| Author |
Message |
    
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2909
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 9:26 pm: |       |
Several readers have suggested over the years that we set up a "Jack the Ripper Book Club" - a reading group that decides to tackle a new book every 1 or 2 months that has something to do with the case. Perhaps a new Ripper book (or an old one), or something on the East End, Victorian Crime, Royalty, etc... maybe even take in a Ripper flick once in a while.
The "club" would have its own section on the message boards to discuss the book of the month, and might even have a monthly chat session to discuss it live. We could even set up a polling area where members can vote on which book to read next.
Any interest? If so let's hear your ideas/comments/concerns here, and maybe we'll start one up in early 2004!
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 861
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 9:42 pm: | |
A very interesting idea, Stephen.
Such exists for example in connection with the crime novelist John Dickson Carr, and they always seem to lead to fruitful in-depth discussions about the books in question and analyses of what the authors are trying to say. And I don't see why that wouldn't be the case also in connection with Jack the Ripper, where the selection and production of literature is vast and varied.
I think it's a tempting and intriguing idea. I also like the voting suggestion.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 164
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 1:26 am: | |
I'm all for it, although my finances prevent me from acquiring all the books that I'd like to, so I'm not sure I could keep up. Still, I think it's a great idea, and could prompt some really interesting discussion. Perhaps there could even be another chat night devoted just to the book of the month? |
Brad McGinnis
Detective Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 75
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 7:25 am: | |
Have you been watching Oprah Spry? |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 173
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 11:15 am: | |
i think its a good idea. i love a read and maybe it will get me reading some of the books i have got but noit yet read. i would suggest we should statrt with more recently publidshed books so they are obtainable at least via librarys if not in the book shops.
i'm not sure how the chat works but if you explain ti to me i will be sure to pick it up!!!!
perhaps it would also be useful to habe an email contact for if people cannot aquire the books and would like to join in, so others they could easily get could be added for the month.
i never watch oprah as its not on uk terestial tv at present so brad that one washed over me.
jennifer |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 174
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 11:17 am: | |
psif help is needed i nominate myself if i can provide anything!
jennifer |
Natalie Severn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Severn
Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Sounds a great idea.If we combined it with collective easily accessed reference points such as those on the maps Chris has just produced it might also speed up the detective work!
Best Natalie. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 869
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 8:27 pm: | |
I can second to Erin's comment about the financial restrictions regarding requiring books -- at least in my case. The Ripper-related books can't be found in the libraries here in Sweden, unfortunately. That is the only problem with the idea that I can see at the moment on my account.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Holger Haase
Sergeant
Username: Holger
Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
I really think this is an absolutely fab idea that I would whole-heartedly support. It shouldn't just cover Ripper non fiction books, but also novels as well as films. For those worrying about the financial aspect we could of course start with Garry Wroe's book that is freely available as an E-book on this very site. It would give me the final push to read it. There are also a plethora of other books around that are still freely (and relatively cheaply) available to leave the hard to get antiquarian books for the year 2010 when we've covered the rest. :-)
Holger |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 878
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
The idea is fabulous, no question about that. Go for it, Stephen.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 221
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 2:22 pm: | |
Hi everyone
I was just wondering, what happened to this idea? Is anyone else still interested or is it just me?
I thought it was good idea!
Jennifer D. Pegg
|
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 93
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
I think it's a fantastic idea, one which I have been trying to push (unsuccessfully) on my friends for a number of years.
Count me in.
Would it be just new books, or also older ones? I, for example, would much rather re-read The Complete Jack the Ripper again rather than have to read Pat Cornwall's birdcage liner . . . |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 2:56 pm: | |
Hi
At least one other person is still interested.
Is there any chance of starting one up in Feb. so we could discuss one in March (ie giving us Feb. to read it).
If Kris wants to start with Complete JTR that's fine with me
Just expressing my continued interest
P.S.You never know if a few of us got one started maybe the rest would follow!
Jennifer D. Pegg
|
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 4:50 pm: | |
Yes, I think so too . . . what if we were to begin with the e-book that is on the site of Gary Wroe's? That way it would cost nothing for the first book and we could see how it goes, see how many are interested, and so on?
How does that sound? |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 223
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 9:47 am: | |
WHAT DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK!!!!!!
Hi
that sound good. I've no idea what the ebook is however.
perhaps you can give the site address so we can all statrt for a look. but really we need to know what stephen thinks
Jennifer D. Pegg
|
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2947
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 9:54 am: | |
Garry Wroe's book can be found at:
http://casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/garrywroe_full.html
I think that would be an excellent starting book. Shall we say everyone who is interested in participating in the club should have the book completely read by March 1st?
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper |
Kris Law
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 103
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
I think that sounds more than reasonable. It's free, so there's no reason people shouldn't be able to participate if they want to.
Have you read it already Stephen?
Signed,
Catch Me When You Can
Mishter Lusk
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 224
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 2:12 pm: | |
Hi
Great. I will now try to download it and read it by 1st of March.
I look forward to it.
Hope to see a few people on the boards to discuss it nearer the 1st of March!
Jennifer D. Pegg
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 6:00 pm: | |
Goodie goodie.
Looks like a good item to read on my marathon bus ride to London. Great idea.
See you in a nice discussion on March 1, then.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 207
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 5:06 pm: | |
So, I guess I'm not the only one who completely forgot about this? |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 951
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 3:12 am: | |
I've only just discovered this thread, but I shall certainly be reading this volume and commenting on it in due course.
A splendid idea! |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 953
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 9:49 am: | |
Jack the Ripper
Person or Persons Unknown
By Garry Wroe
A review…
I don’t believe I have ever read a better introduction to the East-End of London during the LVP than this one. It is a riveting piece of writing that gallops you along through the sprawling decay and moral issue of those dirty old desperate days. Garry Wroe has found his instrument here - writing about such things - and his technique, style and presentation are sharp and absolutely superb.
But - there is always a ’but’ - I should have known when I saw those two names mentioned with honours in the author’s notes that somewhere along the ride the horse was going to stumble and I was going to be thrown from the saddle and end up in a hedge.
And I wasn’t even at a Canter when that Wilson chap jumped out of a bush and startled my horse.
I would offer some sincere advice to Garry Wroe: Forget that you ever heard of Canter, Wilson, the FBI, Ressler and VICAP and rewrite the book without their prejudice, prejudgement and plain old nonsense. You are a damn talented writer and if you slung out all the chapters concerning profiling and all that other black magic nonsense, and then expounded your historical perspective and background to the LVP - and the Whitechapel Murders - you would have an undoubted best-seller on your hands. As it is you have sacrificed your obvious talent on the altars of jingoism just to get into bed with some big names.
I’ll tell you why.
When describing Martha Tabram’s killer, Wroe uses the term ‘full-blown sex killer’ - a term that is not only annoying, it is still unproven - and goes on to say that the killer was: ‘A sadistic deviant who derived untold sexual delight by penetrating human flesh with his knife.’
The author has not just made that up, because Wilson and Ressler have been blathering that out for over quarter of a century now, but fact of the matter is that such statements are nowt but idle fantasy on the part of men who really do not know what they are talking about. Nobody knows what ‘delight’ Martha Tabram’s killer got because nobody ever met the chap and asked him. Such statements are pure fairy-tale and do nothing but hinder and elude the legitimate motivations behind such crimes.
The author’s rambling thoughts on profiling and sexual crime are repetitious cant that one could find in any publication by Wilson or Ressler, lurid stuff about fantasy feeding crime then the crimes stimulating the fantasy and the fantasy feeding the crimes and etc. and etc… big pools of dark Freudian spit in which we slip.
‘Certainly it is not unknown for a serialist (sp) to blame a victim for inciting an attack,’ says Garry Wroe.
Quite right, but it is also not unknown for extremely famous authors like Wilson to blame the female victims for the attacks upon them by males, because they accepted lifts off strangers or wore mini-skirts.
Sort of neat that.
An FBI maxim is highlighted for us:
‘Sexual assault services nonsexual needs.’
What!?
Please explain.
The killer Shawcross is described as ‘an Alpha male’, when killers of this type are in fact the direct opposite and always subservient in other male company.
Peter Sutcliffe magically becomes an ‘organized’ killer when truth of matter is that daft old Peter couldn’t tie his shoe laces or fry an egg.
He has Ressler solving the case of Richard Chase when it was Richard Chase who solved his own case by speaking to a female witness who subsequently phoned the police, leading to Chase’s arrest. The police caught Chase while Ressler mumbled incantations into a phone.
The prejudice and preconception that the author brought to the later chapters of his otherwise excellent book are summed up in the most sweeping Wilsonite statement in the entire volume:
‘In many respects Jack the Ripper remains the archetypal sadosexual (sp) serial killer.’
The author tells us that Jack exercised ‘tremendous control over his victims.’
Well of course he did. They were dead.
I fell asleep in the Hutchinson chapter.
Sorry.
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 245
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 9:54 am: | |
hi
I hadn't forgotten but I will have to reread. I thought it was enjoyable and as ripper books go ok.
I agree with much of what AP has said.
cheers for now
Jennifer D. Pegg
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 11:52 am: | |
Wow, AP.
I must admit I had totally forgot about the book club, but now I really have to read Wroes publication. I'll be back.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Belinda Pearce
Sergeant
Username: Belinda
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 11:34 pm: | |
Count me in I've just goten Paul Beggs book |
Chris Michetti
Detective Sergeant
Username: Pl4tinum
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 11:48 pm: | |
Me too, and Cornwell's... I have to read both, as soon as I finish the last 50-odd pages of Sugden's book 
Chris 
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 246
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 5:38 am: | |
Perhaps we should arrange two things to read for next time one that many have already read as a back up?!
Jennifer D. Pegg
|
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 672
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 4:49 pm: | |
Hi, Stephen
I have just discovered this thread. I think a book club would be a great step forward for the site and lead to useful discussion. I have not read Garry Wroe's book so I will look forward to doing so and catching up on the discussion. Bravo. 
Might I suggest that the new books by Paul Begg and the newly revised Rumbelow should all be on the list as "to do" in the book club? 
All the best
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
Jack the Ripper...
Person or Persons Unknown
By Garry Wroe
I think AP have touched upon the most relevant points about the book already, although I don't necessarily find the underlying sexual basis for the murders as such a problem as he does.
However, Wroe's book suffers from too strong profiling and psychological influences, and over-all there is an obsession of the term sexual sadism that echoes too much of Colin Wilson for my taste.
I agree on that the East End introduction and the account of the murders are passages very well written indeed. Maybe it suffers a bit from too long and too many superfluous quotes that just makes the reading tiresome -- it is usually not necessary to enclose a larger number of long quotes than what's needed to prove a point -- Wroe seem to think otherwise.
Regarding the Whitechapel murders and the canonical victims, I think Wroe in general has done a good job, and especially I find his analysis of Stride's murder (one of the hardest mysteries to crack) to be a convincing one. At least I think it's well told and his arguments are sometimes well based.
Then the problems begin.
Firstly, Wroe -- like may other authors -- seem to regard certain details in the case as true facts. He without questioning reckons Mary Jane Kelly as a Ripper victim, without ever discussing other alternatives, and he also seem completely certain of that The Lusk letter is genuine, as if it was a stated fact. That won't do. This also becomes a problem to a greater extent, since Wroe is basing some of his later conclusions on those "facts".
As with most Ripper books on the market, the foundation is really starting to tremble a bit when the author decides to indulge in a suspect hunt of his own.
The real problem in Wroe's case is that he is basing his main arguments and deductions on psychological profiling. The parts of the book describing serial killers and the developments of psychological profiling earns their place as introductions and summaries on the subject, but Wroe does a fatal mistake, when he's basing his case upon them.
His own profile on Jack the Ripper is somewhat questionable; on the other hand Wroe leans upon profiling as its ability to offer standard generalizations that works as a manual, while his attempts on the other hand strongly contradicts other JtR profiles, like those done by FBI, on several points, and he also on some accounts unfortunately contradicts himself.
What I find most disturbing, is his use of profiling as an argument for his specific choice of suspect -- Hutchinson. Not only is profiling quite problematic to use on such old cases like that of Jack the Ripper, but it is in my view a complete intellectual suicide to use such an approach when dealing with an individual we know practically nothing about. We don't know anything about Hutchinson's childhood, his background, his medical history or his character. In short, there are really no facts whatsoever that corroborates Wroe's psychological analysis on Hutchinson and the Ripper. And since he -- to make matters worse -- is basing his whole case on elements that can not be considered as proven facts, the grounds for his suspicions and deductions becomes rather thin.
As I myself have some experience in editing books and in my work have daily contact with publishing companies, I can only say that there are a lot of passages I would recommend him to change, tone down or erase completely. Especially those Wilson-inspired parts where Wroe is sinking too deep in the swamp of "sexual sado-killers" and psychological mish-mash. My red pen would have kept me quite busy on those occasions if I was the editor of that book.
That being said, in spite the objections mentioned above, it is a well written piece and Wroe has a language and writing style that is as rich as it is capturing, and much of his reasonings and analyses are both intelligent and sharp, although I think he makes a mistake when he takes some of his "facts" for granted, in order to make them fit his theories. But then of course, he is not alone in that regard.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 962
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
Excellent stuff Glenn
I really enjoyed reading through your review, and I guess we both had similar problems with certain grey areas of the book, which you have highlighted admirably, especially the Hutchinson section which I do admit was so tedious that I fell asleep, dreaming of a world where books could be written without a suspect in mind - though I am as guilty as the rest in that regard.
I felt the most positive aspect of this particular book was the author's grasp of the period he is writing about, as I said probably the best historical over-view I have ever read, and unlike you I did enjoy his long winded quotes and references as it allowed me to wallow in the mire of the LVP and the case.
But I believe you are right, he did go on too long.
If I had to rate the book out of 10, I would give it 8, just for the first few chapters where the author was the absolute master of his subject, and then the bloody pack took over.
Shame. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1353
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 2:10 pm: | |
Thank you, AP.
And I totally agree with your last sentence. It's a real shame that Wroe -- who seem to have a good language and a great feeling for this particular time period -- didn't continue along the same lines that he started, but instead fell into the same trap all too many have stumbled into already.
For me this is a hard piece to rate, since his publication lacks several parameters that I wish to include when I judge a book, like typography, choice of pictures etc. Here we only have a rough manuscript.
However, as you say, thanks to the good over-view of the case and the East End introduction I am prepared to give it a 7.
Thanks again.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on March 23, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
