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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Psychopathology and Hermeneutics of Hermaphroditic Murder, Inc
Casebook Message Boards: General Discussion: Medical / Forensic Discussions:
Psychopathology and Hermeneutics of Hermaphroditic Murder, Inc
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Saturday, 24 February 2001 - 08:36 pm |        | Dear All,
I am now firmly ensconsced in our laboratory and me and Tris are here to welcome you all.
Some of you may now be aware of my peculiar predicament which has sadly not been addressed in modern European culture(s). Liberation of Left and Right in politics. Liberation of sexuality in the Gay arena, and the Politics of Feminism, are subjects all to readily advanced in the cause of Western Liberalisation, but I ask you, what about the Hermaphrodite and their place in the history of man/womankind?
Was Jack an Hermaphrodite?
Could this go some way to explaining why his raison d'etre was...a uterus (or two...three?)
Anyone wish to contribute to this exciting new line of enquiry?
Love,
(Atrophied)
Rosemary |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Saturday, 24 February 2001 - 09:05 pm | | Dear Rosemary,
It looks like you will have to warm the subject up for further participation. (No sooner did I tell Tris that we were involved in ground-breaking
work here...the bugger up and did 'a runner'.Home help isn't what it used to be!)
Right.
Hermaphrodites and omophagic tendencies? (eat yer heart out Krafft Ebbing).
Thats a fairly easy opening. Anyone want to pick it up at this point. David Radka? Joseph? Alright then...Ed ?
Love,
Rosemary |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 07:33 am | | Dear Ed,
Hermaphroditic Priesthoods & the Role of Extispicy? Or will we always be only (-1x2=0)to you? :-)
Love,
(Chief of Scribes)
Rosemary |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 09:45 am | | Hello Rosemary,
thanks for the invite, that would be nice. Can I bring my brandy bottle as well as my fags? of course I'll share. Rich Tea are nice, especially when dunked in brandy laced tea.
But no cannibal tricks,--lick but no biting.
Ahh, brings back memories, thou restorest mine soul ROSIE,
All the best Rick |
Author: Jack D. Killian
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 10:07 am | | Very interesting Rosemary....a hermaphrodite.
This suggestion would be a foundation for explaining a lot of Jack's (or Jackie's) ;-) motivation.
But, how do we begin to gather facts to confirm or eliminate this type of possibility?
Again, exhuming the bodies of victims and suspects comes to mind. Is this feasible?
The notion that the real Jack is someone who has not yet been identified casts a pervasive shadow on our quest for the truth.
Hs & Ks,
JDK |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 10:45 am | | Dear Rick,
George, called me his "steak pudding and mushy peas",but it was my Rosemary Ripple that really had him screaming..."sporevil!" He was a bit of a glutton was my George - guess what finished him?
Welcome to the feast, Rick. :-))
Love,
Rosemary. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 10:55 am | | Dear Jack (Kill.ani.1 ?),
Welcome aboard Tiger!You raise a number of valid points.
How do we begin to evaluate the suspect as an hermaphrodite. All hermaphrodites in my book are suspect, Jack.
Consider, the suspect may be breath-takingly beautiful with a bag filled with exotic delights...Who cares if he/she/it is Jack the Ripper!
Love,
Rosemary |
Author: Triston Marc Bunker
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 02:35 pm | | Hi all,
Sorry I've been away for a day or two. I was imprisoned in Rosmary's top secret laboratory being tested on to see if I was a hermaphrodite. I must say that some of her torture methods are quite horrific (mark my words, lads, where she put those electrodes you don't want to know).
But giving thought to the theory that JtR may have been a hermaphrodite I have thought of a question. Were there any circuses in town ? Surely a victorian hermaphrodite would have been sold to a circus by embarrassed parents.
Maybe the individual in question looked so much of one gender he/she could have passed themselves off as of the "norm" ?
I must go back to laboratory now, Rosemary tells me she's doing an experiment that involves Deep Heat and a can of whipped cream. This I must see.
Tris |
Author: David M. Radka
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 08:31 pm | | | Poof!! |
Author: Jack D. Killian
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 09:48 pm | | Does David's Poof!! mean he is outta here? Or, is he on a chocolate poof kick again?
Rosemary be careful...you may be giving me a new moniker on the boards....Jack the Tiger ;-)
JDK |
Author: Joseph
Sunday, 25 February 2001 - 10:28 pm | | Mr. Radka,
Have you tried white rice, or bananas? |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 04:32 am | | The Crying Game's got nothing on the Casebook!
Hi Tris,
Don't let Rosy add a cherry to the whipped cream - it might look so good, you'll eat it yourself! 
Hi David,
Don't worry too much, they mightn't even fancy you for dinner.
Love,
Caz
Live and let love - live and let die - jeckyll and hyde - hide and seek kill - Mr and Mrs? It's only Monday morning and my funnel's filling up already - help! |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 08:47 am | | Can anybody tell me anything about the condition of 'pseudohermaphroditism', said to have been suffered by Elizabeth Short 'the Black Dahlia', and resulting in her having 'immature genitals' which made normal sexual intercourse impossible?
Martin Fido |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 09:13 am | | Dear All,
Having temp problems with my works. Back ASAP. |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 09:36 am | | Hi Martin:
Here is the definition of "pseudohermaphroditism" given in Obstetric-Gynecologic Terminology, F. A. Davis Company, Philadelphia, 1972, p. 264:
Pseudohermaphroditism is a condition in which a person is distinctly one sex, possessing either testes or ovaries, but there is ambiguity or contradiction in the morphologic appearance of the other genital structures.
In other words, in the case of Elizabeth Short, she was definitely a female in terms of possessing ovaries but she apparently lacked a fully formed vagina that would allow normal sexual intercourse.
Writer John Gilmore, author of Severed: The True Story of the Black Dahlia Murder, in writing his book on the case consulted with Dr. John Money, an expert on hermaphroditism at the Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore.
Gilmore's suspect, Wilson, a transient alcoholic, seems more likely than the suspect proposed in the recent book by Mary Pacios, Childhood Shadows: The Hidden Story of the Black Dahlia Murder, in which she proposes Orson Welles as the Black Dahlia murderer based, among other things, on the fact that he was a magician and would "saw" women in half and on stills from the set of "The Lady from Shanghai" supposedly showing a woman cut in half. The proposal of a celebrity such as Welles as the Black Dahlia murderer seems as outrageous as Richard Wallace's advocacy of Lewis Carroll as Jack the Ripper.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 09:40 am | | Dear Martin,
You raise a rare question, indeed! The condition you speak of is a PARTIAL development of an 'evolutionary gender', known as, hermaphroditism...in this case, pseudohermaphroditism is the un/incompleted gender.I am fortunate in being one of nature's little secrets.
Love,
(lucky)
Rosemary |
Author: Jade Bakys
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 09:40 am | | Hi Martin
Female Pseudohermaphroditism
but only clinical seeing as we are in the laboratory:
Causes
Deficiencies of enzyme activity
3B Hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase - Type 2
Chromosome: 1p13.1
21-Hydroxylase
Chromosome: 6p21.3
11B-Hydroxylase - Type 1
Chromosome 8q21
Deficiencies of placental or germ-line aromatase
Maternal androgen excess
Virilizing luteoma
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia
Ingestion of androgens, synthetic Estrogens
Eponymic Syndromes
Fraser syndrome
VACTERL association
Signs
Internal genitalia are female
External genitalia are masculinized
There are squillions of pages on the net though if you want to know how the condition might have affected someone psychologically. |
Author: Jade Bakys
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 09:52 am | | And here is a bit more for the the lab boys and girls if we are looking for a specific syndrome:
Drash Syndrome is a very rare disorder that typically appears for no apparent reason (sporadically). In rare cases, it may be inherited as an autosomal dominant genetic trait. This disorder usually appears early in life. In its complete form, it is characterized by the combination of abnormal kidney function, genital abnormalities (pseudohermaphroditism), and a cancerous tumor of the kidney called a Wilms' tumor. Some affected individuals may have the incomplete form of Drash Syndrome, which consists of abnormal kidney function with either genital abnormalities (pseudohermaphroditism) or Wilms' tumor. This disorder predominantly affects males but a few female cases have been reported. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 10:52 am | | Dear All,
The diagnosis does'nt sound good!I think I've opened up a can of worms. No, David, I won't do an email scan for $3.00. Tris, I must say, you come out with some bizarre ideas about 'freaks'.
But I had to laugh at the thought of me behind bars of a Victorian circus sideshow, next to the Bearded Lady...flapping my pinafore up and down, as the straightlaced ladies came by.
Jade, we must not forget that there are many squillions of pages available on the net, but only on the Casebook will you find an homicidal "hermaphro" at work!
Ed, can a hermaphro be a Jew...or are they strangled at birth?
However, the foundation of European and other civilizations are founded on this very dichotomy!
Love,
Rosemary
(our own pet name for each other) |
Author: Jade Bakys
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 11:51 am | | | Has our very own Jack(ie) homicidal hermo with ambiguous genitalia been subjected to rigorous hermeneutic theory by our very own epistemologist, (not mentioning any names David oops), who would prefer to take the whole and not just an analysis of his/her/its two parts, in relation to the whole, and erm so on and so forth? J |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 06:46 pm | | Dearly Beloved,
Our Jack(ie)'s thoughts are now turning to the 'conception' of a passionate desire to do something about this 'itch'.His/her thoughts are swayed one way then another...the object of his/her desire is that of owning his/her very own uterus (the purpose of 'possession' is, at the moment, obscure).
The first question, (are you reading this, David,)
is, "Am I up to the crime"?
This first question can only be answered in one way...but, implicit in this question are two further questions: do I have the 'skill', and, how shall I accomplish the deed?
SKILL, where, and on whom, can I practice without
suspicion being aroused. A singular and vexatious problem?
If, one decides that no skill is required here, then we move on...
Love,
Rosemary |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 08:40 pm | | Hi, all:
The Black Dahlia murder case has been mentioned on this board and in addition to the two books I mentioned in my last post, I would like to mention Pamela Hazelton's excellent Black Dahlia website, which has a lot of interesting information on the case. Go to
http://www.bethshort.com/
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 26 February 2001 - 09:34 pm | | Dear All,
On the other hand, if there is more than one murderer, this would rule out the 'hermaphroditic
murderer' scenario.
Back to Jack and his object of obscure desire:
Honing one's skill. It is possible that a friend has access to a teaching hospital's morgue...but how certain can we be of this 'friend' when the heat is on?
Jack could, of course...hide a crime in a crime!Some criminals are intelligent criminals, they also have their own entrancies and exits...and the more intelligent like to create their own mysteries.And who is Rosemary to gainsay them?
The astute would search all incidents of previous murders for a distinctly mutilated torso...lacking the lower part!?
Love,
Rosemary |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 27 February 2001 - 05:48 am | | Dear All,
After some serious consideration, I have decided to terminate this little experiment of the excavation of a homicidal psyche, due to the distinct sense of unease it appears to be generating among the more nervous 'viewers' and emailers among us. So, for awhile, I'm "layin'low and sayin' nuffink".
Love,
Rosemary |
Author: Jade Bakys
Tuesday, 27 February 2001 - 09:24 am | | | awe |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Wednesday, 28 February 2001 - 05:16 pm | | Dear Tris,
We are back on our own again! The first epistle of the Hermeneutics: that one act can be hidden by another act.
A homicide can be 'hidden' in a conflagration. A stolen uterus can be 'hidden' in the disposal of
an upper torso. In the Criminologica Dialectica, I supply many of examples of such 'masking' techniques, used by both the professional criminal and the Intelligence Arm of Government.
The second epistle, will be an illustration of
how one person may be two (or more)persons, and conversely, how two or three persons may be one person...especially via the distorting lense of
of narrative history. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Wednesday, 28 February 2001 - 06:18 pm | | Dear Tris,
Forget it. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Thursday, 01 March 2001 - 04:25 am | | Dear All,
I must now retire before I truly go insane. I have my estate to administer and hundreds of new Europe folk to welcome to my castle in Ogland.
Love from Rosemary and Davidoz. (Sorry Ed!)
David Og MacDonald. |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 01 March 2001 - 06:11 am | | That's a pity, David.
I was hoping you would stay, and perhaps even put up a photo of yourself. A little birdie told me about one you kindly sent him some time ago. :-)
All the best,
Caz |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Thursday, 01 March 2001 - 07:03 am | | Dear Caroline,
I shall sent one of my informal portraits (unmanacled!)...an hermaphroditic pose.
Love,
D.O.G. |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Thursday, 01 March 2001 - 07:30 am | | | |
Author: Triston Marc Bunker
Thursday, 01 March 2001 - 03:30 pm | | To All,
Sorry I've been away, I work in the meat industry and have been trying to keep my head while all around are loosing their.
Rosemary, let me get this straight....... oh sod that, anyone fancy a pint ?
Tris |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Friday, 02 March 2001 - 04:03 am | | I'll get me coat - or should that be kilt? 
Love,
Caz |
Author: Sarah R. Jacobs
Monday, 21 May 2001 - 06:11 pm | | About the "Can a hermaphro[dite] be a Jew" question:
Yes. In the Babylonian Talmud, Book of Nashim ("Book of Women"), and in all corresponding sections on menstruation, hermaphrodites are mentioned and codified. They have pretty much the same rights and restrictions as eunuchs, and, since hermaphrodites are "half-woman," they are, like mulattoes of pre-Civil-War America, classed with the "oppressed" side. That is, the mulattoes (unless they could (illegally) "pass" as white) were called "black" except when they were sold, because where money was involved, they were lighter-skinned and more european, so they were more high-priced slaves, prettier by racist standards of the day, and, so, valuable as house slaves (ornament plus appliance). Hermaphrodites, as I recall, also had more control over their persons than women, but the books say (I think and I'll have to look it up) that they "cannot marry men," so they were definitely classed as "deformed women." But under no circumstances were they "strangled at birth." It was thought that they had no control over what had happened to them, and that they should probably try to forgive their mothers and try to be proud of themselves as scholars, if they wanted to aspire to that great Jewish honor of Torah Scholar. They couldn't marry, though, and also couldn't enter the priesthood, even if they were Cohanim ("Coheins", where the (Jewish versions of the) names "Cohn," "Kahn" (but not (directly) "Khan"), "Cohen," "Cahn," "Priestly" (the Jewish "Benedicts" are also a translation-- from "Baruch"), "Prester", and "Priest" etc. come from), and could not be underpriests ("Levim", or, "Levites", where (Jewish) Levys, Levis (like the bluejeans. Levi and Strauss and, in fact, Levi-Strauss, were Jewish), LeVays, Levines, Le Vines, etc, come from). They had to visit the mikveh (MICK-vah), or, ritual bath, if they menstruated, and there were complex and arcane procedures for deciding who actually was a Hermaphrodite and who wasn't (it might surprise you to read they rules, but, more probably, you'd fall asleep before you got finished). There were also degrees of hermaphroditism as well as of eunuch-hood. There were, I think, special rules, meant as consolation prizes for eunuchs who got that way as a results of an incompetent mohel (MO-ell, or MOIL. Circumcisor.). There are enough rules in the Talmud that it was, by the time it was finished, at least ten volumes of case law with at least sixteen contradictory opinions on each point.
But, Final Answer is: Yes, there are Hermaphroditic Jews, and, No, they are and were not strangled to death at birth. Here's a friendly rule my Hebrew School principal, Rabbi Kula, gave me: Two Jews, Three Opinions (and that's before they start the discussion!). It would be too much to ask a Rabbi to just put the kid out of its misery (JOKING. Imagine that sentence as spoken by Woody Allen). The kid could be eighty-five before they decided what to do with it. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 21 May 2001 - 08:43 pm | | Dear Sarah,
Your post is most informative. I had no idea that the Babylonian Talmud contained a ...codex hermaphroditus! The "strangulation at birth", was
meant, tongue-in-cheek...forgive my perverse sense of humour...and I feel that if Jack the Ripper had been such an unfortunate Jew he would have been gratified to know that you have put the record straight. :-)
And, if I may indulge my curiousity...what do you know of the Atbash cypher?
Yours respectfully,
Rosey O'Ryan :-) |
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