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What about the use of Lipsky
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Miscellaneous:
What about the use of Lipsky
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 05:45 pm |        | I like Divia's photo , great boots ! However , I'm sure the face looks familiar from somewhere...
Not wanting to disrespect an American Idol , but I'm wondering how Betty Page got her fringe like that - it always seemed to me that someone put an upturned bowl on her head and cut around it !
Was this the fashion in the 50s ?
I just can't believe that thing about Diemschutz bringing Stride's body to the yard in his cart - too far out.
Graz , why did you get yourself banned - I'm on my own now promoting the ' alternative , used to be the standard theory in the 70s ' theory ! |
Author: Dan Norder
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 06:17 pm | | To any and all,
I do not keep any secrets about who I am. My name is Dan Norder. I do live in Madison Wisconsin, and I have for something like 7 or 8 years now. In fact, there is another Dan Norder in town (at least there used to be, got misplaced calls for him sometimes), which is odd because Norder isn't a very common name. Just yesterday when I went to a doctor for the first time and gave my name as Dan Norder they pulled up a record under that name with a different birthdate, presumably for the same other Dan.
I have never had a previous alias here on these boards and have no clue how anyone could ever come up with that idea. And since he didn't feel the need to explain why he thought that, I think that should stand for itself.
But the fact is I am so unaliased it's not even funny. AOL account? DanNorder@aol.com, had that for 7 or 8 years as well. I also have DanNorder@yahoo.com.
A simple search engine lookup on Dan Norder finds info proving my existence multiple ways.
I also own Norder.com and DanNorder.com. Name, address, phone number and resume are posted there. Who-is record for either domain name shows the same info.
Timsta, I don't know of Laura other than occasionally when someone tries to contact her through emailing norder.com... I didn't realize she was anyone whose name would be familiar. No relation as far as I know, but then I don't keep track of those things well, since relations with my father are strained (oops, I'm sure someone will try to use that as evidence that I'm the Ripper, heh).
Martin, if Graziano felt like insulting you too then I know I'm in good company.
Divia, my phone number is listed all over if you want it, but you're likely to only get an answering machine as I screen almost all calls. Especially ones from people calling me the Ripper or some modern ne'er-do-well of the same stripe :-) Email is always the best way to reach me.
Anyway, enough about me, back to the topic....
Seems to me it could have been Lizzie instead of Lipski. Or not. But I'm fairly certain Schwartz was not the Ripper nor an accomplice.
Dan |
Author: Timsta
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 06:34 pm | | Dan:
That was a joke.
Conservative Party conferences are well-known for people banging on about 'law and order' (and the lack of both under the Labour Party, naturally). This is often satirized in the English press as the mythical 'Laura Norder'.
I'm sure exactly the same thing happened back in 1888, with Warren taking the place of Labour.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Dan Norder
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 06:48 pm | | Waitaminute, Laura Norder isn't a real person? Why do I keep getting her mail? I think maybe someone is using that as a pen name then. She seemed active on environmental isues or something, LOL.
Learn something new everyday. |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 07:50 pm | | Welcome to the Casebook , Dan !
' We kinda do things dee-fferently in these parts...'
I'm not sure what was up with Graz , but he could have at least told us who he thought you really were ! |
Author: Garry Ross
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 08:05 pm | | Dan,
Aha!!! Strained relationship with father eh?
Do you carry chalk around with you on certain nights?
Ever hung round a gymnasium?
Ever seen a grown man naked?
oops, that's going way too far off topic
take care
Garry |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 09:39 pm | | | Garry , nobody said Dan had ancient Greek origins ! |
Author: david rhea
Sunday, 18 August 2002 - 10:27 pm | | | Whatever happened to the epithet Lipsky.Who was it said to?Why was it such a derogatory term?It is interesting to me that two references to Jews became a part oh history all in one night of kosher murder, both somewhat inflammatory.Why Lipsky? He confessed to murdering a pregnant woman with nitric acid.Why would this be a slap at Jews? |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 01:42 am | | Dear Jean-Patrick:
I figured that you'd get the joke. I'm a terrible flirt.
Dear Dan:
I prefer email correspondence, myself. I have the attention span of a fruit fly, so I really need hardcopies to follow all the various projects I am working on. Also, I had no intentions of collecting your personal information, but wanted you to know that it has nothing to do with you personally. Therefore, I left the door open in case you *wanted* me to have it. In which case, I probably would have wondered about why you would give a total stranger your info, which would open up a totally different can of worms... I'm a terrible flirt that knows when to stop.
Dear Simon:
I'm sure that the photo looks familiar; did you notice how I don't even try to pass myself off as the wonderful Bettie Page?
Her hairstyle is very representative of the 40's and 50's. It is a blunt cut that is rounded and with her natural curl, it gives that "bowl" impression. Just a note, I *do* own a pair of boots like hers! And a few other variations. Ah, I'm such a terrible flirt with good taste.
Dear Garry:
Do you like movies about gladiators?
Dear David:
People in general prefer to have a reason (skewed as it may be) to hate other ethnic groups. Anti-semitism has been around for a long time, and if you give bigots an excuse to verbalize or even act out their hostilities, they will do so. Brutally. The Jews are not alone in this. Catholics, pagans, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. The list goes on and on. Give people a reason to go on a witchhunt, they will bring out the torches and dogs, and blame anyone in the same category. Remember, Hitler did not invent anti-semitism, he just made it socially acceptable and even government policy.
About the use of "Lipski"... I guess it was used much like "Benedict Arnold" or any other terms that are less than flattering.
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: Jim Leen
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 04:15 am | | Hello Everybody,
With regard to Jews ignoring Gentile laws, palpably absurd notion of course...
"Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may thrive and occupy the land that the Lord your God is giving you." (Deuteronomy 16:20)
Further examples? What about Jesus, a Jew?, given up to the Romans.
Sorry Graziano, your ideals of Talmudic Justice are slightly awry. You may be disappointed to know that an awful lot of English Common Law gushes forth like a spring from Talmudic laws.
Thanking you,
Jim Leen |
Author: Jeff Hamm
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 07:36 am | | Hi David,
I posted a reply to your initial question on Friday 16 (now in the archives above). Divia's example of "Benedict Arnold" is a much better (and clearer) summary of what I take much longer to try and say!
- Jeff |
Author: david rhea
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 09:03 am | | | Benedict Arnold rings of Treason(traitor), not a racial taunt.Lipski though is racial and refers to some aspect of Jew that struck a nerve in East End Whitechapel.All the persons involved in the Lipski matter were Jews.How ,if it is so, does the term have any meaning in the parlance of the time.A Jew killed a Jewish pregnant woman and tried to make it appear that he was a victim as well.How does that become a racial taunt used by Gentiles towards Jews.What does the taunt mean? |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 01:26 pm | | Dear David:
I was just using an example of how a name comes to mean something negative and used as a derogatory term. I suppose one could say that "Uncle Tom" works the same way as well, but that would be more like calling "one of your own" a traitor.
I don't know, it's fairly obvious to me (and I don't know if I should be glad about that) how it was used as a racial slur. Our society has changed so much that it hasn't really changed at all. I can't think of a modern parallel to "Lipski", but I have heard people speak of "Pulling an OJ (Simpson)", "going postal (disgruntled employee)", and "giving/receiving a Monica (Lewinsky)". These people have become synonymous with certain acts and these acts have been personified with their names/professions. And while these are not exactly racial slurs, there is a certain negative connotation regarding their names.
Lipski committed a despicable act and unfortunately it colored the entire Jewish community in Victorian London. These days, I don't think that people would be so obvious to publicly verbalize the connection between acts of crime and an entire race, but behind closed doors... who knows?
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: david rhea
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 02:48 pm | | Thank you; Now what did the epithet Lipski mean? The Jews are bad people who kill defenseless pregnant women. How would that fit in with the murder of Stride? We use O.J.as one who got away with murder because of race and smart lawyers.Not so Lipski. If you were a Jew in 1888 Whitechapel and somebody called you a Lipski what would you think they meant?Do you believe Lipski was aimed at Schwartz or the man with the pipe?Is there any connection between Lipski and Juwes as epithets? What are they.You and Mr. Hamm
are the only ones who want to stick with the subject.Graziano says that the event never happened, at least in Schwartz's case.I think it did, but am not clear what was being said.Are you?Tell me. |
Author: david rhea
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 02:51 pm | | | Excuse me for this add on----Not in generalities but specifically as it relates to the Jack the Ripper Case---David |
Author: Dan Norder
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 03:06 pm | | David,
I think you are concentrating too much on a relative triviality. "Lipski" is just an anti-Jewish insult. You keep trying to ask what it means, and it's alreeady been explained to you several times over. Lipski was a Jew and killed someone. The name was later used to insult people. There's nothing more to know.
It's like trying to figure out the exact meaning of "Eat S*** and Die!" Is the eating supposed to cause you to die, or is the dying an unrelated add on? Hw would you eat it? Where would it come from?
It doesn't matter, it's just something people yell at each other out of hate.
Who was it yelled at? We don't know. Could have been pipe man, could have been Schwartz, it could have actually been "Lizzie!" yelled at Liz.
Is there a connection to Juwes? Juwes is just Jews spelled wrong, Lipski was an insult aimed at Jews, that's about it. Don't fall into the trap of trying to find Juwes as a real word somewhere. It's possible, but doesn't seem likely. It sure as aces isn't a reference to Freemason lore.
Dan |
Author: david rhea
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 03:24 pm | | | Thank you for your answer ex cathedra.If it weren't for this instance you would never have known that as said this commom epithet was applied to Jews, but you are wrong in assuming that it was just a slur. It referred, I think, to something more serious---Anarchism/bombings/uprisings etc.If Jack the Ripper hurled this at Schwartz there was some hatred behind the remark and pointed to something else than a woman's murder. After all Lipski's two workers were first implicated in the use of a nitric acid brew used in making explosives and not umbrellas.Lipski might have taken the plunge at martyrdom to turn eyes somewhere else.The Angels themselves could have been caught up in it.What is trivial to you is not trivial to me,and I don't appreciate your condescending attitude.If that is what you want two can play that game. |
Author: Dan Norder
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 03:44 pm | | David,
You wrote:
"you are wrong in assuming that it was just a slur."
OK, so, I guess my question then is, if you think you know what the word means, why are you asking other people over and over what they think it means? If your intent is to try to make a point, make the point, don't waste the time of the people trying to answer a question for you when it is now obvious you don't want the question answered.
"If Jack the Ripper hurled this at Schwartz there was some hatred behind the remark and pointed to something else than a woman's murder."
This was before the murder. It's not pointing at a murder. It's not pointing at a conspiracy. It's just a slur.
If you have an alternate theory, present it.
"After all Lipski's two workers were first implicated in the use of a nitric acid brew used in making explosives and not umbrellas."
You seem to be proposing that there is more meaning to the term in this one instance than the people of the day gave to it normally. This is like saying that if a schoolkid calls another boy a Bendict Arnold that it's not just that he was a traitor over some perceived childish slight but that maybe it really was a reference to a wartime betrayal involving the British that this boy pulled off somehow.
"What is trivial to you is not trivial to me,and I don't appreciate your condescending attitude. If that is what you want two can play that game."
Oh, please, another person getting upset out of nowhere and vowing to retaliate. What is it with people and their tempers here.
The problem in this case is that you were asking questions and either ignoring the answers or not following along. I tried to point this out to you. I did not mean it to be condescending. I was just trying to explain it in very simple terms to someone who appeared not to understand the previous simple explanations.
If the situation is instead that you were asking rhetorical questions and are hoping to present a theory of the true meaning of the word Lipski as used in this instance as it differs from the commonly used meaning at the time, please present your theory and evidence to support it, as it ought to be interesting.
Dan |
Author: david rhea
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 05:53 pm | | | so be it |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 07:02 pm | | As I see it , ' Lipski ' was a derogatory name for a Jewish person ( probably reserved for Jewish men ) and a term of insult. By comparing the insulted person to the murderer Lipski it was reminding them of the shame that case brought on the Jewish community in London.
I'm wondering if the man who shouted ' Lipski ' wasn't actually saying to Schwartz , " Oi you , come here ". If he had have done , Schwartz might have been told to go away in no uncertain terms , or strongarmed out of the area. |
Author: Timsta
Monday, 19 August 2002 - 07:51 pm | | I gather (from Tully, although I have not checked sources) that Schwartz spoke no English (hence the friend acting as interpreter when he presented himself at Leman Street).
If that's the case, isn't it possible that 'Lipski' was the one word Schwartz recognised from a longer utterance? I think we generally picture Stride's assailant shouting "LIPSKI!", whereas I think it quite possible that in fact he shouted "something something mumble LIPSKI!"
I note that the execrable "From Hell" movie uses the line "What the [expletive] are you looking at, Lipski?"
If the assailant was addressing Pipeman, he could of course have said "Watch out for the Lipski!" or "Get the [expletive] Lipski!" or something. Was "Lipski" used as a noun? (Guess we'll never know.)
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Tuesday, 20 August 2002 - 03:38 am | | Dear David:
Thank you; Now what did the epithet Lipski mean? The Jews are bad people who kill defenseless pregnant women. How would that fit in with the murder of Stride? We use O.J.as one who got away with murder because of race and smart lawyers.Not so Lipski. If you were a Jew in 1888 Whitechapel and somebody called you a Lipski what would you think they meant?Do you believe Lipski was aimed at Schwartz or the man with the pipe?Is there any connection between Lipski and Juwes as epithets? What are they.You and Mr. Hamm
are the only ones who want to stick with the subject.Graziano says that the event never happened, at least in Schwartz's case.I think it did, but am not clear what was being said.Are you?Tell me.
Let's take this one step at a time, shall we?
1.Now what did the epithet Lipski mean?
It is my understanding that the Lipski case set off a wave of anti-semitism and the name "Lipski" became a anti-semitic slur throughout the East End. To my knowledge, there isn't any specific definition to the term "Lipski".
2. How would that fit in with the murder of Stride?
Well, I think of it as being used as someone might say "What are you looking at, a-hole?". It doesn't have anything to do with Stride's murder, just the attacker hurling an insult to make the poor man go away. That's just my opinion, of course.
3. If you were a Jew in 1888 Whitechapel and somebody called you a Lipski what would you think they meant?
I wouldn't think that it had a specific definition, I would think that the person was trying to insult me. The term was apparently used before the murder of Stride, and I suppose before the Ripper murders in general.
4. Do you believe Lipski was aimed at Schwartz or the man with the pipe?
I believe that it was aimed at Schwartz.
5. Is there any connection between Lipski and Juwes as epithets? What are they.
Not to my knowledge.
6. You and Mr. Hamm are the only ones who want to stick with the subject.Graziano says that the event never happened, at least in Schwartz's case.I think it did, but am not clear what was being said.Are you?Tell me.
Well, this statement may not be directed at me specifically, but I will say refer back to #1 and 2.
I think that we have tried to answer your questions as best as we can, David. I don't know what else you expect from us. Not one of us can give a definitive answer as to the definition to "Lipski" other than it was used in Victorian times as an insult. If I call you a "turd in a birdbath", it would mean that I think you are foul. If I called you "Lipski" it would mean that I think you are an evil Jew.
Excuse me for this add on----Not in generalities but specifically as it relates to the Jack the Ripper Case
I don't think that the use of "Lipski" specifically relates to the Ripper case. Then again, I don't think that the Ripper killed Stride, either.
I have read the rest of the posts previous to this one, and I have to agree with Dan. We have tried to answer your question and you keep repeating it. Apparently we are not able to answer your question to your satisfaction, or rather, we aren't saying what you want to hear. Then it appears that you already knew what it meant, that it had a deeper meaning than what we thought, and had your own theory. Well, I could never post a better answer than what Dan already did so I won't try. *tips hat to Dan*.
Your posts smack of bear-baiting and I don't understand this. Why don't we turn this discussion back to a sharing of ideas and theories? I am sure that you would have much to contribute to the discussion and I would find your theories interesting.
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: Jim Leen
Tuesday, 20 August 2002 - 04:46 am | | Hello Everybody,
David, I have to go along with the consensus that Lipski was just racial abuse. If you want a contemporary parallel I can offer "Taliban" being used to insult coloured people, irrespective of their religion, around this neck of the woods.
Much like murder, hatred never goes away.
Thanking you
Jim Leen |
Author: Jeff Hamm
Tuesday, 20 August 2002 - 07:57 am | | Hi,
I doubt we can ever really know the exact "concept" that was being expressed by the use of "Lipski" as an insult. We know about the crime he committed, we know there was unrest and dispute over his conviction and there was a rise in anti-semitic mood surrounding it. The population divided itself along "us and them" lines, with the Jewish population concerned about a prosecution that may have been motivated by predjudice and the gentiles horrified by the nature of the murder (this is not to imply that the Jewish population wasn't also horrified by the nature of the murder, I'm only trying to describe how the "lines might have been perceived"). And finally, we also have a direct statement that Lipski was used as a racial insult towards Jews.
So, we know that Lipski's name did become a racial insult specific to Jews, but we have only one instance from which to infer "what it specifically meant". Not only do we have only one instance of it's use, we don't even have it in a sentence. Just an isolated word used on it's own. (Possibly, as previously suggested, because Schwatz's English was so bad it was the only word he knew! Suggesting it was common enough that even he recognised it).
Given how little data we have on how it was used, and in what contexts it was used, all we can do is speculate on what aspects of the original events are supposed to be conveyed. It could just be "you disgust me" because the crime was horrible and disgusting.
Because there is no other data that can provide a clue as to what saying "Lipski" implied, other than it was rude, we have nothing to build a real theory on. All we can assume is that by shouting "Lipski" at Schwartz (which is who I think it was said to, although it may have been shouted at both Schwartz and "pipe man"), it was simply a challange issued to scare him/them off. Anything more than that become more complicated than the data can support. We would need more to support a more specific interpretation. There's nothing wrong in us all speculating on possible interpretations, but in the end, all we'll agree on is that there are lots of things from the original Lipski case that could be used in a derogitory mannor.
In the Goulstan Street thread, I've speculated that there could be a link if part of the insult includes a gentile reference to the Jewish community's concern that Lipski was railroaded. The gentiles might have seen this as "not accepting blame", which is one possible interpretation of the graffito. It's a purely speculative link that can't be proved, nor even shown to have any real support, because we have no contemporary definition of Lipski other than it's an insult (and the above is insulting). This link is also weak at best because we have no way of truly knowing if the graffito was in fact written by the murderer of Eddowes. And furthermore, it's a matter of debate whether or not Stride and Eddowes were even killed by the same person!
Anyway, the JtR is filled with all sorts of frustrating bits like this. Much of what we want to know is missing, or not recorded. Tossing about ideas, as we are, won't actually tell us exactly what was implied, but it may give us a general idea. And from that general idea, which may come from discussing how people could turn the Lipski crime into a slurr, we might get a bit of a feel for the tense atmosphere that existed in Whitchapple. Because it is within a small area that housed all this tension that Jack did what Jack did.
- Jeff |
Author: Jon
Friday, 23 August 2002 - 05:42 pm | | Juwes = Jews
Extract.....
The police attached much importance to the manner in which the word Jews was spelled in this (Grafitto) writing. The language of the East-End Jews of London is a hybrid dialect, known as 'Yiddish', and their mode of spelling the word Jews is 'Juwes.'
This the police considered a strong indication that the crime was committed by one of the numerous foreigners by whom the East-End is infested.
Horrors of Whitechapel, London, 1888, pg23.
Regards, Jon |
Author: alex chisholm
Friday, 23 August 2002 - 08:18 pm | | Hi Jon
When the point raised in your extract began to gain currency, the Star, 12 Oct. 1888, p3, had the following to say:
“Dangerous Errors.
A News Agency says: - The police authorities attach a great deal of importance to the spelling of the word “Jews” in the writing on the wall. The language of the Jews in the East-end is a hybrid dialect, known as Yiddish, and their mode of spelling the word Jews would be “Juwes.”
This is absolutely incorrect. A representative of The Star called at the Jewish Chronicle office, and was informed by the editor, and by a responsible member of the staff whose father is a Polish Jew, that the Yiddish word for Jew is Yiddin, the word “Yiddish” meaning, of course, the language of the Yiddins.
Much indignation is felt amongst the Jews at these repeated and unjustifiable attempts to fasten the responsibility for the dastardly crimes on them.”
Best Wishes
alex |
Author: Jon
Friday, 23 August 2002 - 10:37 pm | | Thankyou Alex, actually being that I took the extract from a less than accurate publication I suspected that there were likely a number of inaccuracies in that statement itself.
Your quote tends to support that the police actually did pay attention to some dubious sources in forming an opinion of the character of the murderer.
I thought that this 'Jews = Juwes' subject had been discussed some time ago, maybe last year?, but could not recall what counter argument had been provided.
I could not find the contemporary reports to balance this supposition, thankyou.
regards, Jon |
Author: alex chisholm
Sunday, 25 August 2002 - 08:10 pm | | Hi Jon
Thanks for the thanks, and thank you for the extract you posted.
Likely inaccuracies accepted, such sources offer useful insights into common notions of the time. After all, if the claimed Yiddish connection had not been fairly widely published, there would have been no need for the Star to counter it.
I’m not sure, however, that the police in this instance were paying attention to dubious sources. News Agency claims that ‘a great deal of importance’ was attached to the spelling of Jews owed more, I think, to the lengthy discussion of Goulston-street at the 11 Oct., sitting of Eddowes inquest than any great importance attached to the spelling during the investigation.
Best Wishes
alex |
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