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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Was He a Media Invention?
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
Was He a Media Invention?
Author: david rhea
Wednesday, 30 January 2002 - 10:12 am |        | | Stead thought D'Onston one of the the most brilliant men he knew. He thought he might be Jack the Ripper. D'Onston wrote for his paper and perhaps influenced him in some of his views about the ripper murders. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Wednesday, 30 January 2002 - 08:57 pm | | | David, Yes and when one looks at the men Stead knew one starts to realize just how remarkable a person D'Onson must have been.Stead was the confident of Presidents and was on his way to America in 1912 at the invitation of President Taft when his ship Titanic hit an iceburg and sank.Stead did not survive. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Thursday, 31 January 2002 - 09:08 pm | | | Hello David and Ivor: The name I gave as a close pal of Stead was not D'Onson but TP O'Connor, the editor of the Star newspaper. You got the spelling error due to my formatting problem from cutting and pasting my message from MS Word. It shows the apostrophe as a weird O-like symbol which I didn't correct when I did a preview of my message. Sorry about that. Best regards, Alastair |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Thursday, 31 January 2002 - 09:49 pm | | | Hi Alastair, Thats quite alright.. |
Author: Martin Fido
Wednesday, 06 February 2002 - 08:13 am | | A tiny point re Stead. As a genuine evangelical christian he was perfectly equipped to more or less initiate what became prurient yellow press journalism. He was genuinely interested and disapproving of sensational crimes and misdemeanours which he saw as sinful. So he wrote about them. His famous 'Maiden Tribute' series arose from a conscious and genuine hatred of the sexual exploitation of little girls, whether or not he had an unconscious fascination with the idea. And so he took a proper pride in having forced a raising of the age of consent AND having taken a prison sentence for the supposed formal offence of not having checked with the father of the girl he put at the centre. (Of course he knew he was being punished for having pulled back the carpet and exposed the dirt thereby robbing the disgusting child whoremongers of their pleasures). But as compared with the spurious moralizing of the News of the Screws, he was sincere in his wish to expose and put down sin. You might dislike him and his views and the topics he picked, but he wasn't dliberately looking for sensation merely to raise circulation.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Vaughan Allen
Wednesday, 06 February 2002 - 10:36 am | | Martin,
FWIW I agree, though you might be able to say the same about many who work for the current tabloid press. I know at least one member of the Screws staff who passionately believes in their anti-paedophile campaign and puts opposition to it down to snobbery.
I'm not sure about your last sentence though...yes, he attacked child prostitution because he was genuinely against it, but perhaps he chose to write in a particularly sensationalist way in order to raise circulation not for its own sake, but in order to raise the profile of the campaign? Sensationalism was necessary in this case perhaps?
Ivor,
I know you keep being asked it, but I can't find anywhere...is your book still available? How does one go about ordering it?
Vaughan |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Wednesday, 06 February 2002 - 02:58 pm | | | Hi Vaughan,What books I have left went into storage. It is a condition of my contract with the new publisher that I dont sell any more books under the name of my publishing company. The revised edition will be mass produced and is available during the summer. |
Author: Harry Mann
Thursday, 07 February 2002 - 03:09 am | | Ivor,
If you can't sell your books can you give them away.I'd like one.
H.Mann. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Thursday, 07 February 2002 - 09:23 am | | Thanks Martin Fido for your posting re WT Stead, where you state that he was not deliberately looking for sensation merely to raise circulation. I have been saying this all along in my postings about Stead, perhaps because I am somewhat biased, having a soft spot for him! You state that Stead was perfectly equipped to more or less initiate what became prurient yellow press journalism, and yes, I agree he was in such a position to do this. But I have read lots of back issues of his Pall Mall Gazette--not just the Ripper coverage--and I would not classify his paper as a yellow press tabloid. It might have looked that way due to his new innovations for the PMG, such as the introduction of the personal interview, the clever use of sketch artists and the introduction of headlines. The interviewing technique certainly became the forerunner of investigative journalism. What is often forgotten about the PMG is that it was NOT a mass market tabloid aimed at the lower classes. In fact, his paper was required reading for many of London's upper class elite. He ruffled lots of feathers, but by God, he was not ignored! He was a powerful voice in Britain and had many powerful supporters such as William Morris and Lord Esher.
By the way, I am most impressed with your book, "The Crimes, Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper," and my favorite Ripper suspect is now David Cohen as a result of studying your book. I did have problems, however, in trying to manipulate my way through the typestyle the publishers used. The periods (full stops) are almost invisible and there is no index, at least in my copy. I purchased it when I lived in the U.K. before moving over the pond to live in America. Perhaps later editions corrected this. Forgive my asking, but do you happen to know of any reliable literary agent in the U.S. who would handle historical fiction--London 1888 at the time of Ripper saga?
With kindest regards, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: peter martin
Thursday, 07 February 2002 - 03:50 pm | | Not a media invention but a media embelishment! the idea of a professional man sinking to the lower depths and wreaking havoc in a depraved manner caught the attenion of the locals before the papers added their slant. Plus the fact that their was unrest in the country added to interest (if it were a doctor) among the poor.
I think if their was such a class divide today and the murders took place today their would be just as much interest. I'm sure their would be plenty of interst if there were a series of brutal race related murders!
Pete |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Thursday, 07 February 2002 - 09:12 pm | | | Alastair, Stead wrote a piece stating how the murders of Burk and Hare in Scotland were responsible for one infant newspaper to launch itself. The paper in question did very well on the back of the murders. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Friday, 08 February 2002 - 08:35 am | | Ivor, interesting what you say about Stead stating how the Burk and Hare murders helped promote an infant newspaper. Same thing happened with the Star newspaper, founded early in 1888. It's editor, TP O'Connor, ran his presses day and night with the Ripper saga and the sensational coverage by the Star quickly took it to the top of the circulation wars in Fleet Street. It became a rival to Stead's Pall Mall Gazette as far as being the second radical paper in Fleet Street. I say "in Fleet Street" even though the Gazette was situated in Northumberland Street, just off where the Strand joins Trafalgar Square. Was Stead jealous? Who knows because Stead and O'Connor were, in fact, good friends.
All the best, Alastair |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 08 February 2002 - 01:36 pm | | Hi, Ivor and Alastair:
A point of information that one or both of you may be able to answer. I have seen a number of references to a William Stead who was the chairman of the Spitalfields Vigilance Committee. I don't mean Lusk's committee, variously called either the Whitechapel or Mile End Vigilance Committee, I mean the evidently separate committee for Spitalfields that is mentioned in contemporary newspaper reports (e.g., see East London Observer, Saturday, 17 August 1889). Is that man one and the same person as W. T. Stead, or were they different individuals and it is just a coincidence that the two men had connections to the case and a similar name?
Another interesting but confusing aspect is that vigilance committees had evidently been set up earlier in the 1880s to combat prostitution, and the Spitalfields group may have been more that type of organization than a group begun as a response to the murders. If there is a link to prostitution for the Spitalfields group, that could explain W. T. Stead's membership in the organization. Whew!
Thanks in advance for your answer. And next week's trivia question will be..... 
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Saturday, 09 February 2002 - 12:45 am | | Hi Chris and Alastair,Chris You have got me on that one.It is a very interesting picture you paint though.We know W.T. Stead had fought a cause againest child prostitution.It is also known that he spent a lot of time in the area, ie The Ratcliffe Highway and Jack's hunting ground. I wonder if it is worth asking Grace she may know, will you contact her or shall I ?
Alastair,Yes indeed you are so right about The Star which is a classic example of a paper making it's reputation and circulation on a murder story.Stead may have been very wary of The Star if todays antics on the behaviour of certain papers towards each other are anything to go by. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Saturday, 09 February 2002 - 08:21 am | | Hi Chris George. From my studies of W.T. Stead I know of no reference suggesting he was the Stead on the vigilance committee you mention. You say the East London Observer and other papers mentioned the name as William Stead, which gives me a clue to it NOT being W.T. Stead for this reason: W.T. Stead was always known as "W.T. Stead" and never by William or Thomas. Never.
Hope this helps. All the best, Alastair |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 09 February 2002 - 12:55 pm | | Hi, Alastair and Ivor:
Thank you for your responses. Alastair, you may be right that the fact that the president of the Spitalfields Vigilance Committee was known as "William Stead" and W. T. Stead was always known by the name "W. T. Stead" provides us with the answer to the problem. Ivor, I would welcome you contacting Grace on this matter to get some clarification if she has an answer or knows where we might get an answer.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Saturday, 09 February 2002 - 07:34 pm | | In reading the material above regarding W.T.Stead,
there are aspects that are ignored or glossed
over.
His sanctimonious personality is apparently
approved of - one wonders why? In the 1880s and
1890s, Stead moved against "sin" spelled with
capital letters, and one seriously wonders if his
efforts were really beneficial or kind or even
altruistic. Stead was a leader of the newspaper
pack who destroyed Sir Charles Dilke's career in
1886 when Dilke (who was supposed to be Gladstone's successor as head of the Liberal Party)was named by Fanny Crawford as her lover.
The evidence on this has been seriously questioned
by historians, and Ms Crawford labelled (at best)
a habitual liar. Interestingly the district of
Chelsea remained faithful to Dilke by re-electing
him to Parliament until he died in 1911. I recommend the biography of Dilke by Roy Jenkins.
The business with Dilke was repeated a few years
later when (despite entreaties by Irish Home Rule
supporters) Stead went after Charles Steward
Parnell for the O'Shea Divorce Case. I recall
reading (I wish I can recall where - it was in
some volume on Parnell) how Stead played a contemptible game of cat and mouse with two Home
Rulers on this matter, asking them (with a
sickening grin) should he or shouldn't he destroy
Parnell.
Stead did not go after one hero of the period,
probably because he was too committed to him, or
he did not want to be hung by an angry mob. He
was the newspaper man who interviewed General Charles "Chinese" Gordon, and convinced a dubious
Gladstone to send the General to the Sudan to
save Khartoum. Stead apparently saw nothing wrong
about those rumours about Gordon and good looking
street boys, and after Gordon's death at Khartoum
he would have been really stupid to mention them.
Stead did help out a few people in his newspaper
wars of the period. Most noteworthy was Mrs.
Langworthy, whose husband managed to deprive her
of support through bad laws, and Israel Lipski,
who (despite being Jewish - Stead disliked Jews)
he championed as not having had a fair criminal
trial in 1887. However, Martin Friedman's excellent study of the Lipski case (THE TRIALS OF
ISRAEL LIPSKI) suggest that Stead's venom was
directed against the judge in the case (Justice
Sir James Fitzjames Stephen) on personal ground.
There is also reason to believe that Stead wished
to graft the idea of the fourth estate as a super-
legislature forcing the "other" branches of the
government to do its will.
I am (as one can see from this message) not a Stead lover. In fact, the only thing I can say
for Mr. Stead is that he at least proved that
hyperthermia can kill seventy year old men in
the North Atlantic who choose the wrong liner to
sail on. Unfortunately, nobody was asking him
to prove that.
Jeff Bloomfield |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Sunday, 10 February 2002 - 07:32 am | | To Ivor and Chris on the subject of Stead and vigilance committees: Since my last posted reply to you on the matter I have done a bit more research on it. In the 1972 book, "Crusader in Babylon--W.T. Stead and the Pall Mall Gazette" there is reference to Stead hoping to organize the Vigilance Association of London, but this was well before 1889 and there is no mention of it being in Spitalfields. It was to do with vigilantism in the area of morality and child prostitution. Stead and many others wanted to see the age of consent for girls raised from age 13 to 16. Sex with a 13-year old girl was legal. Stead began his campaign with his "Maiden Tribute" crusade in 1885, which upset a great many people and caused a mob to riot on July 8 1885 outside the Pall Mall Gazette building in Northumberland Street. The Archbishop of Canterbury was critical of Stead's methods but admitted that without Stead's crusade, the Criminal law Amendment Act raising the age of consent to 16 would not have been passed. Even the Archbishop himself called for parents, clergymen and employers to form vigilance committees. All of this seems somewhat removed from press reports in 1889 about a man named William Stead being Chairman of the Spitalfields Vigilance Committee. So, Chris, was this latter committee to do with morality and prostitution? If it was, then yes, the Chairman might well have been W.T. Stead. But 1889 is a bit late for Stead's "Maiden Tribute" crusade, and I repeat what I said in my earlier posting, namely that newspapers and everyone else always referred to Stead as "W.T. Stead" and not as "William Stead." That doesn't mean a newspaper would NOT refer to him as "William Stead" but it is most unlikely.
All the best, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 10 February 2002 - 08:01 am | | | Hi Alastair,Very interesting information that you have gathered there well done.Also the finer point you have made between "William Stead" as opposed to W.T.Stead is well taken.I am awaiting an e-mail from Grace Eckley of "NewStead" to see if she has any news on the subject.Best wishes. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Sunday, 10 February 2002 - 08:24 am | | Goodness Jeff--you really have it in for W.T. Stead! You even throw in a sarcastic comment about his death aboard the Titanic with reference to hyperthermia. Extreme cold is hyPOthermia, but maybe that was a typo. Stead had cabin 89 on C Deck, and those who survived the sinking spoke of Stead being at the forefront with the women and children, helping to put them in the lifeboats. Stead always predicted that he would die in his boots, and so he did. A sad end to a great man.
With regards, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 10 February 2002 - 02:10 pm | | Dear Alistair,
Maybe I am being a little rough on Stead, and
the comment with the mispelling was extremely
sarcastic. Nobody should drown or freeze to death. But nothing I have read about W.T.Stead
makes me like him - sorry about that. He was
an innovative figure in English newspapers in
the 1880s and 1890s, and his "Maiden Tribute"
work was original (if unorthodox, as he learned
in the law courts). However, even this he managed
to turn into an ego trip. On the anniversity of
the beginning of his imprisonment for breaking the
law, Stead would wear a copy of his prison clothes
in the streets of London - to remind everyone of
his sacrifice.
As for his death on Titanic, the only things I
can add to that is that he had predicted (back
in the 1890s) the dangers of the out-of-date
Board of Trade rules about lifeboat space, in a
small story about a shipwreck. I heard he was
helping woman and children into the boats, but I
also recall reading in Lord's A NIGHT TO REMEMBER
that he was seen briefly reading in one of the
lounges, possibly Owen Wister's new best seller,
THE VIRGINIAN.
Jeff |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 10 February 2002 - 04:45 pm | | | Hi Jeff, Yes he did indeed write a piece about a shipwreck which was very 'spooky' inasmuch that he could well have been writing about the Titanic.In fact if people had taken note of his sound advice and acted upon it then the Titanic disaster could have been averted.But human nature being what it is meant that his concerns for human life went unheeded.You can lead horses to water but you cant make them drink.Some things never change even today.If the airlines today had taken note of research carried out at Farnborough Aircraft Establishment in England several years ago then the Twin Towers in New York would still be standing. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Monday, 11 February 2002 - 10:16 am | | Hi Jeff. Okay, you are rough on Stead but then I have to admit he was a most controversial figure! You say he turned his imprisonment into an ego trip, and boy--did he ever! I have a copy of Stead wearing his prison clothes. Interesting what you say about Stead predicting in 1890 about the dangers of inadequate lifeboats in a story about a shipwreck. I also heard somewhere that a book or article came out at that time about a ship called the Titan sinking after hitting an iceberg! I think this was some other author, not Stead. You also say that, according to the book A NIGHT TO REMEMBER by Lord, that Stead was seen reading, maybe THE VIRGINIAN in one of the lounges of Titanic. I didn't know that even though I read A NIGHT TO REMEMBER many years ago and was most impressed with what Lord had to say about the disaster. But anything about Stead would not have registered with me at the time.
With best regards, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Monday, 11 February 2002 - 10:22 am | | Hello Ivor. I'd be interested to hear what Grace Eckley has to say in her Email to you about Stead. By the way, who is Grace Eckley of "NewStead"? What exactly is "NewStead"?
All the best, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 11 February 2002 - 03:18 pm | | | Hi Alastair, I have just heard back from Grace Eckley.She has a magazine which is devoted to W.T.Stead hence the name NewStead.She has just informed me that W.T.Stead is not the William Stead of the SVC. Neither would it be the son of W.T.Stead also named Wiliam who was 14 at the time.She said the name Stead was quite common. |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 11 February 2002 - 03:31 pm | | Hi, Ivor:
Thank you so much for contacting Grace to clear up this matter of whether Pall Mall Gazette editor W. T. Stead and William Stead, President of the Spitalfields Vigilance Committee, were one and the same person. Grace Eckley I see assures us that they were not. Great. I am glad also to see that we have stirred up a lively debate on Mr. Stead! 
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Tuesday, 12 February 2002 - 11:18 am | | Hi Ivor and thanks for passing on the reply from Grace about W.T. Stead. So what she says proves that my reasoning re the "WT Stead" and "Willam Stead" was correct after all. Nice to know. You say she has a magazine about Stead--that's most interesting. Is her Email available?
With best regards, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Tuesday, 12 February 2002 - 11:27 am | | Hi Chris. According to Grace, it looks like my reasoning about the two Steads--"W.T. Stead" and "William Stead" was correct. So I'll pat myself on the back for my deductions! You say we have stirred up a lively debate on Stead. Good. I wonder if it will continue!
Cheers, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Tuesday, 12 February 2002 - 12:18 pm | | Hi Chris. I have had further thoughts about your remark that we seem to have stirred up a lively debate about W.T. Stead. Okay, so here is a really crazy suggestion: What if Stead himself wrote that Dear Boss letter to Central News! He was keen to draw increased attention to conditions in the East End, and he more than most would appreciate the mass dissemination of the Dear Boss letter (and the follow-up postcard) if the missives went to a news agency. As a great admirer of Stead, I should not be suggesting this and frankly I am only offering it in fun!
Cheers, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 12 February 2002 - 12:58 pm | | Hi, Alastair:
I personally think the thought that Thomas Bulling and his boss at the Central News Agency, Moore, were the people behind "Dear Boss" might not be true. However, as George Sims said, who else but a journalist would know to send the letters to the Central News Agency... a member of the public would be more inclined to send the letter to a specific newspaper.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: TS Simmons
Tuesday, 12 February 2002 - 08:26 pm | | | Great analysis, Mr. Fido. PS: Your book The Crimes, Detection, and Death of Jack the Ripper is the finest book written on a specific suspect. The David Cohen theory is a very strong and valid one. |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Wednesday, 13 February 2002 - 07:42 am | | Dear Alistair and Ivor,
The book that Alistair heard of, FUTILITY, OR
THE WRECK OF THE TITAN, was by Morgan Robertson,
a turn of the century writer, recalled now for this odd prediction - novel. It came out in 1898,
and follows the basics of the future Titanic
tragedy (biggest ship of the day, wrecked on
maiden voyage by ice berg, in North Atlantic, in
April, killing many socially prominent people).
Walter Lord used the reference to Robertson's novel in his foreword to A NIGHT TO REMEMBER.
Recently it was suggested, in a book I believe
called DOWN IN THE OLD CANOE, that Robertson's
inspiration was rumours that were circulating in
the 1890s of a potentially large steamer of
Titanic's dimensions, possibly planned for the
Atlantic trade by White Star or Cunard. Although
the plans for what became Olympic, Titanic, and
Britannic, did not get formallized until a meeting
between Lord Pirrie of Harland and Wolff and
J.Bruce Ismay in 1906, they may have been suggested earlier. However, apparently Robertson
was slightly clairvolyant. He also wrote a book
about the U.S. fleet being attacked in Hawaii by
Japan.
Stead's story appeared about 1893. However, about that year he was more involved with a visit
to the United STates during the World Columbian
Exposition in Chicago. The corruption of that
city led to his writing IF CHRIST CAME TO CHICAGO.
I may add that Robertson is not the only one who
could predict steamship tragedies. In 1914, just
before World War I began, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
wrote a short story "DANGER", about England starved into submission by a submarine campaign
by a continental power. The conclusion of the
story is when a four smokestack ocean liner (but
not a Cunarder like the Lusitania)is torpedoed and
sunk off the English coast.
Jeff |
Author: Thomas Neagle
Wednesday, 13 February 2002 - 08:24 am | | Enterprising London journalist J.K. Stephen wrote the "Dear Boss" Letter, as well as many of the other Jack the Ripper Letters and poems.
He was a journalist. He wrote articles for the Pall Mall Gazette. I believe he wrote articles for other newspapers as well. He was the editor of the magazine 'The Reflector', that he put out. I think it is safe to assume, considering what I just stated, that he knew what the CNS (Central News Agency) was. He sent his first Jack the Ripper Letter (The "Dear Boss" Letter) there for maximum effect.
He was mentally ill. He wrote against women, even stating that a woman should be "killed or ploughed".
His writings and poems are very similar to the Jack the Ripper Letters and poems. Look at author Michael Harrison's comparison.
In my opinion, its the same personality, the same person that comes through the "Dear Boss" Letter and many of the other Jack the Ripper Letters and poems. That person is J.K. Stephen. I would describe both J.K. Stephen and the author of the "Dear Boss" Letter and many of the other Jack the Ripper Letters and poems, as a young man, narcisistic, a trickster and a wit, with a twisted sense of humor, as well as being mentally ill. Authors Michael Harrison, Spiering, Abrahamsen and Wilding, as well as researchers Andy and Sue Parlour, have stated that they believe J.K. Stephen was the author of the "Dear Boss" Letter, as well as of many of the other Jack the Ripper Letters.
The author of the "Dear Boss" Letter, as well as many other of the Jack the Ripper Letters, tried to appear as a semi-literate cockney, using a lot of cockney slang. It was popular in those days, for upper-class students of Cambridge, which J.K. Stephen was a product of, to take an interest in, and be familiar with, lower-class cockney slang.
I believe J.K. Stephen was the lookout for the equally mentally ill, venereally diseased, mentally deranged, violent and sick Prince Eddy, who was Jack the Ripper, though it is possible that J.K. Stephen was not in Whitechapel with Prince Eddy, but was only informed of the murders by his friend.
Look at the description given by PC Smith, a policeman, trained in observation:
The man was about 28, 5ft 7in tall, dark complexion, having a small dark moustache, a black diagonal coat, white collar and tie, and wearing a hard felt dearstalker hat. That is exactly the way Prince Eddy looked.
One important question. If Prince Eddy was Jack the Ripper (which I believe he was, and in which I believe an honest reading of the facts of the case show, at least for those who have the discernment to know the truth), being second in line to the throne, would the royalty and government cover-up and lie about the situation? There is only one honest answer to that question? Yes. In terms of the court circulars, they could be fakes, or if they're not, they are only telling Prince Eddy's future schedule, where he was scheduled to be. But he wasn't there, he was in Whitechapel. Also, there isn't one, much less hundreds of signed affidavites, that Prince Eddy was anywhere else other than where he was, in Whitechapel. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Wednesday, 13 February 2002 - 06:20 pm | | | Hi Jeff, Hope you are ok and taking it easy.Plenty of rest and dont over do it. Very interesting information there Jeff.I sometimes wonder if you have an oracle at your disposal. |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Thursday, 14 February 2002 - 02:20 pm | | Dear Ivor,
I am taking it easy, but I am also doing some
writing. Wish I did have an oracle at my disposal.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Thursday, 14 February 2002 - 04:20 pm | | | Hi Jeff,I am down with the flu and my throat is so bad I cant talk and I keep getting dizzy and hot and cold.I feel like Crap.You dont need an oracle Jeff you do just fine without one. |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Sunday, 17 February 2002 - 02:20 pm | | Hi Jeff and Chris. Adding to your remark, Chris, that we seem to have started a lively debate on W.T. Stead, are you or Jeff familiar with the writings of the late Carroll Quigley? (As a Rhodes scholar, Bill Clinton studied under him.) In 1966 a controversial book by Quigley was published under the title of "Tragedy and Hope" and in it Quigley makes some startling revelations about W.T. Stead and his close involvement in forming a semi-secret society known as the Round Table Group in February 1891. Three men formed the group, one of whom was Stead. The other two were Cecil Rhodes, leader of the group, and Reginald Brett (Lord Esher), friend and confidant of Queen Victoria. Even during the Ripper murders, Lord Esher regularly passed on top level secret information to Stead about the inadequacy of Sir Charles Warren and Home Secretary Henry Matthews in not being able to apprehend the Ripper. The Queen expressed concern about "this most dreadful situation in Whitechapel" (although this last item is not noted in the Quigley book). These three men were organizing a society that was to be one of the most important forces in the formulation of British foreign policy for the next 50 years. The first thing the three men did was to set up an inner circle, and then an outer circle known as "The Association of Helpers." Stead then added Alfred Milner to the group, which was also known later as "MilnerÕs Kindergarten." From 1891 to 1902, Stead was the most influential member, although there were many other powerful and high-ranking men who became part of the society. One such man was Lord Astor who held meetings with the group at his Cliveden estate mansion outside London. Here the group took on yet another name, "The Cliveden Set" (In 1963, there was another "Cliveden Set" when Lord Astor entertained Christine Keeler, John Profumo, KGN spy Ivanov and society osteopath Stephen Ward, culminating in the fall of the Macmillan government.) Quigley even suggests that the Round Table Group had dreams of working with the United States to form a world ruling body consisting of the vast British Empire and America "for the betterment of all peoples of the word." The group helped to set up the Royal Institute of International Affairs (RIIA), also known as Chatham House, and much later the American version of the RIIA, namely the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). To this day, the CFR and the RIIA work closely with one another in producing reports etc. In other words, Quigley is hinting at a world conspiracy, albeit a benevolent Conspiracy! "Tragedy and Hope" is a thick book, heavy going to read, but quite a read if you can get through it all!! Forgive my rambling on like this. After all, both of you are probably aware of the above, and so, too, might be Grace Eckley of "NewStead."
With best regards, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 18 February 2002 - 01:21 am | | Dear Alastair,
I don't know of Quigley or his book, and I am not
a conspiracy enthusiast, but somehow what he says
is not too surprising to me. Stead was keen in
furthering world peace, and would later waste a
lot of time supporting peace initiatives that had
the blessings (apparently) of Tsar Nicholas II
of Russia.
If you know of a good biography on Lord Esher
I would not mind reading it. He and his sister
were so well connected that they frequently
effected British government policy. They cut short the efforts of Lord Curzon as Viceroy of
India in improving the government there, when
Curzon's policies ran counter to the vapid military ideas of England's national hero, Lord
Kitchener, then the Sirdar of the Royal Indian
Army (Kitchener disliked civilian interferance
with his administration, and used any contacts
in England to undermine Curzon - who finally
resigned in disgust; as it turned out Kitchener
was not the superman everyone thought - he had
no plans for supplying the Indian troops if called
upon to fight abroad, as they were in 1914-18,
whereas Curzon had studied the problem: see
David Dilks, CURZON IN INDIA, VOL. II: FRUSTRATION.
I was aware that Stead worked closely with Cecil
Rhodes, for Stead was named one of the trustees
of the Rhodes Scholarships. Again, it is an
interesting example of Stead's puritan streak and
picking and choosing his targets. He attacked
Dilke and Parnell as immoral adulterers. He
never mentioned Gordon's fancying of young boys,
or Rhodes's tendency to have very close friendships with handsome younger men. This
reticence is all the more marked when one recalls
Stead supported the anti-homosexual legislation
that Henry Labouchere introduced, which is in
the background of the Cleveland Street Case.
Best regards,
Jeff |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 18 February 2002 - 02:45 am | | | Alastair,Grace Eckley's e-mail is, grace.eckley@prodigy.net You can obtain back copies of her magazine if you so wish. She is a very nice lady and will be most helpful I am sure. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Monday, 18 February 2002 - 06:11 am | | Hi Jeff,
Peter Fraser published Lord Esher: A Political Biography in 1973. Used copies are obtainable at a reasonable price.
Cheers,
John |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 18 February 2002 - 10:48 pm | | Dear John,
Thanks for the tip on Fraser's biography on
Esher. I'll keep an eye out for it.
Jeff |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Tuesday, 19 February 2002 - 03:39 am | | Dear Jeff: Thanks for your reply to my posting. Glad that you got a lead to a biography on Lord Esher from Jack Traisson. I, too, am not a conspiracy buff, but there is a lot of seemingly accurate information in the Quigley book. Quigley was a highly regarded historian and only hints at a conspiracy without saying there was one. Lord Esher certainly was an influential man to the point of being able to effect British foreign policy. He was very close to Stead and passed on lots of "inside" information to him. Like Stead, Esher was one of the so-called "New Imperialists." So was Rhodes but in an odd sort of way because his diamond monopoly was more like mercantile policy rather than free trade. Interesting what you say about Stead ignoring the homosexual traits of Gordon fancying young boys. You also mention that Rhodes had a tendency to have very close relationships with handsome younger men. I did not know that. I am not up on the Cleveland Street case, so maybe I should make a start on this. It is said that Eddie, Duke of Clarence was involved in the case, but which Cleveland Street? The one that Stephen Knight mentions in writing about Walter Sickert is in the west London area where the Middlesex Hospital is located, a semi-bohemian area in 1888 frequented by artists, gays and so on. And then there is the Cleveland Street in the East End. So which one has the male brothel and figures in the scandal? In the 1970s I spoke on the phone with Joseph Sickert, but he was so vague as to be almost unintelligible. Joseph had an unlisted phone number, but I got it from an old London phone book!
Once again, thanks for your posting.
Cheers, Alastair Segerdal |
Author: Jack Traisson
Tuesday, 19 February 2002 - 06:35 am | | Hi Again,
I have been learning a few things from this excellent discussion, only sticking my nose in to contribute the odd fact.
By the way, Alastair, the Cleveland Street raid took place in the West End with Inspector Abberline leading the investigation.
There are three prominent books on the subject:
I've only read the Hyde book, and that was many years ago.
H. Montgomery Hyde
The Cleveland Street Scandal. 1976.
Lewis Chester, David Leitch, and Colin Simpson,
The Cleveland Street Affair. 1977.
Theo Aronson
Prince Eddy and the Homosexual Underworld. 1994.
Scotland Yard had shut down the brothel in July. The press barely noticed it at first until Ernest Parke, the editor of the radical weekly 'The North London Press' picked up some information from police sources and started to give it some coverage. Parke ran a story on September 28th that "the heir to a duke and the younger son of a duke" were mixed up in the affair. On November 16, he ran a follow up story and named both the Earl of Euston and Lord Somerset, and said they had been allowed to leave the country to cover up the involvement of a personage "more distinguished and more highly placed." Many of his readers knew of the rumor that the protected personage was Prince Eddy. Somerset had already left England, but Parke was mistaken about the Earl of Euston leaving the country. The Earl was still in England and did not intend to leave. Instead, he hired lawyers to fight Parke's charges with a libel suit. Since Parke was unwilling to reveal his confidential sources, he couldn't call the witnesses he needed to prove that Euston was guilty of the allegations. The jury convicted him and the judge, furious at Parke for protecting his informants, sentenced him to twelve months in prison. Parke's conviction cleared Euston.
How all the charges came about and the aftermath of the affair make for an interesting read. It once again shows the influence of the press on a particular story. If Parke hadn't stuck his nose in and started accusing the highest in the land, the whole affair would have most likely quietly disappeared without the public knowing of the events in Cleveland Street.
Cheers,
John |
Author: Steve Beddard
Monday, 01 April 2002 - 01:41 pm | | Dunno if this is the rightplace to ask - but here goes...
A little while ago the BBC screened a factual documentary which featured an article in the Pall Mall Gazette with a list of suspects. Unfortunately graphics obscured the date of publication, and searches of various Ripper sites have failed to identify this.
Can anyone throw any ight on when this was published, know where I can see a copy, or even maybe (hopefully) has a copy which they would be willing to let me have a copy of?
Interested to read all the comments on W T Stead. I got him down as a social reformer who realsied that social issues sell newspapers - but there again I may be wrong!?
Thanks for any help
A new messenger
Stevie (from Birmingham, England) |
Author: ASEGERDAL
Tuesday, 02 April 2002 - 06:23 am | | Hello Steve Beddard: Three years ago a pal of mine in Coventry managed to get me several Xerox copies of the Pall Mall Gazette dealing with the Ripper murders, and he did this at the public library in Coventry. I see you are in Birmingham so a trip to Coventry is not far to travel. I live in the U.S., but was born in Coalville, Leicestershire, and moved to London when I was 18. I am not familiar with the Gazette publishing a list of suspects but the Coventry library has an index for the Gazette, so that might be very helpful. Having said that, I see in the book "Jack the Ripper and the London Press" by L. Perry Curtis Jnr., (Yale University Press London) that the Gazette published some suspects in its editions of October 8, December 6 and 12, all 1888. However, this information is in source references at the end of the book and does not list which suspects. I happen to know the Gazette did list "a Malay" on one of those dates. According to the reference notes, the Daily Telegraph Oct 3 to 9 and the Star Oct 3 to 5 also listed suspects. All these dates are for 1888. But regarding the Gazette for Oct 8, I have a Xerox copy of this and see no mention of suspects. I also note your comments about what you have read about W.T. Stead. Several of these postings were from me (SEGERDAL) which could have been the ones you read. Stead certainly was a great social reformer and concerned about conditions in the East End. His Pall Mall Gazette was a radical newspaper, yet read by many of the elite. I hope I have been of help and wish you all the best in your search for those back issues of the Gazette.
Sincerely, Alastair Segerdal. |
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