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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
CONFIRMATION OF WITNESSES
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Miscellaneous:
CONFIRMATION OF WITNESSES
Author: richard nunweek
Sunday, 07 July 2002 - 02:31 pm |        | Two of the most talked about witnesses after the death of MJK were George Hutchinson and Caroline Maxwell. The frequently asked question was;
Were one, or both, fabricating the truth?
In 1974, I came across information which at that time, or since, has never been mentioned. I referred this to Colin Wilson (Criminologist) whose first letter to me I quote 'you may have created a bombshell that will shock the criminological world'.
If one takes the statement of Hutchinson, he mentioned MJK said "oh i have lost my hankerchief", and Caroline Maxwell quote "her eyes looked queer like she was suffering with a heavy cold". Considering Hutchinson saw MJK at 02.30am and Caroline Maxwell saw MJK at 08.00am approx. It appears that if these statements are correct the reference to a possibility that she was suffering from a cold is probable.
This confirms both statements making it impossible for MJK to be killed at the Doctors time of death (approx 04.00am).
It is almost certain, as the Police checked, that C.Maxwell was not mistaken on the date, therefore only a lie are we questioning.
Comments please!
Richard |
Author: graziano
Sunday, 07 July 2002 - 03:15 pm | | Bravissimo!
I personnally never came up to this kind of statement by Caroline Maxwell, but if she did your reasoning is, as far as I am concerned, well done.
Still, it was November and more than one person could have catched the cold.
Mary Kelly and the person seen by Caroline Maxwell could both have catched the cold.
Because that Caroline Maxwell was lying or was confusing dates seems really incredible, I convene.
But are we sure that the woman Caroline Maxwell knew with the name of Mary Kelly was the real one ?
She said she knew her for her staying at the lodging-house and for having spoken to her only twice.
We do not have any corroboration that the real Mary Kelly frequented lodging-houses in the last four months of her life.
What for, anyway ?
To meet clients there while Joe Barnett was home ?
To go and have supper ?
Don't know, I have my doubts.
As you know in this environment it was easy to make you know by another person's name.
Good bye. Graziano. |
Author: richard nunweek
Monday, 08 July 2002 - 12:55 pm | | Graziano,
Thanks for your comments, The statement i am referring to from Maxwell is mentioned in the Leonard Matters book, around 1928.
Obviously Maxwell could have been mistaken but MJK was such a familar figure in that area it is highly unlikely, especially as Mrs Maxwell ran the lodging house exactely opposite.
Thanks once again
Richard |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Monday, 08 July 2002 - 01:38 pm | | Hello Richard. I could find no reference to Caroline Maxwell stating that, "her eyes looked queer like she was suffering with a heavy cold", in Leonard Matters book, The Mystery of Jack the Ripper. Can you provide a page number for this quote? It is possible that I have missed it. I have to admit that I have seen no reference anywhere that Maxwell actually said anything like this and I have to doubt that she ever did.
A second small point. The doctors did not set the time of death of Mary Kelly at 4:00 a.m., the medical opinion is confusing and contradictory, it was the inquest testimony of Sarah Lewis and the Elizabeth Prater who claimed to have heard a cry of "Oh Murder" at around 4:00 a.m. that has led subsequent authors to fix the time then.
Wolf. |
Author: Dan Norder
Tuesday, 09 July 2002 - 02:18 am | | Assuming the quote about her eyes looking queer is legit, it could just be that she was all red and puffy from crying. She was about to be evicted, after all.
But then since you bring it up to try to give credence to the witness statement putting her alive at the time, it wouldn't really matter which were true.
(Hey, maybe Jack played a Hannibal Lector and cut off Mary's face and wore it as a mask and that's why her eyes looked odd - because they were really the killer's eyes looking through the gaps in the cold, dead flesh!! ---- Nah.)
The whole "Oh Murder" thing being chosen as the time of attack has always struck me as patently absurd. Sure, it's conceivable that it could have been, but seems highly uncertain if not outright unlikely.
Of all the witness statements, Maxwell's seems to be one of the most reliable out of a long string of unreliable ones. She is talking about seeing and interacting with someone she knew and not some stranger. I tend to believe she would know what she was talking about.
Dan |
Author: richard nunweek
Tuesday, 09 July 2002 - 01:44 pm | | I havent read the book for over 20 years but is is definately in there. It is round about when Maxwell is describing her clothing and general manner.
I totally agree in your last paragraph Dan, that is she is a credible witness. What i have been trying to prove is that MJK may not have been killed in the early hours of the 9th, but sometime after 08.00am. |
Author: NR Tomasheski
Tuesday, 09 July 2002 - 06:05 pm | | I've often thought that Maxwell could be mistaken about who it was that she saw that morning. Perhaps she heard, "The bird from Number 13 was killed by The Ripper!", and Maxwell thinks not of Kelly but of Harvey, or Venturney (or whoever the other ladies were that had stayed with Kelly)and then thinks, "Well, no, I saw her that morning."
For this reason I think the maroon shawl may be important; was it found in the room or not? Was it the same maroon shawl or not?
However I also strongly believe that Mary Kelly's hair was in fact as distinctive as we are led to believe. A lot depends on why, precisely, Maxwell thought she saw the dead woman, and we don't seem to know for sure. If Maxwell thought she saw "Ginger", or "the redhead from Number 13", then that's different from thinking she saw "the woman from Number 13."
Agreed that the time of death is not clearly established by the doctor's reports. The other victims were killed in the wee morning hours, but then they were also killed out of doors. We cannot extrapolate a whole lot from the earlier murders to that of Kelly.
I have been meaning to research this theory in depth (not that I expect to be able to go very deep) but as long as we are talking about it here, I'll chime in.
Sure wish I had some references here, though.
NRT |
Author: Timsta
Tuesday, 09 July 2002 - 07:32 pm | | NRT:
Garry Wroe makes a plausible case along the same lines in his e-book "JTR: Person or Persons Unknown", here:
http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/garrywroe_full2.html?show=all
I suggest searching for the name "Catherine Picket" as a starting point.
Since Mrs Maxwell declared herself at the Kelly inquest to be the wife of Henry Maxwell, a lodging house deputy (presumably the LH in question being 14 Dorset St, which she gives as her address), I think it likely that she was a "respectable woman" and as such possible that she may have chosen not to associate *too* closely with "unfortunates". This may help explain any confusion as to the identity of the woman she saw on the morning of the 9th. In other words, I doubt they were "firm friends", as a casual reading of Maxwell's testimony might possibly imply.
Do we have any details of 14 Dorset St (name of this establishment, etc.)? Any indication that MJK might have resided there at any point? A cursory scan of Paley (plus some other references) seems to yield the following addresses for MJK after her arrival in London in 1884:
Unknown 'West End brothel'
Ratcliff Highway/St Georges St (with 'Mrs Buki', and possibly at other residences)
Stepney (with 'Morganstone')
Breezer's Hill (with Mrs Carthy)
'Pennington St brothel' (possibly residing there? Breezer's Hill is off Pennington St; and the two locations may in fact be identical: right now I can't locate the reference stating that Mrs Carthy's was a "bad sort of house" or words to that effect)
Bethnal Green (with Joseph Fleming; late-1886 onwards)
Cooney's Lodging House, Thrawl St (at least on Good Friday, 8 April, 1887, when she meets Barnett)
Barnett's lodgings in George St (does anyone know the precise address?)
Paternoster Court (with Barnett)
Brick Lane (with Barnett, again, do we have an address?)
Miller's Court
(I'm sure those more knowlegeable than I can flesh out this list and correct any inaccuracies.)
On the face of it, I don't necessarily see why the wife of a lodging house owner would necessarily be familiar with MJK during 1888 as she seems to have been in continuous 'private' lodging throughout the period. Mrs Maxwell states 'I have known deceased woman during the past 4 ["or 5" deleted] months, she was known as Mary Jane' so it doesn't seem as if she is referring to any possible acquaintanceship during the previous year.
Note, interestingly, that she refers to MJK merely as "Mary Jane" (no "Kelly") in both her statement and testimony. (Although she does state "since Joe Barnett left her she has obtained her living as an unfortunate", which seems to imply some familiarity with MJK's living arrangements.) Read into that what you will. 
There's another interesting quote in Maxwell's statement, the significance of which only just hit me:
"...about 9am [9th Nov] I then noticed deceased standing outside Ringers public house, she was talking to a man, age I think about 30, height about 5ft 5in, stout, dressed as a Market Porter, I was some distance away and am doubtful whether I could identify him. The deceased wore a dark dress velvet body, and a coloured wrapper around her neck."
She later states in her inquest testimony:
"...I saw her outside the Britannia talking to a man - the time was then [9.05 - 9.15am, 9th Oct] - I could not describe the man I did not pass them I went into my house I saw them in the distance, I am certain it was deceased, the man was not a tall man - he had on dark clothes and a sort of plaid coat - I could not say what hat he had on - Mary Jane had a dark skirt - velvet body - and marone shawl & no hat..."
Both versions of events seem to indicate Maxwell to be some distance from Kelly/not-Kelly at the time. Although it's often easier to recognize someone we know, as opposed to identify someone we don't, this must surely raise some doubts as to the Ringers' sighting, at least. Maxwell gives no description of MJK's clothing during their earlier meeting, so it's not possible to infer that she may have recognized her from her clothing at the earlier encounter.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Wednesday, 10 July 2002 - 01:14 pm | | NRT et all, I wrote an article published in the July 2001 edition of Ripper Notes titled, Screams of Murder in which I take a detailed look at both the Medical and Witness evidence surrounding the death of Mary Kelly. It may interest you.
Wolf. |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Wednesday, 10 July 2002 - 05:23 pm | | Richard, I still can find no reference in Leonard Matters book, The Mystery of Jack the Ripper that mentions Caroline Maxwell let alone that has her saying, "her eyes looked queer like she was suffering with a heavy cold". However, I did find this in Donald McCormick's 1959 book, The Identity of Jack the Ripper:
"Mrs. Maxwell in her statement admitted she had ‘only spoken to Kelly twice'; she could not have been able to identify her all that easily. Also she agreed that Kelly was ‘all muffled up, as though she had a cold' ; this would suggest that the ‘woman' she had seen was trying to disguise her features."
Is this the quote that you were thinking of? If so, then I am afraid that it is just another example of McCormick's imagination rather than something that Caroline Maxwell actually said.
Wolf. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Thursday, 11 July 2002 - 01:49 am | | NRT,
Just for the record, I've read numerous theories, ideas, and write-ups regarding the time of Mary Kelly's death and the events leading up to it, and to this point I consider Wolf's article 'Screams of Murder' to be the definitive work on the matter. You should definitely get that issue of Ripper Notes, which indeed is from July 2001 and also includes Dave Yost's 'Long vs Cadoche' which compliments Wolf's piece as being the most convincing attempt at making sense of the events surrounding Chapman's murder that you're ever likely to read. You should subscribe to RN, in fact. But if you're too broke, too cheap, or just can't wait to read Wolf's piece, I believe you can still check it out for free at www.casebook-productions.org.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
P.S. Just for the record, I believe Mrs. Maxwell saw Mary Kelly at the time she stated she did. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Thursday, 11 July 2002 - 01:58 am | | Richard,
No evidence exists to corroborate the quote of 'a heavy cold' allegedly attributed to Mrs. Maxwell by Leonard Matters. Certainly this is not mentioned in the inquest records. As Mr. Matters, along with most writers of his time, was prone to spice up the facts with fiction, we must assume that Mrs. Maxwell never said such a thing unti proven otherwise by a more reliable source.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Thursday, 11 July 2002 - 03:46 pm | | With regards to Wolf's article, I should mention that the Casebook Productions website is, sadly, to be discontinued. I am told that some of the more useful research features may at some point be incorporated here into the Casebook, which I hope will happen.
However, Stephen Ryder has generously offered to do for RN what he does for "Ripperologist;" namely, offer a site where the latest issue can be skimmed, back issues referenced and orders taken. At the moment, none of the current or back issues are available; the July 2002 issue will be within the next fortnight or so, and issues from No 1 will be available on a limited basis as I can archive them.
Meanwhile, Richard, should you care for a reprint of "Screams of Murder" or "Long vs Cadoche," please contact me.
Yours,
Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Editor, "Ripper Notes" |
Author: Garry Wroe
Thursday, 11 July 2002 - 09:09 pm | | Hi Timsta.
Caroline Maxwell and her husband worked next door to the building in which they resided. Also, I wouldn't assume 'respectability' on her part since many low lodging house deputies were discharged prisoners. Hope this helps.
Garry. |
Author: richard nunweek
Friday, 12 July 2002 - 07:16 am | | Hello Wolf,
With reference to Caroline Maxwell's statement referring to the 'heavy cold'. Only two books i can remember not reading were Tom Cullen's 'Autumn of Terror' and Donald McCormack's '1959 publication'. Therefore I have not been mistaken in my earlier theory.
Are you sure you have read the original Leonard Matters, as i believe it was a small pocket sized green book (hardback). The phrase "her eyes looked queer" was most certainly acurate. Therefore McCormack was only backing up what he had also researched. It appeared that this comment by Maxwell was part of a statement made to the Police, not a newspaper statement.
Does anybody know if the original statement from Maxwell existed in the Scotland Yard files? Or was it one of many to have gone missing!
Richard |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Friday, 12 July 2002 - 01:07 pm | | Richard.
I am sure that I have read the original Leonard Matters as I own a rare and very expensive first edition as well as a copy of the 1964 Arrow paperback. W.H. Allen did put out a hardback re-issue with green boards in 1948, however, I can still find no mention of Caroline Maxwell's statement that you mentioned in your post.
It is doubtful that Matters would highlight any of Maxwell's testimony as he describes Mary Kelly being murdered by Dr. Stanley in the very early morning of the 9th . I can't see him then going on to suggest that Kelly was alive hours later. When Matters discusses the inquest witnesses and their testimony, Maxwell is left out.
As for Caroline Maxwell's statement to the police and her inquest testimony, both are still in existence. Here is Maxwell's testimony at the inquest that deals with Kelly's illness:
"I am positive I saw deceased I spoke to her I said why Mary what brings you up so early she said Oh! I do feel so bad ! Oh Carry I feel so bad ! she knew my name -I asked her to have a drink, she said Oh no I have just had a drink of ale and have brought it all up, it was in the road I saw it - as she said this she motioned with her head and I concluded she meant she had been to the Britannia at the corner. I left her saying I pitied her feelings."
Here is her testimony regarding Kelly's illness in her written statement to the police:
"I said to her, what brings you up so early, she said, I have the horrors of drink upon me, as I have been drinking for some days past.I said why don't you go to Mrs. Ringers (meaning the Public House at the corner of Dorset Street called the Britannia) and have ½ pint of beer, she said I have been there and had it, but I have brought it all up again, at the same time she pointed to some vomit in the roadway."
Wolf. |
Author: Tom Wescott
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 12:46 am | | CM Digrazia,
Since I haven't yet received a response from you to my emails, I'm forced to get your attention here. Have you received any of the emails I've sent lately?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Martin Fido
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 07:13 am | | Tom - there is a certain degree of hell going on in the world of e-mails as some ISPs have adopted extremely blunt instruments to eliminate spamming. (It seems they may have to, because the spammers are pushing so much junk they can crash servers completely). But this has meant that, e.g., to have reliable e-mail contact with Paul and Keith I have had to change my server, as theirs are two that get suspected of having openrelay ports admitting spammers - (definitely wrongly in Paul's case; possible rightly in Keith's) and so they were bounced either intermittently or persistently, without my receiving any indication that this has happened.
Something like this may be cutting you off from CMD.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Timsta
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 03:03 pm | | Garry:
Good point. I had long suspected that 'lodging house deputies' might have had shady pasts (probably from reading between the lines of People of the Abyss).
Discharged prisoners, eh? Such as those who had served time for an assault on a woman, indecent exposure, etc., perhaps?
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Timsta
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 03:05 pm | | Garry again:
Regardless, I still think Caroline Maxwell may have considered herself "a class above" the "unfortunates", Victorian society being as stratified as it was.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: alex chisholm
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 06:01 pm | | Hi Tom
Join the club, old mate.
I’ve been unable to get a response to emails from CMD for the past couple of months, which, as you might imagine, has been rather inconvenient.
Still, as I know Christopher-Michael wouldn’t dare ignore me, the problems described by Martin must be to blame.
Best Wishes
alex |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 06:20 pm | | Tom -
Many apologies, old friend (it's hard to say that, though, without thinking of William Shatner overemoting "OLD - - FRIEND!" to Ricardo Montalban in "Wrath of Khan") - I haven't seen any e-mails from you at all. I hope it's been nothing important that you've been trying to reach me for. The same with Alex - I only learned this week from a mutual friend that Alex's e-mails have not been coming through to me either. For the moment, try reaching me at cdigrazia@ajh.org, which is always a working address.
BTW - for all you RN subscribers, the July issue will be in the mail later next week. It's being held back to incorporate two late ads and a "Short Take" from Bernard Brown. So keep hope alive and your breath baited.
CMD |
Author: Garry Wroe
Saturday, 13 July 2002 - 07:05 pm | | Hi Timsta.
Despite legislation aimed at eradicating the more unsavoury elements of lodging house life, it did very little to improve those establishments at the lower end of the market - and those in Whitechapel and Spitalfields were very much at the lower end of the market. More than a decade separated the Ripper murders and Jack London's survey of the locality. Yet still London was appalled by the conditions he encountered, particularly the all-pervading stench of the doss house which he found nauseating. Small wonder, then, that discharged prisoners were often placed in charge of such establishments.
As for Mrs Maxwell, I can't help with any specific biographical data. But I do seem to recall that the idiosyncratic way in which she presented her evidence before the Kelly inquest caused some amusement. I think that she was a bit of a chatterbox and she certainly seems to have held her own when Coroner MacDonald chided her over the contention that she saw Kelly on the morning of the murder. If memory serves me correctly, a description of her inquest behaviour was carried by the Illustrated Police News in the issue dated either the 17th or 24th of November. Unfortunately, I no longer have my research material so I'm trusting to recollection here.
But I definitely think that the Catherine Picket connection is worth following up, particularly as she would have exited Miller's Court at about the time that Carrie Maxwell claimed to have spoken to Kelly.
I'll let you know if I remember anything else.
Garry Wroe. |
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