|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Profiling of Jack the ripper.
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
Profiling of Jack the ripper.
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 11:24 am |        | Hi Scott,
'Watch his eyes and his hands (goes back to body language) If he folds his arms or crosses his legs away from you......... go with Caz’s method and start the beatings.'
Aaaaarrrgghhhh!
That was Gory's 'method' - not mine.
If you start beating me I'll confess to being Jack the Ripper, but what does that prove? 
Love,
Cowardy Custard Caz |
Author: Raphael Aglietti
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 12:32 pm | | Hi Caroline,
I agree that foresenic testing in 1888 was severly lacking but there are still many ways you could bungle a crime especially brutal murders. Granted it has been stated that the criminal would have to be caught in the act. I really wonder how smart the police were and what were their deductive capabilities.
What I was also suggesting was that when JTR was performing the eviserations he would have been detached from reality. Think of when you are intently focusing on a task especially one that gives you gratification. You'll tune out what is going on around you, and get into a mental "zone". I'm simply theorizing that Jack had to plan to be in areas where he knew that he could lapse into the zone while doing his eviserations knowing that the chance of being caught was minimal despite being unaware of his surroundings (not being tuned in). |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 01:27 pm | | Sorry there Caz. I thought the bad cop was you.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Raphael Aglietti
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 01:32 pm | | | Scott, here's a question for you. What business/hospitals were near by the murders? Is it possbile that JTR wore an apron of sorts and discarded at say a butcher's place to let them do the laundry and since blood is expected at such a place. Would it possible that JTR was in a profession that would allow him access to aprons whereupon he could discard them with blood and small traces of entrails on them without drawing suspicion. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 01:41 pm | | Raphael,
It is possible. You are now thinking out of the proverbial box.
Peace
Scott |
Author: Michael Conlon
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 02:36 pm | | Hi Scott,
I agree with your contention that the Ripper's clothes would have been imbrued to a greater or lesser degree and this, in addition to getting them properly cleaned, would have been a problem in terms of avoiding suspicion.
As you may know, I have recently uncovered and proffered a cattle boat slaughterman as a possible Ripper suspect. In connection with your observation, I would suggest that a person such as La Bruckman would arouse (at least for a while) minimal suspicion as regards his bloody clothing (having a verifiable excuse), and, back aboard ship, could easily get them properly cleaned without incurring any risk whatsoever, as ensanguined clothes would have been the norm for a man in his profession. If I remember correctly, the police were investigating local Whitechapel slaughterman for this very reason.
Best regards,
Mike |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Thursday, 11 April 2002 - 07:16 pm | | Dear Scott E Medine,
A change of clothes adjacent to the crime scene...
rather opens the gate to new scenarios?
Rosey :-) |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 15 April 2002 - 04:35 pm | | Michael,
When I first started taking a more than healthy interest in the case, I initially relied on the profile written by John Douglas. As a former student of Quantico, I leaned in favor of the profile. Now, after looking at the forensic evidence that is present in the records relating to the individual crime scenes, I am leaning in the opposite direction on a lot of points of the profile.
Besides from the normal, bed wetting, animal killing, abusive house hold etc...... etc........ here is my honest opinion. Let me know if your man fits.
1. He was 28-30 years old.
2. He was a foreigner with a dark beard or facial hair and dark hair. He would have been of either Arabic or Greek descent. This does not mean he would have gone by an Arabic or Greek name.
3. He was educated.
4. He served in the military.
5. He had anatomical knowledge but no medical knowledge.
6. He knew Eddowes and Kelly. However, this does not mean that Eddowes and Kelly knew each other.
7. He read the writings of the Marquis De Sade or heard stories of him or his writings orally.
8. He was a sadist.
9. He was either married or lived with a close relative who knew him and may have helped him in certain aspects of the crime, but did not participate in neither the killings nor the mutilations.
10. He was employed full time and regularly.
11. He may have a scar(s) on his body from a fight(s) involving knives. One of which would have been on his face. It would not have been big and hideous but enough to disturb the growth of facial hair. He would have self inflicted cuts on his body. His back may have been scarred from lashings that were self inflicted or inflicted by another man. He liked giving and taking anal sex. He was not homosexual but he would have shown the signs of having received anal sex. He was a pedofile.
12. He either lived in or worked in the Whitechapel area. If he worked there, then it was his relative who lived there.
13. He owned a pair of gloves and a dark full length over coat. He wore a scarf or tie and shirts with a collar.
14. The number 38 had a particular meaning to him.
15. He was compulsively clean, neat and orderly.
16. He was a control freak and a person with some authority in his position at work. He loved to micro-manage.
17. He was physically strong. His hands were heavily calloused and large, his fingernails were closely cropped. He was able to engage in conversation. He was unassuming and pleasant to be around in public.
18. He had copies of the newspaper articles concerning the case. He may have become friendly with one or several of the beat officers. He would have spoke with them freely concerning investigation into the killings.
19. He would have been 6 inches taller than the height at which the top line of the of the Goulston St. Graffiti was written.
20. All five canonical victims are his along with Martha Tabram and John Gill.
21. He was not addicted to any narcotics nor was he an alcoholic.
22. He always had a large amount of money on his person. |
Author: Michael Conlon
Monday, 15 April 2002 - 07:28 pm | | Hi Scott,
I'll try to address your points in the order you stated them:
1)La Bruckman was 26 or 27 during the Whitechapel crimes, 29 or 30 during the killing of Carrie Brown.
2)He had a medium sized brown mustache. He was Moroccan by birth and was known to associate with Arabs. The man who was eventually convicted (and later pardoned) for Brown's murder, Ameer Ben Ali, was known as La Bruckman's 'cousin' and was in the habit of going around the Fourth Ward with La Bruckman and beating up and stealing from prostitutes.
3) He apparently spoke English, French and Arabic. More than this, I can't speak to his education, although reportedly, he came to the USA at age eight, and, unlike in Europe at this time, child education was mandatory (although not strongly enforced).
4)I have no evidence for this.Interestingly, though, his 'partner in crime', Ameer Ben Ali, had been a soldier in the French Colonial Army during the Franco-Prussian War and had participated in at least three battles.
5) La Bruckman was a slaughterman by profession.
6)-Don't know. He certainly was a regular visitor to London (for some 13 years) and was known to frequent prostitutes (and abuse them) in New York.
7)-Don't know. (This one seems a bit of a non-starter to me).
8)He was known to cut up cattle alive for jollies.
9)He was single. He apparently supported a mother and sister on Water Street in New York (the same street on which Brown was murdered). It was known that he possessed no fixed abode of his own, living in rooming houses, hotels and aboard ship during his travels. As I mentioned, Ameer Ben Ali, his so-called 'cousin', was in the East River Hotel on the night La Bruckman was seen to take Brown to her death. I don't think this is coincidence. I have little doubt that Ali assisted him to some degree. It is also highly provocative (especially for 'accomplice' proponants) that Ali was reported to have been in London during the Whitechapel killings, where he masqueraded as a cripple, begging for money (would an ostensible cripple on crutches be stopped and searched by police?). We don't know if the two were 'in touch' in London at this time.
10) La Bruckman was employed as a slaughterman and ocean-going cattle drover for at least 13 years with the same firm, visiting London regularly.
11) He had a scar on his face, which the press commented on saying that, despite this, he looked as if "he never came off the worst in a fight". We have no evidence of his sexual proclivities other than his known association with prostitutes and whatever speculation one might want to draw from his Arab ethos.
12)As stated, he was known to stay in rooming houses, etc. in whatever port he found himself. He was also known to work in slaughterhouses near his ports of call between voyages.
13) Newspaper descriptions say that when arrested, he had a sailor's cloth cap, blue coat, calico shirt and course, dark trousers on. Undoubtedly, as a slaughterman, he would have owned gloves of some sort.
14)?
15) His employer described him as quiet and orderly.
16) Persons who knew him said that he was "a bad man" if provoked. He was a foreman of drovers and slaughterman.
17) He was described in the press as a "miniature Hercules". Papers said, "the cattleman has big cheek bones, a prominent nose and very large mouth. His neck is like a bull's and there is not an ounce of spare flesh on his wiry frame. The tendons stand out on his arms like gaspipes". "He is noted for his strength and physical prowess".
18) Don't know if he kept newspaper stories of his London arrest or the murders. He was reported to be well known to the N.Y. cops in the Fourth Ward.
19) He was reported to be about 5 feet, 8 inches tall.
20) Perhaps
21) He certainly drank, but was reported as sober and regular in his habits by his employer.
22) To always be able to stay in hotels and rooming houses, in addition to supporting a mother and sister, he must have had some financial resources.
There's a start for you, Scott. I'm interested to hear your take on this.
Best regards,
Mike |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Tuesday, 16 April 2002 - 09:58 am | | Hello Scott-
Very interesting profile. I'm intrigued by several of your points, especially number (11), regarding the facial scarring. Could you tell me what factors lead you to the conclusion that the murderer had such scars?
Thanks
AAA88 |
Author: Goryboy
Tuesday, 16 April 2002 - 11:42 am | | Dear Caz,
I see your point, re, the beating of a known perp. But who's to say policemen can't have their jollies, as well?
But, seriously, with the level of forensics and other circumstancial evidence-gathering at the time, a copper would have either had to a) catch the Ripper red-handed, in the act, or b) have an eyewitness to same willing to testify in court. Short of either of the above, I suggested trying to draw the demented Ripper out during questioning, by gaining his confidence and, moreover, by "sharing" his secret hobby with him, thus inducing a confession.
On the other hand, Special Branch detectives in Northern Ireland have been beating signed confessions out of suspected IRA men and getting away with it for years (Diplock court proceedings, in which the signed "confession" is the only evidence at trial). Why not treat the Ripper to same -- all other measures having failed?
Since this board is devoted to profiling techniques, one aspect I might bring up here is that many SKs are indeed interviewed or questioned by police during their sprees, but are often missed. I suspect that the Ripper may have been questioned or interviewed during October of 1888, during the house-to-house searches (begun after Oct. 16th). But since the police and press had preconceived notions about what the murderer must have looked like (i.e., ghoulish, fiendish, deranged, etc.), they missed him.
Wot say ye?
Love,
John e Boy |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 16 April 2002 - 02:31 pm | | Hi Jesse,
No Problem. I base this somewhat on the probability that the killer had a military background, but more so on the strong probability that the killer would have been a foreigner that came from a knife based culture. The population of the East End had a large foreign population. A very large portion of which was Jewish. Jewish is not a racial identifier but rather an ethnic and religious identifier. Since it is hard to sometimes tell a person who merely practices the Jewish faith from say a Catholic it leads me to believe that many of the East End Jews were of the Ethnic variety. Which would give them Middle Eastern features. The countries that comprise the Middle East are heavy knife cultures as are Eastern European Countries i.e. Greece, Turkey, Macedonia .
Based on this information, and the ability to render his victims dead instantaneously with 1-2 cuts, makes him a prime candidate for a person possessing some experience involving the use of a knife as a weapon. Most people trained in the use of knife fighting know strike secondary targets such as the arms, hands, face etc. in an attempt to wear their opponent down. The killer probably had these scars one of which was probably a visible facial scar.
Over the last 8 months I have interviewed 130 people who are deeply involved in the BDSM scene. These 130 people reside in either the Metro Atlanta, Georgia area or the Greater New Orleans, Louisiana area. Of the 130 interviewed, 26 were involved in edge play (death scenarios) of the 26 involved in edge play, 12 were involved in knife play. Of the 12 involved in knife play, 8 were doms/dommes the rest were submissives. Of the 8 doms/dommes, 7 were doms (males). Like all of the doms/dommes I interviewed, those 8 also showed masochistic tendencies. The masochistic tendencies of these 8 involved edge and knife play as well. All 8 had self inflicted scars on their bodies from knives. These scars were in places of the body that were hidden from plain view (covered by clothing). Interestingly they alone had these scars, their submissive mates did not. The doms knew it was crossing the line to scar their mates. I did however note one female submissive with ligature marks on her neck consistent with a hangmans noose. Of the doms/dommes interviewed that did not participate in edge play, all showed masochistic tendencies and 13 had fresh scars on their backs consistent with a cat o’ nine tails.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Tuesday, 16 April 2002 - 04:45 pm | | Hi Scott,
Are you aware of any witness who reported a suspect with a facial scar?
Rich |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 16 April 2002 - 10:41 pm | | Hi Richard,
There is the blotchy faced man. However there are a number reasons for the blotchy complexion.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Tuesday, 16 April 2002 - 11:06 pm | | Hi Scott-
Thanks for the response- I can only imagine the sort of characters you had to interview to get that information.
Your profile presents a number of points of interest, and I hope to see them elucidated further in the future. Sex and the knife are obviously two key features of these murders, and disturbing as it is to think about, it only makes sense that these atrocities could have evolved from sadistic sexual practices.
AAA88 |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 12:10 am | | Hi all,
FBI profiler John Douglas shared in a recent book of his "The Crimes That Haunt Us" that profiling Jack the Ripper is exceedingly difficult.
Initially, his profile suggested that Ripper was someone who dressed above his standing in order to lure prostitutes to him and avoid engaging in lengthy conversations. He admits in his work now that he was unaware how easily and for how little money prostitutes could be procured in Whitechapel. He now says the Ripper could have been dressed very shabbily.
At one time, Douglas called Aaron Kosminski the most likely suspect. In his new book he presents David Cohen as the most likely Ripper. Yet the reader will notice numerous references to the works of Martin Fido (who seems to have consulted Douglas on the book). Of course, Mr. Fido is the originator of the David Cohen theory.
This long after the murders, despite the best of intentions, through attempts to profile or the revelation of new evidence, it seems we all see the question of the Ripper's identity through the prism of not only our own knowledge but our own desires. This explains why those who find new evidence that is even superficially on the outskirts of the case consistently leap to the conclusion that their small piece of the puzzle unlocks the mystery.
Rich |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 05:27 am | | | I wonder what kind of sex Joe and Mary practised before their break-up?. |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 05:48 am | | Hi Rick,
My guess is that Mary would have been bored rigid. And you can take that two ways. Oo-er, and that too. 
Hi Gory,
Yes, I agree that in 1888, short of catching Jack red-handed, or having impeccable eyewitness testimony, or a supportable voluntary confession (or, perhaps, finding a ‘lair’, with newspaper cuttings, victims’ possessions/organs etc), what could the police do (legitimately) to obtain a conviction?
But what good is a conviction? The public surely want, and have a right to expect, the right conviction, otherwise the problem, whether it be a serial killer loose on their streets, or an active IRA bomber free to do his worst, remains with us.
Just because confessions have been beaten out of suspected IRA men, how would treating a Ripper suspect to the same ensure we put the right man out of harm’s way? You talk about ‘trying to draw the demented Ripper out during questioning’, but you still haven’t addressed just how you know you have ‘the demented Ripper’ in for questioning, if you don’t have any of the evidence mentioned in the first paragraph.
All credit to the late Victorian officers, who evidently didn’t beat the crap out of any demented Kosminski/Cohen ‘types’, in the hope that one would confess to being Jack, presumably relieving any possible witnesses of a pricking conscience over whether to finger a fellow Jew or not.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 07:45 am | | Caroline, PLEASE!!!
, seriously Caz, I was thinking of the satyristic attitude in the mutilations, what do you think?.
Rick |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 08:07 am | | Scott E,
Sorry...38 ???? Im lost, please explain.
Monty
PS Oh yeah, John Gill, Any news on that one ?? |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 08:15 am | | Hi Monty,
I think I posted an answer to the number 38 in the Arbie La Bruckman thread. It also discusses the John Gill murder.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Ally
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 08:21 am | | Richard,
I was recently in a debate/discussion about John Douglas with people who think that he has lost all professional credibility/has "sold out"/gone Hollywood...etc. This was based on his profiles in the book Cases That Haunt us and the Ripper profile was one of the points. It does seem somewhat damning for his suspect to conveniently be that of the person who advised him on the Ripper case. A lot of people believe that he is simply interested in producing books..not accurate profiles. Your thoughts?
Ally |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 08:24 am | | Scott E
Found it, read it and was extremely intrigued by it.
Thank you
Monty
|
Author: Philip C. Dowe
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 09:41 am | | Hi Ally,
John Douglas has not lost his credibility. Anyone who has had the plaesure to have had him as one of their mentors will go a long way for him. The problem with his Ripper profiles is that he was not presented all the facts and at the same time given a list of possilbe suspects and asked which one would fit. As far as I can remember (but can check up at home) he was presented Gull, Eddy, Kominski and Cohan. Which one out of that bunch would you pick?
Philip |
Author: Ally
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 10:54 am | | Hi Philip,
But that's kind of the point. He didn't do a real profile on JtR. He got a list of suspects, researched nothing himself, did a half-arsed job of looking at the case and created a profile. To sell a book. The real debate on his credibility was sparked by a different case, however the Ripper profile was used to underscore the points being made. Because of his professional reputation, his opinions do carry weight. And I was wondering if he is living up to his reputation when he doesn't thoroughly investigate something and simply relies on biased people to provide him with his facts.
Ally |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 12:32 pm | | Hi All,
I have to agree with Ally, I wouldn't make a profile until after I read over EVERYTHING I could possibly look over BEFORE I'd give my opinion on things. This of course would mean not only the official files, but the press reports, as well as ALL of the research people have done on ALL of the suspects.(Yes this means the silly ones like Lewis Carrol.) It's the only way to be objective and without bias. Not because of being influenced by one person, but just because you may not have all the facts.
Sincerely,
Chris H. |
Author: Philip C. Dowe
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 12:35 pm | | Hi Ally,
sorry I misunderstood you and thought you were talking about John Douglas per se. His profile on Jack is - eh - scratchy and does not do him justice. In that case he was out for a fast buck.
Philip |
Author: Ally
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 03:41 pm | | No big, Philip.
If anyone is interested in Douglasand is interested in debating some of his other profiles, cases etc., let me know. I have recently become enamored of the FBI CASKU, profiling, criminal mind and what not and began reading a lot of his books. I know there is one case other than Jack that the majority seems to feel he totally blew. We can set up a thread or email. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 03:51 pm | | Hi Ally,
I am reluctant to impugn the motives of anyone but am aware of the criticisms you mentioned of John Douglas.
His reputation has suffered more for his participation for the Ramseys in the death of Jon Benet. He was hired by the family to come up with a profile of the killer and did so - his profile suggested that the murderer was an intruder and thereby cleared the parents. This despite the fact that most investigators suspect the Ramseys.
In any case, I agree with you. His suspects regarding the Ripper case seem influenced by those who collaborate with him.
But such thinking is not limited to profilers. Is it just a coincidence that the author who discovered David Cohen also is the cheif proponent of the Cohen as Ripper theory? What about the author who discovered the Littlechild letter naming Tumblety - that author is now the leading proponent of the Tumblety as Ripper theory.
I do not intend to impugn the integrity or even the scholarship of any profiler, author, historian, or investigator. I do suggest that in the hopes of being the one to solve the case individuals seems to see information they find compelling in a more optimistic than judicial light.
Rich |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 03:59 pm | | Mr. Douglas has lost a lot of credibility. Some people say he is motivated by publicity and/or large payments for his services by clients. In the book “The Cases That Hunt Us”, the Ripper profile is the least of the problems.
Since my firm is based in the Atlanta, Georgia area, we were approached by a third party to profile a particular case that is presented in his aforementioned book. Due to client confidentiality I can’t say anything about who the client is and who he represented. What I can say is that after 6 months of work and presenting them a huge bill and them not getting the answer they wanted they went with Mr. Douglas. Who, I am told, after receiving his fee, was able to give the client the answer they wanted. In fact we still haven’t been paid.
It does seem that a big part of the problem is that Mr. Douglas no longer has the vaunted FBI crime lab at his disposal since his retirement and seems to be afish out of water at times.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Ally
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 04:00 pm | | Hi Rich,
Yes the Ramsey case is the one I mentioned in my previous post as the major debate topic. I actually defended him in that argument because I can't quite believe he would deliberately create a profile clearing people who were paying his bills. That seems highly unethical and I don't think he would intentionally do that. But as he was swayed by the ones providing him with the information on JtR, I can't help wondering if he wasn't swayed by the Ramseys. Especially since he interviewed them while compiling his profile. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 17 April 2002 - 04:54 pm | | Hi Ally,
I agree. I heard a former colleague of Douglas saying that profiling is an art not a science. And art is often in the eyes of the beholder.
Rich |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 08:16 am | | Hmmm... Scott.
Atlanta, GA; aforementioned book..I'm straining to think who that could be...
So you were commissioned to provide a profile, PRIOR to J. Douglas? Seriously? |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 09:12 am | | Dear Ally,
Yes, and if I do not receive my fee then a law suit will be filed and all the information we found will become public. Then of course a lien will be placed on their property. Just to let you know.....if a certain person did not do it then he knew who did it. This of course based on actually walking the crime scene and the mysterious undigested fruit that Mr. Douglas claimed had no bearing.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 09:18 am | | Scott,
You are a cruel, CRUEL tease. You have no idea how obsessed I am with that case. I am going to have get wicked on you now. If I start sending you emails nagging you to sue, it is your own fault.
Ally |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 10:42 am | | Ally,
Eventually.....all good things come to those who wait....and of course sometimes nudge.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Philip C. Dowe
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 12:35 pm | | Hi Richard,
I am an artist? Great! The quote is from Robert K Ressler and is very near to the truth. If profiling were a science then all profiles would fit 100% and would identify one person. They don't and never will.
Profiling is a mixture of scientific methods, statistics and art. The art being trying to think like a criminal. Douglas could do that.
More than one profiler in film and book are based on him (Frank Black in "Millennium" or Will Graham in "Red Dragon"). But since these characters have emerged he has found a way of earning money with his profiles and sadly they have gone down hill.
If it wasn't for him (and Ressler) people like I would be laughed at.Ten years ago his lectures were brilliant, now they are full of his self-importance. What did Metallica sing: Sad but True.
BUT what he taught us still stands: If you can't catch a criminal with evidence, then you have to try and think like him.
Philip |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 18 April 2002 - 02:51 pm | | Hi Phillip,
Profiles are always subject to controversy because necessary in most profiles is a degree of interpretation. Where there is interpretation there can be bias.
I choose not to impugn the characters of people like Douglas. Although circumstances surrounding certain profiles may be suspect, each case involves some degree of interpretation.
That is one reason I am skeptical of those who attempt to profile Jack the Ripper. The information we have about the crime scenes, nature of the victims wounds, witness testimony, etc. is often sketchy and contradictory.
The fact is that very few facts in the Ripper case are beyond contention. Douglas admits that his initial Ripper profile was built upon incomplete and inaccurate information.
I wonder if there is a case in which "retro" profiling has ever proven successful (years after a crime is committed developing a profile and then successfully identifying the killer).
Rich |
Author: Philip C. Dowe
Saturday, 20 April 2002 - 07:06 am | | Hi Richard,
if your last sentence was meant to be a question, the answer - is far as I could find out - NO!.
Philip |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Saturday, 20 April 2002 - 03:14 pm | | Hi Philip,
Thanks for your reply. I could not think of a case either.
Rich : ) |
|
|
|
|
