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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
British coinage
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
British coinage
Author: larry haskins
Saturday, 21 April 2001 - 10:17 pm |        | | EXCUSE ME BUT I AM NEW TO THE RIPPER PUZZLE AND I NEED A LITTLE HELP WITH THE BASICS. I THINK I'M CLEAR ON FARTHINGS , PENCE (PENNIES - d / SHILLINGS, POUNDS & SOVERIGNS. WHAT IS A GUINIE, A HA'PENCE OR TWO'PENCE. DIDN'T THEY HAVE PAPER MONEY. IF SOMEONE WILL HELP ME GET STARTED I MAY SOMEDAY HAVE SOMETHING TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION |
Author: larry haskins
Saturday, 21 April 2001 - 10:23 pm | | | I AM NEW TO THE RIPPER PUZZLE & NEED SOME INFORMATION ON BITISH COINAGE OF THE TIME. I THINK I'M CLEAR ON FARTHINGS, PENCE (PENNIES- d )SHILLINGS, POUNDS & SOVERIGNS. I'M NOT SURE OF GUIENIS . HA'PENCE, TO'PENCE & SEVERAL OTHERS. MY MAIN CONCERN IS APPROX HOW MUCH WAS A 1888 POUND WORTH IN 2001 USA DOLLARS. AS I SAY I AM NEW, BUT WITH A LITTLE HELP I MAY SOMEDAY CONTRIBUTE TO THE CONVERSATION |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 22 April 2001 - 12:05 am | | Larry
If you know a pound was 20 shillings then a guinea was 21 shillings.
A Ha'pence was a half-penny and a to'pence was tuppence (two pence coin).
There was a few postes on these boards explaining the whole British currency a year or more ago, you might find it using a keyword search.
Here are three sites that may explain it all..
(the first one has the $ value)
http://www.tiac.net/users/hcunn/gold-bri.html
http://www.tames.net/ramblings/uk-currency.htm
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/whistler/23/money.html
Regards, Jon |
Author: Martin Fido
Sunday, 22 April 2001 - 05:35 pm | | Just one small clarifying addition to Jon's post. 'Pence', either as a word on its own or as a suffix, was a plural of penny - the same as 'pennies'. So you couldn't have 'a ha'pence' (halfpence). That would be 'a ha'penny'. You could and would refer to 'three ha'pence' as readily as to 'a penny-ha'penny'. And I'm not sure whether there ever was a twopence coin (as there now is a 2p). There certainly wasn't in 1888. The coinage ran farthing (a quarter of a penny), ha'penny, penny, threepenny bit, sixpence, shilling, florin (two shillings), half-crown (two shillings and sixpence), half-sovereign (ten shillings) and sovereign (one pound).
Martin |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 22 April 2001 - 05:51 pm | | Martin
The last URL that I posted above lists a two-pence coin, and the first URL indicates the two-pence coin, being silver, was minted from 1817-1820, only afterwards being distributed as maundy money.
In my coin collection I had a two-pence bronze coin dated 1797 and was larger than the old penny and as thick as three pennies stuck together. Weird looking coin.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Martin Fido
Sunday, 22 April 2001 - 06:26 pm | | Sorry I'm being a clever-clogs again, Jon. you obviously know much more about old coinage than i do.
Regards,
Martin |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 22 April 2001 - 07:33 pm | | Martin, Jon,
Am I mistaken or did you two miss out on a couple or three coins in use in 1888?
I have a belief there was a 4 penny piece, a double florin or 4 shilling piece, and I know there was a 5 shilling or crown piece,--I have an 1888 crown piece
Rick |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 22 April 2001 - 08:51 pm | | Rick
Yes, a 4d piece was called a groat but I never heard of a double florin (4 shillings) and a crown was a silver 5 shilling piece, I believe both the groat & crown were in currency in the 19th century.
Martin
I know relatively little of coinage, what I wrote was from the URL's above, except for the two penny piece which my parents found wedged in a wall in an old house they bought in the 1950's.
My childhood collection of coins, notes, medals & bullets came mainly from my uncle who served in the forces, a local wartime firing range and from inside the seams of some old couches being thrown on bonfire night.
(I'm not proud) :-)
Regards, Jon |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 23 April 2001 - 01:05 am | | Hi, Jon, Rick, Martin, etc.
Actually the twopenny coin went back to Medieval times when it was known as a halfgroat. The silver twopence was not in not common use in Victoria's day, though it was one of the coins issued in the Maundy sets given out to the poor by the sovereign (or rather in her name) in lieu of the ruler having to wash the feet of the poor as in prior days.
Rick is correct that the double florin was indeed issued in Victoria's reign but I think only in 1887 as part of the Silver Jubilee coinage, so it is a rarer coin and I am not surprised Jon had not heard of it. It was issued on the heels of the florin, which as I previously posted was an attempt to start a decimal coinage, the florin being a tenth of a pound.
Martin, I am sorry to hear you are numismatically challenged. I will do all I can to help. 
All the best
Chris |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 23 April 2001 - 01:24 am | | Hi, again all:
Here is an image of a double florin of 1887. Possibly touched by Jack?
Since my last post I have ascertained that the Silver Jubilee Coinage, first struck in 1887 on the fiftieth anniversary of Victoria's ascension to the throne, was still being issued in 1893, although the double florin was only struck in the years 1887, 1888, 1889, and 1889. So it is possible to get one for our Favorite Year, 1888! Incidentally, this denomination is not as rare as I thought and good specimens can be obtained for reasonable prices, although uncirculated or fleur de coin (FDC) specimens will naturally command hundreds of dollars or pounds.
Best regards
Chris |
Author: Jon Eva
Monday, 23 April 2001 - 05:16 am | | I don't know diddly about Jack the Ripper, but I do know a lot about British coins.
The individual coins from Maundy sets seems to have got into generally circulation surprisingly often - as you can imagine the money handed out by the queen was not always squirreled away as a family heirloom but would have often been used as well-needed income by the recipients. I have dozens of well-worn single coins from Victorian Maundy sets, the little silver pennies are the smallest coins in my collection. I think that tradionally the monarch gives away as many Maundy sets as he/she is years old, so that would result in a fair few Victorian sets in existence.
The copper two penny piece from 1797 (the only year it was produced) was known as a Cartwheel due to its huge size (it had to contain two pennies' worth of copper!). I have a beautiful example in my collection. Not that many were made (less than 200,000 if memory serves), and I doubt if it was seem very often in Victorian times. Being almost 100% copper it got damaged very easily.
I would have to check, but from what I remember the groat was never a very common coin, it was only minted in a few years and people would have been much more used to the usual farthing, ha'penny, penny, thrupenny, sixpence, shilling etc. |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 11 July 2001 - 11:18 pm | | Jacunius, Simon & Stephen
This is the thread for reading up on British coinage, I posted some links (April 22 - above) which might be of interest.
Regards, Jon |
Author: stephen borsbey
Friday, 13 July 2001 - 12:17 pm | | thanks jon, nice picture of a doubleflorin
as regulars know i do have one dated 1888
only well off people would touch one of these.it would be like us having a £50 note
in our pocket. now it is of course the same as our 20pence coin , both being 4 shillings.far more likely he would pay in small coinage as the going rate for a kneetrembler was 3d to 6d i believe.,
its nice to think he may have distracted his victims by waving one in front of their eyes. |
Author: Jon
Friday, 13 July 2001 - 08:31 pm | | Stephen
We are gratefull for the double florin pic to Chris. G.
I only posted three links for those interested in Victorian coinage.
You think Jack carried such amounts of loose change?
Somehow, I can't see our victims giving change for a double florin, quite possibly some of them may never have seen such a coin let alone handled one. 
Regards, Jon |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 14 July 2001 - 12:20 am | | Hi, Jon and Stephen:
Here is the coin with which our ladies of the street and other poorer denizens of Whitechapel and Spitalfields would have been most familiar:
This is what was known as a "bun penny" or (officially) a "young head" bronze penny issued by the Royal Mint from 1860 to 1895 when the issue was replaced by the "old head" penny featuring the aged Queen Victoria wearing a veil put in circulation from 1895 to 1901. Jon, you will recall that when we were kids it was not unusual for us to find bun pennies in our change, usually much more worn and a darker brown than the example I show here. In fact, while I was in school in Liverpool in 1961, I won an honorable mention in a competition run by the local Trustee Savings Bank for children to collect as many years of pennies, halfpennies, and farthings as they could, and I was able to get many years from my relative's pocket change including old bun pennies, halfpennies, and farthings.
The famous farthings alleged to have been found next to Annie Chapman's body would have been a smaller version of the penny with the same design. The penny, halfpenny, and farthing (quarter penny) carried the same design and measured, respectively, around 1 1/4 inches, 3/4 inches, and 1/2 inch, with the young Victoria on the obverse and the British allegorical figure of Britannia ruling the waves on the reverse with a lighthouse on a rock and a sailing ship in the distance either side of her. A modernized picture of Britannia was featured on the pre-decimal coinage bronze penny during the present Queen's reign through 1967 with the lighthouse on the left but the sailing ship dropped. More recently, Britannia has featured on the seven-sided fifty-pence piece (one half pound) issued beginning in 1985, with Britannia sans lighthouse or ship but with a stately British lion by her side.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: stephen borsbey
Saturday, 14 July 2001 - 03:10 am | | thanks chris, going back to the double florin. it was only minted for 4 years 1887-1890. some have an arabic 1 in the date and some have a roman I in the date. so it is possible to make a small collection of these.
the reason for its withdrawal is widely believed to be that the public disliked them
due to their close size to the crown piece. known as the BARMAIDS NIGHTMARE . an extra shillings change being given in a dark public house in the belief that a crown was being proferred . this probably happened in the dark pubs of the east end
mind you did rich people frequent such places?? |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 14 July 2001 - 04:05 am | | Hi, Stephen:
Glad you liked the image of the Victorian "copper."  Thanks for the additional tidbits about the Double florin. Did rich people frequent East End pubs. Yes a few, possibly, although perhaps not people like Prince Eddy or Sir William Gull! It is not inconceivable that a man such as George Lusk, local builder and chairman of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, might have had a double florin or two in his pocket.
Best regards
Chris George |
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