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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1224
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 2:59 pm: |       |
thought this might be of interest:
Nathan Shine
Nathan Shine was the father of Rachel Rae Shine and later to become the father-in-law of Jacob (Jack) Sassienie (1890 to 1961). In 1888 the time of the Ripper murders in Whitechapel, London, England, Nathan was 18 years old. By his own said statement we are told that Nathan Shine had witnessed an extraordinary event pertaining to the murders and he is one of the very few who may have possibly seen the killer, and yet there has never been any mention of him outside of his immediate family, regarding the Jack the Ripper murders.
According to Nathan Shine’s own oral statement first told to his parents and later his children, on 30th September 1888, Nathan Shine alleges that he left a working mans social club in Commercial Street, Whitechapel, London, England heading for his home. On turning into Berner Street from Commercial Street at approx 1.00am he saw a man holding a large narrow bladed knife standing over a woman who was lying on the ground, motionless.
The man stared straight into the face of Nathan and then turned and made a swift retreat from the scene. At the same time, Nathan ran away in the opposite direction and took another route to his home fearing for his life. It appears that Nathan disturbed the man seconds after the woman had been killed. Nathan Shine told of his experience to his parents but the episode was not mentioned again for many years, as for fears of reprisals, either from the murderer or from anti Semitic gangs.
Taken by word of mouth after the death of Nathan Shine from older members of the family, the woman Nathan had seen lying on the ground was probably ELIZABETH STRIDE and Nathan had described the man who was standing over the woman as: age, about 30; height, approx 5 ft 6 in; of pale complexion, dark hair; small dark brown moustache, full roundish face, broad shouldered; dressed in a dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak but could see hair on both sides of head, and holding a long thin bladed knife in his right hand. Of course when assessing Nathan’s description of the man, we must take into consideration that this event happened during the darkness of night and in Victorian era East End of London the streets were dimly lit by gas powered lighting, making any colours such as on clothing, hair very difficult to define, although Nathan Shine stated that he did see who he thought to be the murderer at close range.
Nathan shine’s story is very credible as the incident he described exactly matches in with the official police reports of the time. It followed that the body of ELIZABETH STRIDE was not mutilated. Mutilation was the usual practice of Jack the Ripper after a kill and it was concluded that Jack the Ripper was probably disturbed only moments after he stabbed Elizabeth Stride to death.
A possible string of events is as follows, some taken from Scotland Yard police records but most is unevidenced speculation:
The Ripper sees an East End of London resident, Israel Schwartz a Jewish man, immediately after he attacks, but doesn't yet kill, Stride.
Angered, and perhaps frightened of capture, he shouts an anti Semitic insult at Schwartz, walks away but keeps Israel Schwartz in view until Schwartz has walked off the scene. The killer then returns and kills Stride, but is again interrupted -- this time by Nathan Shine another Jew.
Frustrated with the Shine interruption (which prevents him from mutilating Stride), the Ripper searches for another victim, finding Catharine Eddowes in Mitre Square.
Fleeing quickly back into the heart of Whitechapel after killing Eddowes, the killer discards a piece of her bloody apron in Goulston Street.
Angered at having had to rush his killings because of the interruptions of two Jews, the Ripper writes the cryptic "Juwes" message on the wall above the apron.
The murderer’s misspelling of the word Jews may be evidence that Jack the Ripper was an uneducated man from a poor background, having difficulties with reading and writing, which was most common within the poorer communities in nineteenth century London, England.
In conclusion, Nathan Shine’s statement should be taken as literal. The Sassienie family and the Shine’s placed a great deal of credibility in it, and the fact that they did not disclose the incidence (and perhaps they were trying to keep Nathan Shine’s story from the press,) must show just how much the Shine`s, Sassienie`s and other Jewish people living in Whitechapel, London, England at those times had been living in fear of crime or creating any situation that could have materialised into a sort of mini pogrom against the Jews.
ELIZABETH STRIDE
Elizabeth Stride was born during the year 1843 in Sweden. She came to London, England in 1856 and worked as a prostitute in the Whitechapel district.
She was stabbed to death on 30th September 1888 in Dutsfield's Yard, Berner Street. Elizabeth Stride had her throat cut, but was not mutilated. The body was examined by Dr Blackwell and Dr Phillips.
Elizabeth Stride was buried in a pauper's (Poor) grave, no.15509 in East London Cemetery.
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 313
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 5:09 pm: | |
I like it, AP, because his description matches the Schwartz/Lawende description. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Very interesting AP.It doesnt surprise me that he didnt go to the police and I bet there were others who heard or saw something to do with these murders who also didnt go to the police out of fear.I would be interested to know your source for the story AP or is that a secret?
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1034
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Very interesting AP.It doesnt surprise me that he didnt go to the police and I bet there were others who heard or saw something to do with these murders who also didnt go to the police out of fear.I would be interested to know your source for the story AP or is that a secret?
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 5:28 pm: | |
thanks girls
sauce as follows:
Nathan shine`s story is very credible as the events he described tie in with the
police report ... Mutilation was the usual practice of Jack the Ripper after a ...
familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/ s/a/s/Anthony-Sassienie-/FILE/0017page.html - 20k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
link fails but drink several brandies and it works. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 6:07 pm: | |
nother link:
Morse Moss Motzney Moya Mozes Muster Myers Nathan Newton Niforos ... 4. Jacob (Jack) Sassienie
& Rachael Rae Shine (68 KB ... (Photos) Tree branch 4. Jack the Ripper, A ...
www.familytreemaker.com/users/s/a/s/Anthony-Sassienie- - 72k - Cached - Similar pages |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1308
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 9:14 pm: | |
1891
15 Tenter Street, Spitalfields
Head:
Rachel Shine - widow - aged 47 born Amsterdam - Cat's meat vendor
Children:
Barnet aged 27 - Cloth cutter
Joseph aged 22 - Riveter
Nathan aged 21 - Cats meat vendor
At 14 Tenter street lived Dorah Jacobs aged 53, widow, born Amsterdam. With her lived her three nephews, Jacob, Woolf and Leon Sassienne. Jacob is listed as 26 year old cabinet maker born in New York.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1309
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 9:24 pm: | |
In 1881 the family is listed at 15 Tenter Street but Nathan is not included
Head - Rachel Shine - widow aged 38 born Netherlands - cat's meat dealer
Mother - Caroline Mauphia aged 65 born Netherlands - Nurse - widow
Sons:
Barnett aged 17 - Tailor
Jacob aged 15 - Cigar Maker
Both born England
Only one Nathan Shine is listed - he is 12 years old, lives at 26 Dock Street but is of different parentage
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 205
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 12:18 am: | |
So this was a story passed down by word of mouth within a family for more than a century and then eventually posted onto a website?
"Oral tradition" + "passed through multiple sources" + "long passage of time" + "Internet" = hitting most of the indicators that the story is unreliable. But then it misses "used to support whacky theory" and "from proven fraudulent sources," so there's a slight chance there might be something more to it than other similar stories.
The best case scenario is that he might have actually witnessed something but the details are likely completely different from what actually happened, at worst it's just more grave-spitting.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 315
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 8:15 am: | |
Worst case scenario is that Nathan made it up to get attention. Since his description tallies with Schwartz/Lawende he would have had to had access to one of theirs (wasnt Schwartz published in the paper?).
If however it was embellished by succeeding generations, what is the likelihood that their embellishments would have tallied with Schwartz/Lawende?
Unless they were one of us, a Ripperologist, they probably would have got it wrong.
Since his description tallies with Schwartz/ Lawende, even if we wrongly accept him as being genuine, we have not been led far astray. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 9:48 am: | |
1901
23 Lilley Street, Spitalfields
Head
Nathan Shine aged 31 born Spitalfields - Cat's meat vendor
Wife:
Sarah Shine aged 31 born St. George's east
Children:
Rachel aged 9
Emanuel aged 7
Joseph aged 5
Rebecca aged 3
Katherine aged 1
Uncle:
Aaron Misophia aged 58 born Holland - Cigar maker
Marriage of Nathan Shine and Sarah Staal registered in Mile End September 1891 (1c 294)
In a photo at:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/t/e/Anthony-Steelsassienie/PHOTO/0205photo.html
Children are listed as Annie, Helen, Fay, Rachel, Jospeh and others.
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 207
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 10:29 am: | |
Hi Diana,
When stories and memories change over time, they often take on aspects of other similar stories. Schwartz's story, as it directly related to the crime in question, would be the logical influence, whether it happened early or late. It doesn't take much dedicated study to turn up the Schwartz account, so I don't think much in the way of research would be required.
The story itself sounds extremely suspicious to me. If this really happened and the killer ran off, you'd expect the woman's body to be where Stride was found. Stride was found in a very dark area off the street where no features should have been able to be seen (remember Diemschutz having to get fetch a light). If this is where Shine supposedly saw the man with the knife, the description of the killer is too detailed. If this happened in the street, as the story seems to want to have us believe, then the killer would have had to come back to drag Long Liz into the shadows, or someone else would have to do it for some reason.
Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 1:27 pm: | |
I was impressed with the story because it was unknown, and just sitting there for years with nobody trying to make any mileage or loot with it.
So often we see the other side of this, where the story is taken up and turned into a bloody best seller - 'MY GRANDAD SAW JACK KILL!!! etc. etc. - and then attracts its supporters and detractors.
No Dan, this is a 'virgin', and you should give her some respect... though what you say is quite right.
One must always consider also that the stories that we base our present knowledge of the crime on could be similarly tainted by time and knowledge after the events.
Caution is wise.
But I do like this simply because it has not been forced on us but gently found by searching long and hard.
I believe it to be a right little diamond. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 3:42 pm: | |
From a press report in connection with Jack the Ripper printed in 1888 and available on this site:
'An order for the committal of Mr. Shine, who, it was stated, was employed at the Adelphi at a salary of £14 a week, was made at Westminster to-day.'
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 3:57 pm: | |
link follows:
... on the tickets, and also to learn if Stride was ever ... An order for the committal of
Mr. Shine, who, it was ... Dissertations: Rediscovering Austin's Jack the Ripper. ...
casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881002.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages
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Simon John Owen
Police Constable
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 2:24 pm: | |
A very interesting story , it has the ring of truth about it in several ways :
1) It seems that Shine saw the killer just before he was about to mutilate Stride in the street , presumably Jack didn't want to cut up her body in Dutfield's yard due to the festivities going on in the working man's club. This incident ( and the Schwartz one ) changed the killer's mind and he moved Stride into the yard in order to kill her.
2) Shine's description fits with the descriptions given by Packer and Schwartz , and is in line with descriptions given by other witnesses.
3) My own personal opinion - I believe that the Stephen White story from the Peoples Gazette is based on truth : we now have the Shine story which confirms there was more going on in Berner Street than we have previously assumed : this enhances the possibility that the White story is based on events that did happen.
PS : I'm back ! I have now got myself an account !
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