| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2978
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 4:13 pm: | 
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Hopefully I'm not beggaring up Robert's plan here, but having found some new material on Lipski from the Scotland Yard archives we are hoping to post it here. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5405
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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AP, i've already posted two on General Discussion, photographs. Here's door lock and poison bottle.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2982
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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Sorry Robert
as ever I was drinking out of my own bottle of poison and messed everything up.
My thanks to you, dear chap. |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 479
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
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What's Robert's Plan? Robert, are you doing a Lipski-oriented project?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5409
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 3:53 am: |
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No, Tom. AP sent me a couple of photos without indicating which thread they were supposed to go on, and we both opened new threads simultaneously.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2983
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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The importance of these Lipski photographs is that they were taken by the police a year before the Whitechapel Murders took place, and do show that the police of the time were acutely aware of the importance and value of such photographic evidence.
In police terms the Lipski murder was a far less dramatic crime than the 1888 series of murders, so it does seem that there is a definite lack of such photographic evidence for the 1888 murders.
Particularly in the case of the murder indoors of Mary Kelly I would expect to see a large number of photographs of a similar nature to these Lipski photographs.
I believe a similar course would have been followed for all the victims of the Whitechapel Murderer, in that personal items, such as clothing and possessions, would have normally been photographed.
It is also entirely possible that photographs of individual wounds were taken at the time of the murders, to be used as illustrative material in the newly emerging science of forensic medicine.
I am absolutely convinced that there is a wealth of photographic evidence still out there… and I aim to find it. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1717
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 2:04 pm: |
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Hi AP
You wrote: "The importance of these Lipski photographs is that they were taken by the police a year before the Whitechapel Murders took place, and do show that the police of the time were acutely aware of the importance and value of such photographic evidence."
Now hold on a minute, AP. The murder of Miriam Angel by Israel Lipski took place in 1887 but that does not mean the photographs were taken then.
In fact, they almost certainly were not. Isn't the photograph of the lock and poison bottle as well as the one of Lipski's hat and the victim's nightdress on the other thread of artifacts from the Yard's black museum or evidence room not necessarily photographs taken to produce at Lipski's trial. At the trial they could have produced the actual things. They would not have needed photographs.
You have not told us where these photographs come from but I am assuming they are from some crime book of the twentieth century and that the photographs were probably taken closer to the time of publication of the book.
AP, please feel free to disabuse me of this assumption if I am incorrect, and thanks ahead of time for the clarification of exactly what we are seeing.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 486
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
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AP,
That's awesome, and I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say I hope you're successful! Incidentally, did you know that the Black Museum kept a collection of verse books and bibles carried by fallen women? I'd virtually guarantee Stride's is in that collection if it still exists!
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2985
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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Well Chris
I do agree with you that some of the material has its origins in the Black Museum, but as Robert Clack maintains that Lipski's house was demolished in 1888, then it duly follows that the photograph of the house was taken in 1887, the year of the murder.
Hopefully Robert will post a photograph from the 'Moat Murder' very soon which does show that some of the photographs are very much on the pulse. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5412
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
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And here it is.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Hi AP,
If by the "Moat Murder" you are referring to the "Moat Farm" Murder of 1899 (which did not get to trial until 1903), the photographs of the site would have been very necessary for the police and prosecution. For close to two months, the authorities had serious suspicions that Camille Holland was killed by Samuel Dougal shortly after their marriage, but they could not locate the body. At one point they searched the actual moat at the farm. It finally turned out that Dougal buried Camille in a ditch that was being drained at the time. I have seen a photo of Camille's filth incrusted remains (I think in THE MURDERER'S WHO'S WHO)wherein one can actually see features of her face that resemble some of her photos.
But I remind you - the "Moat Farm" Case took place a decade after the Whitechapel Murders.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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Hi AP,
The picture of the trench (which came from the "Moat Farm" Case, as I thought), did not pop up on my screen until after I wrote the message I did just send before.
Jeff |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2988
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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No worries, Jeff
The cops are just walking off with the body in this photograph... almost.
Just trying to show that some of these photos are very much of their time.
Give a dog a bone, eh?
Well, a Jack Russell in this case. |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 944
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Sorry to wee-wee on the parade, folks, but the Lipski images are in SPE's 'Executioner' from 2004.
I am also getting fairly convinced the photo of #16 isn't the original building, but one that stands on the site now and consequently post-dates 1887.
Don't trust history - it lies.
(That's copyright to me, OK? Anyone who wants to use that as a signature on their postings has to apply to me via MI5).
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2989
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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Nah, Philip,
Try 1904.
Trust your Met. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2726
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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Each of the houses photographed including the etched one from Ap look to me to be from the early seventeen hundreds-similar to those in Fournier Street and its surrounds built by the Huguenots in the early part of the 17th century
and still standing ,some with their original shutters or very clever replicas of their shutters.The flat facades,the multiple small panes of glass in windows,the rather narrow kilned brickwork suggest that same time period-Georgian.
Victorian houses were usually more ornate with the pointed eves/front porches etc but with plainer sash windows and slightly wider brick.At the latest I would put those houses at 1820.
Natalie |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 946
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 7:57 pm: |
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I don't get what you mean, AP.
1904 does post-date 1887.
Unless you mean the date of the book you got the images from? If so, I was merely saying they aren't new to us and can be easily found in the aforementioned work.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1718
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 3:03 am: |
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Hi Philip
I understand that Stewart Evans obtained the Lipski photographs for his book Executioner from H. L. Adam's The Police Encyclopaedia, London, The Blackfriars Publishing Company, 1912.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2990
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Phil & Chris
I do understand the finer points you are both making here, but I fear they are based on a misreading of my own motive here.
I am not claiming that these photographs aren’t already out there in the public domain, for as you both point out, they are indeed.
However it is my intention here to introduce these photographs to as wide an audience as is possible, and not just the select few who use these images for commercial gain.
The images are from:
‘The Story of Crime from the Cradle to the Grave’. London 1908.
‘Woman and Crime’. London 1912.
Both by HL Adam. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1721
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 5:24 am: |
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Hello AP
Of course I am not saying you are making the claim that the photographs are not available. I do appreciate your objective to introduce the images to those who may not be familiar with them. All I was doing was asking for references on where the photographs came from. I thank you now for providing that referencing.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 947
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 7:53 am: |
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Hi AP. Of course I am not saying that either - you know me better than that.
I DID misunderstand you though in thinking you were suggesting these hadn't been reproduced for some considerable time.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2992
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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No worries chaps.
I frequently misunderstand myself. |
AIP
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
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These photographs are not new and AP has misinterpreted their significance. |
