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Gary Weatherhead
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Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 4:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In a particularly disturbing little book I have called Death Scens- A Homicide Detectives Scrapbook-by Katherine Dunn There is a very interesting account complete with photo's of a man who may have tried to do JTR one better.
Otto Steven Wilson killed two prostitutes on 11-15-44. The murders were particularly similar to that of Catherine Eddowes. Wilson was caught on the same night trying to pick up another prostitute.

In the photo of Wilson taken while in police custody, he is relaxed composed and as ordinary a fellow as you could imagine. He was a shipyard cook and, I would believe he had some rough anatomical knowledge.

I guess my point is that JTR was the same type.
Someone who may well have been questioned by the police and allowed to go upon giving an account of himself.

I'm not convinced that Liz Stride was a Ripper victim. Nevertheless he was accorded the double event and Wilson may have been trying to 'one up' JTR. He was immdeiately nicknamed Steve the Ripper and was put to death in 1946.

Best Regards
Gary
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 92
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 1:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi ALL

Just a quick follow up; Wilson would have been technically a spree killer. But if he had not been caught I am confient he would have gone on to become a true serial killer. Unless of course he did kill before the night of 11-15-44, which is a possibility.

Best
Gary
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Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido

Post Number: 93
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 9:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

H'mmm... have you any other examples, Gary, of a spree killer (going on a rapid rampage from one killing to the next, usually with no more than a day or so interval between killings) "maturing" into a serial killer, capable of holding back for weeks or months until the next opportune moment occurs?
All the best,
Martin F
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 99
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi. Martin

A spree killer is gnerally meant to be one who kills a number of people on a rampage at the same time or on the same day. I believe Wilson would have gone on to kill over a longer period if he were not caught. He was more a serial killer to my mind than a spree killer

In Her book KILLING FOR SPORT, Pat Brown defines a seial killer as "...(A)n individual who kills on at least three occasions, with a cooling off period between killings to 'emotionally cool off...he takes time after killing to go back to his normal life. ...(S)pree killers and mass muderers are guys who kill on just one occasion in their lives and take out a bunch of people in one hurrah. These guys usually wind up dead at the end of the day."

Ted Bundy was a serial killer who took the opposite approach. He was a serial killer over a long period of time and went on a spree killing
by breaking into a sorority house in Florida. He killed two women, and horribly abused three others. He then went out, cooled off and a while later killed a twelve year old girl whose name I recall as Kimberly Leach(sp?). This is the killing that resulted in his capture since he left an identifiable bite mark on the body.

So there you have a killer who spree killed and then cooled off and then acted out as a serial killer on a later occasion.

By the way it's possible Wilson had killed in serial fashion before and then went on a combination serial/spree killing. These guys usually go through a dry run killing (or attempt) and then cool off, refine their methods and try again. But then again there is nothing truely definite about a serial killers M.O. or background as some profilers would have us believe.

All The Best
Gary
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Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido

Post Number: 94
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 1:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Starkweather and Fugate are usually cited as typical spree killer/s, with murders spread over a week. (Their initial "cooling off period" in bed, eating out the refrigerator after he'd killed her parents isn't taken as a serial killer's type of cooling off).
All the best,
Martin F
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 101
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 1:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Martin

Starkweather was a particularly nasty little chap with a big chip on his shoulder. I would see their whole saga as more of a protracted rage induced murder spree than anything else.

Like Bonnie and CLyde they knew it was only a matter of time before they were caught or killed. As in the case of a few male, female killer couples they seemed to spark in each other a kind of synergy.

Incidently Starkweather as you may know was a pathetic coward who gave himself up after he was barely clippd by a bullet. He panicked when he saw his own blood and folded like a deck of cards.

Best
Gary
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Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido

Post Number: 96
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 5:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Agreed Starkweather was a spree killer - so a spree doesn't have to be one outing with no overnight stops.
Don't agree Clyde Barrow was. He was a serial killer motivated by psychopathic criminal avarice rather than erotic rage.

All the best,
Martin F
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Detective Sergeant
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 104
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 5:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Martin

A spree need not be one outing. We are venturing into a matter of semantics.

I mentioned Barrow as a possible example of the way a couple of killers can create a kind of synergy. There was no erotic rage in his case. (There is reasonable evidence in the various books and true crime documentary's that I own that show he was likely either homosexual or, more likely bisexual whose natural inclination was toward homosexuality) As for avarice as a motivation you are right. That, as well as a refusal to do an honest days work. Recall that he had a couple of his toes chopped of by agreement with a fellow inmate while in prison to avoid doing hard labor/labour.

John Dillinger called him an embarrassment to all bankrobbers. For all his attempts at theft he came away with hardly enough to live on. Yet he killed with abandon.

All The Best
Gary
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Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido

Post Number: 98
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 6:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Agree with all you say about Barrow. But don't agree that he ever went on a spree. He didn't kill for killing's sake: he killed to escape arrest or any other obstruction of his getaway, and to eliminate resistance to his robberies.
All the best,
Martin F
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Chris Donlan
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Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello. I know it's a bit late, but my grandfather was the LA beat cop who caught Otto Steven Wilson. His name was Sergeant Harry Donlan. It's quite a story, actually...
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 559
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 4:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris

I would love to have you post the details on Wilson and his capture, or you can feel free to e-mail me.

I have never seen crime scene photos which remind me so much of what Jack The Ripper did to Mary Kelly and Kate Eddowes.

All The Best
Gary
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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3020
Registered: 10-1997
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is an article on the Casebook related to this case, found by (who else?) Chris Scott. :-)

http://casebook.org/press_reports/oxnard_press_courier/441116.html


Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 560
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 5:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stephen

Many thanks and glad to see you back.

All The Best
Gary
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Alex Cortes
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Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 3:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey guys !
I also have looked into the Otto Steven Wilson murders. I would definitely venture to guess that he had read something at some point about JTR, because other than the span of years between the 2 murderers I'd almost call these copycat killings. I don't believe that removal of the uterus is a common thing even for the worst serial killers, yet that's what Wilson did to Virginia Griffin and started to do to Ms. Johnson (he attempted it with a straight razor and probably stopped when he realized he had the wrong implement). In viewing the crime scene photos, however, I believe wholeheartedly that Wilson had done it before, that he would have done it again if not caught, and that it was completely premeditated. There was an unsolved crime of a very similar nature in the same vicinity a month before (mother and daughter found mutilated) and Wilson was already a resident in the area. Additionally he had divorced a year previously because his wife had "had enough of his bizzare sexual impulses".
Wilson told the cops that he flipped out because Ms. Griffin wanted more money, but if it was a mere moment of madness then what the hell was he doing with a massive butcher knife? Not the sort of thing one carries for self protection. And then why the hell did he go to town on her corpse? From the look of the crime scene photos his chopping and hacking looked quite recreational and inspired. A sadistic maniac's idea of mind blowing sex. In fact I'd say he enjoyed it so much he had to go do it again a couple hours later. And as I mentioned earlier the pictures do not in any way suggest a first offense. I suppose Wilson would be classified as a disorganized offender as he took very few steps to not get caught, but I would most definitely call him a serial killer.
I understand patrolman Donlan got praised highly for the apprehension, and I would love to hear the story from his grandson.
I wonder why Wilson's name has never appeared in any modern literature about crime. L.A. has an extremely dark history, but other than the Black Dahlia the city is far more known for being the capitol of the entertainment industry and that's what history seems to focus on. There were political scandals all through the 20's, 30's and 40's that would rival Tamany Hall at its worst, yet somehow most of it seems to have disolved into history. Very little has been written about the subject and one has to really dig to even get info. on people like Wilson or Clara Phillips (who killed and disembowled a teenage girl with a claw hammer because she thought her husband was doing her) or Otto Sanhuber (very bizzare story), all stories that were celebrated in their time but seem to have gone no further (to say nothing of the police and political scandals, the LAPD was notorious long before Rampart).
In fact, if Jack Huddleston had not put together his infamous scrapbook and if it hadn't fallen into the hands of the people who would eventually release it I doubt we'd even be discussing Wilson with regard to JTR.
Take it easy

ALEX}}}
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 568
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Alex

If we had a chance to go back and do a serious investigation into Wilson's background and interview him comprehensively, I believe we would find ourself with a man whose mind was very much in the mold of JTR.

As you indicate it is strange that he has been largely overlooked by crime historians.

All The Best
Gary
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 569
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

P.S. Wasn't Otto Sanhuber the mousy little man who lived for a very extended period in the attic of his dominant female lover's home, while the husband never suspected anything was going on, until such time as they felt it was necessary to kill him?
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alex cortes
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Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 5:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Gary,

How goes it. You sure don't look like a lawyer, but you can't judge a book by its cover. Otto Sanhuber lived in the attic of Fred and Dolly Oestereich for 3 years in Chicago and then followed the couple out to L.A. where he proceeded to do the same for another 9 years. Back in Chicago Fred had warned Otto (who had been one of his employees) to stay away from Dolly and even threatened to have him killed. He probably never imagined for a minute that Otto would follow them out to L.A. Fred knew Dolly was constantly unfaithful, but ignored it mostly because he was impotent and far more interested in his business than his marriage anyway. Dolly (who to my modern eyes didn't look even remotely attractive) would get it on with just about anybody that would have her and Otto would watch from the attic (Fred was a succesful businessman and gone alot). Eventually Otto killed Fred because he thought Fred was gonna kill Dolly during a heated argument over her infidelities. For reasons too lengthy to get into here Otto and Dolly were both acquitted. Otto disappeared shortly thereafter and is rumored to have ended up in a funny farm. At any rate, the scrapbook of crime scene photos collected by Jack Huddleston is my absolute favorite of all my real gore stuff. Unfortunately I've been unable to find out a thing about the man as the L.A.P.D. is not exactly famous for their "customer service" and does not give the public access to much of anything. Before going on to the L.A.P.D. Huddleston was with the Santa Monica P.D. and they've been just as useless. I've actually corresponded with the guy whose hands it fell into in the mid 80's who would eventually release it. I actually enquired about flying to Atlanta to view the original and found out to my amazement that after making the find of the century for any gore hound he actually gave the damn thing away! And its current owner is a total weirdo that would not be open to letting anybody view the artifact. I also have a video narrated by Anton LeVey that's actually better than the book because it has more photos. Because Kathy Dunn's text is so rambling and over-indulgent many didn't make it into the book. Anyhow, even Huddleston himself noticed the similarity between Otto Steven Wilson and JTR. One thing I did not mention in my first posting is that another reason I don't believe the killing was spur of the moment is because Ms. Griffin's body is obviously posed for maximum shock value. This is quite common amongst serial killers. Like an art presentation or something. Additionally, though they didn't specify it Wilson's next victim is 2 pages over in the book (the lady strangled on the bed with blood all over her mouth and several slashes to her body). If you look closely the DR# is different by one digit and the date (11/15/44) is the same. Unlike many serial killers(including JTR), however, Wilson's actions indicate that he almost wanted to get caught, though I know many people say nowadays they would probably be able to catch JTR with modern forensic technology. The timeline for 11/15/44 is apparently this: he killed Ms. Griffin (a severe alcoholic who despite having a husband who supported her still seemed to feel it necessary to prostitute herself)at 8:30 AM (!), then went to the movies (a horror flick called the Walking Dead), then picked up and murdered Ms. Johnson (another alcoholic and prostitute) at 3:00 PM, was apprehended by Harold Donlan (responding to an APB based on several people who saw Wilson) at a bar 3 doors down and then confessed almost immediately. Donlan said Wilson was alone when nabbed, so I don't know if he was fixin' to do more slashing that very night or not, but I have no doubt he wasn't gonna stop until nailed and that he'd done it before. Then again, the events of that day are so haphazard and strange that it could indicate a first time, but I don't doubt for a minute it was totally premeditated. As I mentioned before it's highly doubtful anybody would carry a 9 inch carving knife for protection and the body was not only obviously posed but the damage to the body was way too extensive for it to be a case of spur of the moment rage. I find it very interesting that Wilson has been so totally ignored by crime historians as in my oppinion his crimes are basically JTR copycats many years after the fact, and what he did was easily as brutal as the murder of Elizabeth Short.
But again L.A.'s darker side during the 20's, 30's and 40's seems to have been largely swept under the rug in the historical sense, possibly because the politicians and cops during that era were so horribly and shamelessly corrupt that any investigation into L.A.'s dark side could have brought unwanted incursions into other areas. Another highly celebrated case of its time that has disolved into history is that of Albert Dyer. In 1937 the eccentric crossing guard lured 3 girls (Melba Everett, age 9, Madeliene Everett, age 7, and Jeanette Stevens, age 8) to a remote area under the auspices of hunting rabbits (L.A. was alot less developed at the time). He then systematically strangled and then raped all 3. He claimed the rapes were post mortem, but we'll never know. He then for reasons known only to himself arranged their shoes in an orderly line while leaving their bodies sprawled in the dirt and bushes like garbage. Like many serial killers Dyer was there when the bodies were discovered, and for 3 days was constantly in touch with the cops either offering suggestions or trying to get updates. As a result he eventually brought suspicion on himself (he wasn't even considered a suspect at first) and eventually made a full confession (like Wilson his gizzard was fried a year later). And like Wilson it is pretty unlikely it was his first offense and highly probable he would have done it again. I mention this mostly because it's yet another great example of a highly publicized case in its time that has completely disolved into history. You would not believe the lengths I've had to go to to find out any info. on the cases beyond Huddleston's brief descriptions and I still don't have much. If anybody knows of any resources beyond the newspapers of the time on microfilm for finding out more about these sort of crimes please let me know. As a result of the scrapbook I'm completely obsessed with post 1950's crime and find it a real bummer that the info. is so sparse.
Until next time

ALEX THE LONG WINDED
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alex cortes
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Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 9:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carole Ann Fugate was the prototype for people like Karla Homolka in Canada years later. Everytime a male/female crime team gets nabbed the female always claims that she was coerced by this demon she was sleeping with and that (in Karla Homolka's own words) "I'm just as much a victim as any of the victims" and law enforcement and the legal system are almost always in a hurry to believe it. Many people (including Canadian feminists) were outraged over the lenient deal Homolka managed to get herself despite the videos showing her as a willing participant. Her husband apparently beat the crap out of her shortly before she turned on him and that seemed to be all the proof they needed. It is also known that she read up rather extensively in jail all about "battered woman's syndrome" and apparently played the judge and jury like a harp. Though Carol Fugate did end up doing some serious time I believe that alot of women live vicariously through their crazy men because the guy has the balls to do what they only think about. It is also well known that women are almost without exception dealt with far more leniently by the legal system, and I'm sure that was also true in Starkweather's time. From what I understand despite being an absolute scumbag Charlie actually did try to protect Carol at first, but that once he found out that she was trying to get a better deal for herself by rolling over on him he abruptly gave the cops the whole nine yards and I for one believe he told the truth and that she was a full participant on a thrill ride of evil deeds (as I mentioned earlier living vicariously through her psychotic boyfriend). Just like Karla Homolka she had numerous opportunities to turn her dude in or at least to escape and not participate and I don't buy that she was "so totally under his control" that she simply had no choice but to take part in the carnage. I believe if she hadn't have gotten blasted Bonnie would probably have done the same thing to Clyde and that despite all the endless photos of her posing proudly with the firearms she, too, would probably have been believed.

ALEX
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 570
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HI Alex

I'm not practicing law at the moment. I practiced for quite a few years doing public interest law and got burnt out as well as physically sick with ulcers for a time. I am taking some time off and I am presently a dealer in sports, political, historical, entertainment and true crime memorabilia. I have been asked to return by my old firm and I expect I will go back soon.

Thanks for posting the information. I can see you are just as fascinated as I am by the macabre Death Scenes book and of course I have the videos in my possession. This material is not everyones' cup of tea and it takes a strong stomach to actually see the results of the handiwork of the serial killers that we so casually discuss.

Please keep us posted on your efforts to get primary source material on the cases we have discussed.

All The Best
Gary

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alex cortes
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Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 4:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wassapenin!

I'm actually from L.A. and have lived here most of my life (unfortunately) and some of the reasons why I love that book is because it's absolutely fascinating that the vast majority of visual info. from that era is totally milk toast and mostly centered on the entertainment industry and Huddleston's book shows the dark side of the reality of every day life for ordinary citizens. And again most L.A. crime from that era has been largely forgotten I think possibly because L.A. is the media capitol of the world and the media has deliberately focused on the glitz and glamor to the exclusion of things like Wilson & Sanhuber (both stories that are fascinating in a ciminological sense and quite bizzare). What I also find interesting is that the sort of crimes one finds have not changed to this day, although they say the era was overall somewhat safer than American cities are now. And again I believe wholeheartedly that Wilson was basically a JTR copycat killer so I really don't understand how that one slipped through the cracks (perhaps because Wilson got nabbed, unlike JTR or the Black Dahlia killer). And funny, too, when you think about what 3rd. class citizens blacks and hispanics were back then(Asians only slightly better) and almost everybody in the book is white. It would have been nice if they had put more pictures and less wordage, though. They left out alot of interesting stuff. I have looked up several of the cases on microfilm and have newspaper stories on alot of them (including the series in the middle of the book showing the shotgun murder/suicide that has no explanation).
I will no doubt obtain more as time goes on.
Why do you think Liz Stride was not a JTR victim?
Do you think it was a copycat (far less likely back then but not out of the question, media wasn't as powerful or ubiquitous) or a similar crime for similar motives ? And what about the Torso slayer ? He killed men and women (unusual for a serial, as they generally tend to be hetero men killing women or homo men killing men). JTR stuck to women as far as we know.
Til next......
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 572
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Alex

I have my doubts about Stride as a JTR victim because I do not believe she was strangled or partially strangled and then murdered as I believe the other victims were. Her throat was cut once, not twice as with the other victims by a short bladed rather than a long bladed knife. The wound was not nearly as deep as that of the other victims. Further, the wound did not encircle the neck to the same extent as in the other cases.

I also believe that her assailant allowed himself to be widely seen abusing her before the murder. This was not in keeping with JTR's M.O.

These are just my views based on the eyewitnesses and the medical evidence. I would say I am partially convinced she was killed by a street thug.

You mention the Torso killer. If I recall he killed a couple of women if we discount the so called 'lady of the lake'. I believe that Flo Polillo was killed because she knew something about the killer and was therefore a threat to him.

Of course these are just my opinions. I could be dead wrong on some counts.

All The Best
Gary
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alex cortes
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Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Praise the Lord folks !
Myra Hindley bought the farm last Friday.
Do any of you know who she is ?
Great loss to humanity, huh ?
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 315
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Excuse me being a bit naive here, but didn't Myra die last year? I felt it just wonderful that she died before she could get paroled. Now if only Ian could follow her quickly.

Salt of the earth...or brimstone of the pit?

Jeff
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alex cortes
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Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 2:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey people,

I only read about Myra kicking off recently, but you may be right (I haven't exactly followed the case). I've been to Britain 3 times and actually stayed in Manchester with friends and I was told that arrangements were made years ago amongst several different groups that if Myra or Ian ever got out of prison they would be murdered and I believe what they were telling me was true. So parole wouldn't have made any difference. It's just too bad she didn't go out like Jeff Dahmer. At any rate I think the death penalty is too merciful for serials and actually think being warehoused for life is not only cheaper but a much better punishment. I understand that even though they always put on a brave face during interviews serials are more miserable than anybody in prison because they're only below child molesters on the pecking order (they're especially hated if they've killed women) and cannot indulge in their little hobby and are therefore forced to live with their miserable selves 24 hours a day. And since they ironically seem to fear death even more than your average Joe (remember what a baby Bundy was about meeting the grim reaper) even suicide isn't an option.
I've read many times that serials and hit men and anybody else that deals in death will usually cry like little girls when they know their time is up.
To change the subject I read recently that Americans make up the vast majority of serials, but I don't believe that to be true. Britain, Mexico, Russia, Mainland China, Colombia and Brazil all have equally (per capita) large populations of serials, yet it isn't publicized anywhere nearly like it is in the States and most of those countries do not bother keeping accurate statistics on the subject. In Medellin, Colombia alone they say there may be as many as 10 serials in operation at any one time, but of course that city has so much murder anyway that it's hard to keep track of who died what way. And lord knows Britain has produced some real beauties as well (Myra and Ian, the Wests, Peter Sutcliffe, John Christie, Dennis Nilsen, George Haigh, Colin Ireland). By the way, are the 2 famous photos of Myra in bleach and Ian with a rockabilly their mug shots ? There's no numbers in the photos, but maybe they don't do the info. placard thing in Britain.
Til next.....

Alex the long winded
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 319
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 8:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Alex,

While Haigh is a serial killer, he's a little unique compared with the others - his murders were basically financial at their cause. He certainly profited from most of them - up to Mrs. Durand Deacon's before he was arrested. I don't think that is true about the ones you listed with him. It would have possibly been true about H.H.Holmes of Johann Hoch.

Best wishes,

Jeff
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Neale Carter
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ncarter

Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day Alex,

You're probably right abou the seamy side of LA not being in the conventional view of the city. Hoewever the Black Dahlia, films like LA Confidential and some 40's film noir give a hint to outsider that the City of Angels had a dank underbelly at odds with the glamour tinsel of
Hollywood.

By the way, was there in 97 and managed to get off the beaten track a bit and had a great time.

Neale
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alex cortes
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 4:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anybody know anything about the brick/bat killer ? He was a black serial who would beat women to death with a brick or a bat and then place a pillow over the face and violate the corpse (I think they call that necrophilia). The story is featured in the Death Scenes video but not the book so I haven't been able to find anything about it.
As you look at the JTR story I believe JTR had more copycats than just Otto Steven Wilson, so it's really odd that the copycats of the most famous serial in history have all basically been ignored or overlooked. Is there a specific name for the disorder that makes one want to cut up a body for pleasure and not just disposal ?
By the way, the Yorkshire Ripper is a misnomer because Pete Suttcliffe stabbed his victims and then finished them off with a hammer. He never did any splicing jobs like Jack or Otto.
By the way, I've read stuff about the middle ages in Europe which leads me to believe that even then serials would do their dirty work and then dump the bodies near enough to town's that when the villagers discovered them they were mostly eaten by wolves (Europe was much wilder back then) which is one thing that lead to the horrible persecution and slaughter of these magnificent beasts and their association with evil (like human beings have any room to talk !)
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alex cortes
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Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 6:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey dudes,

It's me again. I'll try to keep it short but will probably fail in that endeavor. As luck would have it, after I found this site and started chatting about Otto I serendipitously met a gentleman whose father was an L.A.P.D. homicide detective who was actually at the murder scenes. He says that his father told him that everybody at the crime scene of Ms. Griffin had nightmares and that many had to undergo therapy. Additionally, the hotel maid who found the carnage quit her job the next day and commited suicide 2 months later. He also stated that Otto steadfastly denied partaking of any other crimes, but that the cops believed wholeheartedly that he was responsible for at least 3 others in the area and since he was sentenced to death anyway they gave up on trying to link him and left the matters unsolved. Apparently Wilson was also a very intelligent and pleasant individual who willingly accepted his fate and made no attempts to launch any appeals.
And this guy's father also verified that the L.A.P.D. and the District Atty's office during "the Golden Age" were probably the most corrupt in the country. Apparently his father was eventually forced into early retirement with a partial pension because he was a bit of a Frank Serpico in his time and that he's not sure how he even managed to stay in law enforcement as long as he did (his father complained to his family all the time what hell it was trying to be an honest cop in L.A.).

Just an interesting footnote.
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Chris Donlan
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Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Me again – sorry for the delay between posts. I hadn’t expected that much interest in the story of Wilson’s capture – it’s pretty “off topic” for the site in general. Anyway, here we go. (My main sources, incidentally, are the story as told to me by my dad, and a book on the LAPD written by Jack Webb, which has a fairly lengthy profile of my grandfather. Any factual inaccuracies, as they say on TV, are probably mine.)

Grandpa’s name was Harry Donlan, and I think his general beat was Pershing Square which is right in the middle of whatever Downtown LA actually possesses. (Trivia: it’s the site of Dennis Hopper’s drop-off point towards the end of Speed.) Harry’s greatest asset, apparently, was a photographic memory so powerful that it’s something of a family legend. I know it sounds ridiculous or corny, but his memory was almost bizarre – he could see a picture of someone and remember it exactly for years. “He has a genius for the manhunt that [most other officers] could never, never equal,” wrote Webb, which definitely is corny – but probably true.

Right, so one day, Harry’s called in to work the Gamewell board (the telephonic instrument that receives calls from men out on post. It’s an office shift for the day, “but Harry never did like the inside of a police station…” (Webb again.) Apparently, he was working the board all morning, taking calls and that sort of thing and really getting bored out of his mind. Then, around noon, a want is broadcast for a murder suspect – male, six feet two inches, 195 pounds, blond hair. Harry speaks to his supervising officer, and states pretty plainly that if he didn’t have to work the phones all day, he could catch that murderer. He says it kind of the same way somebody might say, “If I didn’t have to do this laundry, I could go out and get us a pizza.”

Needless to say, the supervising officer thought Harry was just trying to get out of his work. “That’s fine,” he says. “If you want to catch that guy – do it on your lunch break.” Well, long story short, that’s what he did. He’d seen the guy a few days before, you see, and filed the face away just like he filed every other face he saw – and he could remember where Wilson hung out – the bars of Hill Street, between Second and Third Street.

More Webb: “Near one bar… Harry encountered a couple of detectives on the same mission. “Don’t waste your time going in there,” they advised him.” He went in anyway.

Down at the rear of the bar a man and woman are seated together, sipping wine. Harry takes a closer look. The man’s hair was black, not blond, and he had a moustache, but he combed his hair the way Donlan remembered the man he’d originally seen combing his hair – it fell to the left side of his head. So Harry moves in.

“What’s your name?”

“Otto Wilson. Why?” Wilson pats his girlfriend on the leg – she’s bristling at Harry’s presence.

“How long you had those cuts on your fingers?” asks Donlan.

“A week, I guess.”

“Look pretty fresh for a week,” says Donlan, then he notices dried blood on the man’s moustache.

“Must have cut myself shaving,” says Wilson.

Then Harry asks the guy to stand up, handcuffs him quietly and leads him out – all on his lunchbreak.

There. I promise you that’s the story as I know it. I know it’s a little corny, and I know it’s got absolutely nothing to do with Jack the Ripper per se, but when I was a kid, I always found it pretty fascinating. It’s the “do it on your lunchbreak” angle that works for me, as well as the weird stuff about my grandfather’s amazing memory. When the case hit the newspapers, a lot was made of his memory. One newspaper just printed a picture of his eyes with “Harry Dead-Eye Donlan – the eyes that never forget”. (Amusing aside – I have very poor eyesight, and at University when my friends heard the story, they took the opportunity to call me Deadeye Donlan, whenever I spectacularly missed an open goal or sent a pool ball whizzing off the table and into someone’s drink.)

Anyway, that’s my grandfather’s story. I really appreciate having the chance to tell someone about it.
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alex cortes
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 9:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Chris,

Thanx a million. I am fascinated by the OSW story mostly because I've been to the locale where it all went down, and again I cannot understand why what must be an obvious JTR copycat killing has been so totally overlooked by crime historians. Some very interesting details you included, such as that OSW was picking up another whore when arrested and that he had blood on his moustache. I knew he had blood on his hands that he could not completely wash off (looking at the photos of Ms. Griffin there must have been buckets) but the blood on his moustache is eerie indeed. What has always puzzled me about the photos of Ms. Griffin (again the damage to Ms. Johnson was far less extensive because he had a straight razor which won't do the job like a butcher knife and I think he gave up although he was clearly attempting to remove the uterus again) is where is all the removed flesh (it's obviously not all in the photos) and how did he get out of the hotel unoticed when he must have been covered head to foot in blood. Did he have a change of clothes with him perhaps? Again everything points to premeditation and that it wasn't a first offense. And some say he wanted to get caught (a small percentage of serials actually do) because 3 murders in one day and making very little effort not to get nabbed can only lead to that conclusion.
Additionally, everything I've read states that Donlan was indeed highly praised for the apprehension. In the 'Death Scenes' book Jack Huddleston mentions him specifically, which he does not do anywhere else in the scrapbook.

Til next.....
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BERNER ST BOY
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 6:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i love living in whitechapel ,where the notorius JTR went on killing spree's ,,,i actually live about 20 yards away from a killing site the site of liz stride(long liz)and ppl around here actually think that jtr did kill her}!!!
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BrendaNauman
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone know where I can get more information on Steven Otto Wilson. My mother works for his great-niece. This woman is also interested. Also, is there a picture of him posted anywhere that anyone knows of?
Brenda Nauman
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alex cortes
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 7:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is a book called 'Death Scenes' that has a picture of Wilson along with the victims. Its authors are Sean Tejaratchi and Catherine Dunn. You should be able to obtain it at any bookstore even if they have to order it for you.
I also have newspaper clippings that I looked up on microfilm at the L.A. public library.

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