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Stations in/near Whitechapel? Could Jack have commuted?
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: General Topics:
Stations in/near Whitechapel? Could Jack have commuted?
Author: Paul Carpenter
Monday, 02 April 2001 - 11:28 am |        | I am starting in a position of complete ignorance on this one, but what is the nearest station to the Whitechapel killings?
I am vaguely theorising whilst here at work, on the idea that Jack could have "commuted" to Whitechapel in order to carry out his grisly tasks. I believe (and do correct me if I'm wrong) that apart from Hansom cabs and the like, the major means of travel between the suburbs and the centre of London would have been the rail network.
In effect, it would be interesting to see if there were any correlations between the times of the murders and the time of trains. I've never been entirely sure of the contention that the killer would have been able to evade detection if he actually lived in Whitechapel itself... it was a hopelessly crowded district and, as I understand it, the majority of houses were home to several families or many individual tenants. Under these circumstances - and with Police searches of houses in the district regular (if voluntary) then I would have thought that stashing bloody knives and organs was a highly risky business...
I can't believe that no-one has researched this before, so feel free to cover me in vitriol and call me a ignoramus etc!!
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Author: Warwick Parminter
Monday, 02 April 2001 - 06:06 pm | | Hi Caz,
you know, when we talk of the Ripper murders, we're trying to understand something about the human being that it's not possible to understand. I keep saying that every persons mind is different, we can't possibly know what goes on in the human mind, and every minute of the day those minds are increasing in number, (with increase in population), there's always something new in mind behaviour coming along. Both for good and bad. As far as understanding him/herself the human being is on to a loser! (in my opinion), it will never happen. Just take you and me Caz, you think what you say is the way it was, I think it was my way, but neither of us know, and we are both good law-abiding people, what if we were both potential killers?. We would have different reasons for going down that road, we'd both be mad to some degree, but your madness would be different to mine. Perhaps you would want to kill for gain, and think you could get away with it,you would maybe choose poison, or the gun, maybe I wanted to kill out of hate, my madness would allow me to use a knife, because I would want to see the pain, surprise, and know that they knew who was the cause of it, but then the type of killer I would be, would allow me to do the same crime for gain, I think there's always a reason for a human being committing murder even if he/she is nuts and if we sane people are honest,- we can see it, what we can't understand and what sickens us is the way some of them do it,
and if we can't see a reason for the killing being done that certain bloodcurdling way, then that really frightens us. They talk of mindless killings, there's no such thing, it takes a mind to kill, a twisted one, I reckon Jack the Ripper had a reason, and if he had been caught we would have understood it.
But then again Caz, you could be the one who is right,--who knows!!
Best Wishes Rick. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Monday, 02 April 2001 - 07:42 pm | | Hello Paul,
The idea of the killer commuting on the train system has been aired before.There were several stations in the area in 1888. At the centre of the main junction however there was a very large Hansom cab stand which was about 130yds in length. From the centre of this junction every murder site can be reached in the same manner.For example if you were at the centre and you wanted to go to Mitre Square you simply, walk in a straight line down Aldgate High Street until you come to Dukes Street.Turn right into Dukes St and left down Church Passage ( St James Passage ) into Mitre Square. From the centre to Millers Court, walk in a straight line to Dorset Street, turn left into Dorset St and right into Millers Court.From the centre to Dutfields Yard, Walk in a straight line to Berner Street, turn right and walk in a straight line to Dutfields Yard on your right.You can reach all murder sites like this without ducking and diving down back alleys and it is the best was to get from site to site.Jack was not ducking and diving down all the back alleys he kept to the main roads.Because the cab stand was at the centre and the layout of all the murder sites were the same from it I once thought the killer was coming and going by cab. Check this out on a good period map and you will see what I mean. But I threw the idea of a cab out of the window when I concluded the killer was in the area during the murders. Also you dont need a home or a building to stash a knife or body parts. Best Wishes. |
Author: Paul Carpenter
Tuesday, 03 April 2001 - 06:53 am | | Hello, Rick - is that post in the wrong place???
Hello Ivor,
...I now, shamefacedly recall that Sugden detailed the times of trains that would have been available to Druitt to travel to Whitechapel to commit the murders. The general pattern was that trains stopped running around midnight and recommenced in the early hours of the morning. This would obviously mean that a putative commuting Jack would have been hanging around Whitechapel for a few hours after the murder, possibly bloodstained and carrying body parts with him. Ahem.
I hereby rescind my under thought-out speculation.... |
Author: Martin Fido
Wednesday, 04 April 2001 - 07:20 pm | | Paul - don't retire blushing prematurely. To the best of my kowledge Phil Sugden only dealt with Druitt's possible overground movement from Blackheath to Charing Cross (something Martin Howells and Keith Skinner also busied themselves with, adding conjectures about his walking route via Whitechapel to his mother's asylum confinement in Hackney or thereabouts).
Your question re underground stations is perfectly reasonable. I think they fall as follows: Emma Smith, Martha Tabram and Clay Pipe Alice, all nearest to Aldgate East. Polly Nichols definitely and Annie Chapman possibly nearest to Whitechapel. But Annie might be equally near or even closer to Liverpool Street, which is certainly the closest to Mary Jane Kelly. Katherine Eddowes closest to Aldgate (near which she was initially arrested). Elizabeth Stride, I guess, was closest to Shadwell. I cannot confirm that all these stations were functioning in 1888, nor at what hours trains ran through them.
Ivor's suggestion that you bear in mind other forms of transport, too, is eminently sensible. His hansom cabs would work for middle class suspects like Donston or Druitt. Bernie Brown (who's a very thorough researcher into such matters) suggested in a recent Ripperologist that an omnibus station was open all or most of the night in Commercial Street - a surprise to me, but a definite means of moving working class suspects around.
Good hunting!
Martin Fido |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 05 April 2001 - 03:23 am | | Hi Paul, Martin, All,
I know where I can put my hands on a book that gives precise information about when all the stations began functioning, and which the Ripper could have used, but it means a trip into town. No doubt someone else will have helped you by then (Viper possibly, if he's not too busy?) but I'll make a note of it on my next shopping list.
Love,
Caz |
Author: The Viper
Thursday, 05 April 2001 - 07:36 am | | May I refer you to the Victorian London section at the main Casebook where there is a dissertation by Adam Wood entitled The Birth of London’s Underground. All the stations mentioned in Martin’s poste (above) were functioning by 1888.
Public transport in the capital was quite advanced by this time. The bulk of the underground services were run by the Metropolitan Railway and the District Railway. As a joint project they had created the Inner Circle loop line (what we now call the Circle Line) by 1884. This effectively linked several of the main London termini (Paddington, King’s Cross, Liverpool Street, Cannon Street, Victoria) and brought others such as Euston and Charing Cross within a couple of minutes walk of nearby stations. Aldgate was on the Inner Circle line. There were also plenty of lines radiating outwards. According to Mr. Wood, Whitechapel was linked to Liverpool Street in 1885, via Aldgate East. Since 1876 Whitechapel had also been on the East London Railway, which connected Shoreditch to New Cross, some way south of the Thames.
In addition to mainline railways, the underground railway system, the omnibus and cabs, don’t forget the horse tram. The weight that could be pulled by a pair of horses increased considerably when it was mounted on rails. Consequently horse trams could be built with almost twice as many seats as horse buses, thus enabling tram companies to offer cheaper fares. Within a short time of their inception in 1870 trams came to be regarded as the affordable transport of poorer Londoners. (Indeed middle class bastions like Hampstead fought tooth and nail to keep trams out in an attempt to prevent the plebs from encroaching on their neighbourhood). The standard fare was a penny a mile and as with the railways, Parliament ruled that the tram companies had to offer cheap fares for workmen (usually half price) on early morning services and after 6 p.m.
A link from Whitechapel to Bow opened in 1870 and was one of the first tram lines in London. As far as I can ascertain the following services were operating in the vicinity at the time of the murders. All these services were operated by the North Metropolitan Tramways Company.
Bishopsgate Line. Stoke Newington to Bishopsgate via Stoke Newington Road, S.N. High Street, Kingsland Road, Norton Folgate. Distance 3 miles, journey time 30 minutes. White livery. First tram from Stoke Newington at 7:38 a.m. Last at 10:42 p.m. First tram from Norton Folgate at 8:12. Last at 11:16.
Stratford Line. Stratford to Aldgate via Stratford High Street, Bow Road, Mile End Road and Whitechapel Road. Distance 3.9 miles, journey time 38 mins. Blue livery. First tram from Stratford at 5:55 a.m. Last at 11:25 p.m. First tram from Aldgate at 6:40. Last at 00:10. The whole journey cost 3d.
Poplar Line. Poplar to Aldgate via East India Road and Commercial Road. Distance 2.9 miles, journey time 29 mins. Bright yellow livery. First tram from Poplar at 7 a.m. Last at 11:20 p.m. First tram from Aldgate at 7:32. Last at 00:03. The whole journey cost 2d.
The 1894 ordnance map shows Commercial Street covered in tramlines. Maybe somebody can tell us when this was done? It may have been around the time of the Ripper murders. I seem to remember the local papers commenting on the wrangling over the fare structure of the new trams in 1889.
Regards, V. |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 05 April 2001 - 08:27 am | | And again we're all reminded of how much we owe to Spryder and his helpers for creating this fantastically useful research engine.
Martin F |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 05 April 2001 - 10:27 am | | Hear hear - and another item crossed off my shopping list. 
Love,
Caz |
Author: Paul Carpenter
Thursday, 05 April 2001 - 11:13 am | | Chaps - thanks for the kind responses...
On the off chance, I have mailed a set of beserk old train timetable-enthusiasts (who are now saying "I've just received a mail from a beserk old serial-killer enthusiast"!) who study and republish these things, in the hope that they may be able to help on this score. If they get back to me I'll obviously let you know...
What about train/tram times on bank holidays and weekends? Did they become less frequent as they do now?
I would imagine that in the era before the car that services would, if anything, have been more frequent - and run later - on these dates but, again, that is unfounded speculation.
Cheers,
Carps |
Author: The Viper
Thursday, 05 April 2001 - 11:37 am | | On Sundays and at Bank Holidays the trams started one hour later in the morning but ceased running at the same time.
The London Tramways Company which ran services in South London used to schedule its trams every 5-8 minutes (depending on the route) thoughout the day.
You may well find that mainline rail services were more frequent in those days. The old timetables I've seen have suggested as much. That may not be the case on the underground lines though. Overall, the Victorian's public transport system compares favourably with the Third World state of it in Britain today.
Regards, V. |
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