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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 214
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 5:16 am: |       |
G'day Wolf,
22 was not too young to committ attrocious murders, but was he too young in this particular case? He was old enough to hate his mother, which I agree had to be part of the Ripper's makeup, but I don't think 22 was old enough to have the confidence that the Ripper needed to carry out his business with 'ruthless speed and efficiency', then make a quick well thought out escape, leaving no traces of his ever being there except the victims. Then of course he needed the know-how to ellude patrolling policemen. I'll have to look up this 'Richard Chase' guy!
Do you think that Thomas Cutbush could have been responsible for the other cases of stabbing and 'jobbing' the girls near Lambeth Infirmary?
It says in 'The Ultimate Companion' that after Cutbush was arrested: 'A few weeks before this, several cases of stabbing or 'jobbing' girls behind had occured in the vicinity.' Should it say: 'stabbing or jobbing girls behindS'?
If Cutbush 'frequently came home with his clothes covered with mud', do you think that he rolled around in the dirt, trying to cover drops of blood? When his mum washed his clothes, the soil would have washed away leaving a tell-tale blood stain. Then he would have had to buy new clothes to travel back to Whitechapel, and gain the trust of 'Unfortunate' women.
LEANNE |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
Leanne
As I've said before Richard Chase wandered the streets of Sacramento in a bright orange jacket with bloodstains all over him and a plastic hold all full of body parts and nobody questioned him or stopped him, in fact he was able to get all the way back to his apartment and then go out again and kill some more, even though the police of the city were actively searching for him. He wasn't clever, he wasn't fast and he certainly wasn't trying to ellude anyone. Just a chrome ball bouncing about in a pinball wizard.
But he did it, and if he could do it in this century then I see no reason why a stupid, silly Jack could not do it in the last century.
Sorry I know I got my centuries wrong here but I can't cope with living in this century so have remained in the last.
The situation you raise with the similar cases of 'jobbing' are confusing to say the least, as these crimes were attributed to a young chap called Colicitt or Colicott and he appeared in court but was let off by the judge with - I think - a £200 bond for his future good behaviour.
Thomas committed exactly the same crime and was sentenced to life imprisonment for that is what 'Her Majesty's Pleasure' means, to be sectioned for life.
Now that seems a tad unfair to me.
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 217
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 10:45 pm: | |
G'day Wolf,
I've just read what 'The Crime Library' says about Richard Chase - What a bloody maniac...literally!
He grew up in an unhappy household, started by mutilating animals, and robbed homes before butchering one occupant. There's three points that would give him a rating on Dianas Ripper suspect list, but unfortunately he's from the wrong century!
It says in 'The Ultimate Companion', that: 'a man named Colicott was arrested but subsequently discharged owing to faulty identification.' and that: 'Cutbush was no doubt influenced by a wild desire of morbid imitation.' Could his behaviour in Whitechapel in 1888, have been another 'wild desire of morbid imitation', that police wanted to keep quiet and dismiss as soon as possible?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 218
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 2:22 am: | |
CHAPTER 9 - THE UNWRITTEN RULE OF THE SERVICE
You were right, Wolf, when you wrote: 'If the press could have got hold of a connection between the Metropolitan Police Force and the murders - no matter how small - all hell would have broken loose...' Many suspects were arrested and then let go. If the nephew of an Executive Superintendant was suspected, that would have been a picnic for the press, who would have invented stories about the police's apparent slackness. I don't think he was ever a serious suspect and this doesn't prove he was the Whitechapel murderer. He may have been, however, Monro's "hot Potato".
The arrest of this "Hot Potato" in 1891 may have contributed to Inspector William Races career downgrade, but that still doesn't make Thomas Cutbush the one and only 'Jack the Ripper'!
LEANNE |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 102
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 6:21 am: | |
Hi AP Wolf, Leanne,
AP posted: "Richard Chase wandered the streets of Sacramento in a bright orange jacket with bloodstains all over him and a plastic hold all full of body parts and nobody questioned him or stopped him"
Aaahhh Sacramento, let me count the ways I love thee. There's nowhere more beautiful than The Garden Highway, by the river.
But honestly- I can quite imagine that Chase was able to walk around suburban Sac in such a state, and nobody would notice.
It's mainly apartment complexes, trailer parks, and superstores like Albertsons, Longs drugs, and malls. These areas are separated by great expanses of road and grass. People hang out at the malls, and the apartment complexes- but nobody walks.
So if Chase was walking, it's no wonder that nobody stopped him. Everybody else was speeding by in their cars, on the way to the mall.
Whitechapel, by comparison, was densely populated, and on high alert for a killer. If Cutbush had walked around bloodied like Chase, I think he would have attracted attention.
But I do agree with you that there is something intensely dodgy about the discrepancy in sentencing between Colicott, and Cutbush.
I'm not ready to say that Cutbush was the Ripper (for some of the reasons I've outlined in my previous posts). But you're right, something's off about this, and your book makes him a very viable suspect. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 127
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 1:26 pm: | |
Leanne
Yes, you are quite right, Richard Chase was one hell of a disturbed young man, and regardless of other opinion I still find this young man - his history and upbringing - the closest match yet to the identity type of Jack the Ripper.
Hence my interest in Thomas Cutbush who shares at least ten important factors exactly the same as the ones that helped to formulate and fuel Chase's madness.
I still make no claim that Thomas was Jack.
But the coincidences in the two cases are most alarming to say the least.
Colicott or Colicitt as his name is reported in the newspaper accounts is a difficult one.
I have read the newspaper report of his trial and I hope that the kind gentleman who originally sent me it will be kind enough to place it on file here.
I am quite frankly baffled by Macnaghten's claims that Cutbush or Colicitt were inspired by some kind of morbid imitation... perhaps these two obviously disturbed young men knew each other?
I think it would prove most useful if one of the many contributers on this site who are highly skilled in internet research should attempt to track down a little bit more information on this Colicott/Colicitt, other court appearances, eventual demise, address, family etc.
This could prove highly interesting.
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AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 128
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 1:32 pm: | |
Leanne
The fact that Thomas was related to a very senior police official with a direct connection to the case certainly played a role when he was quickly sentenced to oblivion at Broadmoor.
Just the fact that Thomas could have been seen as Jack by the press was enough for Macnaghten to attempt to use smoke and mirrors to lead them and his superiors off on a merry chase leading exactly nowhere.
Macnaghten's memo is the key here. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 129
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 1:47 pm: | |
Marie
as ever good and valid points.
And you are probably right about Sacramento and Whitechapel, however perhaps you are ignoring the 'human' factor in something like this.
For what do we modern apes do when someones acts bizzarely or strangely on the street?
We quickly look away and pretend we haven't seen them, when faced by a babbling maniac waving a knife or gun we lower our eyes immediately to avoid that essential eye contact that could very well signal our end.
Perhaps, and just perhaps, there is only one small segment of humanity that would spy such a shambling, rambling figure coming towards them and think to themselves 'Ah, now here is a quick four pence', and that would be the 'unfortunates', especially when the wreck ambling towards them was a young inexperienced man with obvious sanity problems but a well salaried uncle in his pocket?
Think about it.
I don't think anyone would have seen Thomas if he didn't want them to, remember he flew over gardens and yards, and in and out of houses as if he was a man possessed, and he was.
Thank you for your positive comments and yes the sentencing policy on both Cutbush and Colicott is profoundly disturbing.
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 219
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 5:46 am: | |
CHAPTER 10 - TELLING TALES OUT OF SCHOOL
Wolf, do I understand this right?:
* Francis Coles was murdered on 13 February 1891.
* Thomas Cutbush was confined in Lambeth Infirmary on 5 March 1891, that's 3 weeks after Frances was killed.
At her inquest: the police objected to Mr Albert Bachert being allowed to sit on the jury, because he was once a member of 'The Whitechapel Vigilace Committee', so he was unlikely to be satisfied that this wasn't another 'Ripper' murder.
Are you saying that the police wanted to 'cut the line' linking her murder to those of 'Jack the Ripper', which happened 3 years earlier?
Interesting!
The fact that the Coroner at Catharine Eddowes's inquest said: "unless the jury wish it, I have special reason for not giving details as to the appearance of this man", cutting off Joseph Lawende's testimony, I thought was simply to prevent money-hungry people like Mathew Packer from inventing stories, using details printed in the newspapers.
That's why I think it is possible that Israel Schwartz gave his testimony at the Stride inquest, in private!
LEANNE |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 107
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 6:28 am: | |
Hi AP, Leanne,
AP, you wrote: "We quickly look away and pretend we haven't seen them, when faced by a babbling maniac waving a knife or gun we lower our eyes immediately to avoid that essential eye contact that could very well signal our end."
Yes, that's certainly true. But I think that had many people seen a man in this state, they would have avoided him them, but may have reported it later.
I forget where I read that a wild-eyed man, who had blood on his cuffs, had ordered a drink in a pub? I think the landlady reported it. I tend to believe that one.
There were also some reports of dodgy men with black bags, scaring young girls. I tend to discount many of those. But it shows that people were reporting stuff.
I agree that Thomas may have known the area well enough to hop fences and avoid being seen, but I'm not really down with the superhuman strength or agility idea.
You also wrote: "think to themselves 'Ah, now here is a quick four pence', and that would be the 'unfortunates', especially when the wreck ambling towards them was a young inexperienced man with obvious sanity problems but a well salaried uncle in his pocket?"
OK, fair enough- but wouldn't this imply that they had some kind of trust in him? They may have thought he was nuts, but not dangerous.
If they thought he was dangerous, I don't think they would have approached him. They may have been desperate, but I don't think they were suicidal.
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AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 3:48 pm: | |
Leanne
It may not have been my original point - of which you quote - but my present point is 'why was Thomas Cutbush confined to a lunatic asylum before he stabbed the two women?'
And that goes back to my original point.
Something must have happened in that time period for Thomas to be suddenly confined to Lambeth Infirmary.
Now what was it?
I used the case of Coles as an illustration of 'maybe'.
I think it eminently more likely that Thomas was confined to Lambeth Infirmary upon his return from the Police Seaside Home at Brighton and this of course was when good old uncle Charles was forced into early retirement.
Am I getting there? |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 136
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
Marie
good and valid points.
However I must redress you in reality.
Prostitutes are not, and have never been, considered as credible witnessess by the British Police Force, their evidence and statements are commonly discounted by the officers interviewing them, hence Peter Sutcliffe was able to murder so many of them, even though he had been reported to investigating officers by prostitutes who had been abused and almost killed by Sutcliffe.
I have said it before, the police carry with them an institutionalized bias against such sectors of our community and this does affect their detection skills... badly.
This must be taken into account.
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Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 110
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
AP:
Very well, m'dear. Consider me redressed in reality.
 |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 220
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 2:21 am: | |
CHAPTER 11 - RELATIVELY SIMPLE.
Wolf you wrote: 'everytime we get a momentary glimpse into the life of this stange young man a heavy curtain falls down and blocks everything out.' but who records the deeds of a young man that never owned a house and never married?
At the back of his book about Joseph Barnett, Bruce Paley wrote: 'Such people', [average people], 'leave few traces behind - no one records their deeds, saves their pay stubs, school records, letters or rent receipts; no one interviews their relatives...etc...'. This is where your favourite suspect, and mine fall apart in people's mind. People have said that Joseph Barnett led a normal, law abiding life after the murder of Kelly and never did anything wrong. How do we know? People expect the infamous 'Jack the Ripper' to have been recorded somewhere all his life.
What Marie said: 'I agree that Thomas may have known the area well enough to hop fences and avoid being seen, but I'm not really down with the Superhuman or agility idea', made me remember a story I wrote for 'Ripperoo' about the 'Spring Heeled Jack' craze that was gripping London at the time. Over a period of nearly 70 years, newspaper reports of a leaping, apparently superhuman madman who startled and attacked young women, appeared all over England. Popular children's literature at the time was filled with this boogeyman, who was based on reality. The character was based on attacks that occured in 1817 and 1837 by a perverts that could leap over fences, shrieking and groaning while making their escape - Hense the name: 'Spring Heeled Jack'. He or they never killed, but some Ripperologists believe this is where the 'Ripper' got his first name from.
What I'm suggesting here is that the young Thomas Cutbush could have received inspiration from the literature he was fed as a child.
To read more about 'Spring Heeled Jack':
http://theshadowlands.net/jack.htm
LEANNE |
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Sergeant
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 10:44 am: | |
You would think that the very, in the circumstances, appropriate name Cutbush would not be that common in London and indeed it isn't. And when you look for London Cutbush's born in Newington, you would think them extraordinarily thin on the ground and you would be right.
But in the 1901 census we have some anomalies.
A Thomas Cutbush for example living with his father, also Thomas and born just 7 years before Thomas the nut (as the Welsh might call him) born in Newington and a hop-porter. Our other Newington Cutbush is a Charles, of an age to be Thomas the Hops brother and working as a Hop-trampler or Sampler (someone has to do it after all.) And lastly we have in the wilds of Holborn a Charles Cutbush aged 36 and born in Kent who is a Police Inspector. Certainly not the late Charles who was dead by this time or his son Charles who would be too young. Can anyone explain the various relationahips, if any? |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 114
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 1:15 pm: | |
Hi Leanne,
Thanks for posting the link about 'Spring heeled Jack'. It's a story that's always fascinated me.
In fact, just a couple of weeks ago, I was doing some reading about it and found out that there have been sightings as recently as 1996. Whereas I tend to doubt the recent sightings, the early phenomenon is very strange, indeed.
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AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
Leanne
Good point.
However, we should be able to trace Thomas Cutbush through his life very soon I hope, for it will not be long before his death certificate and other details become available through the PRO. Thomas does leave footprints - and I'm sure there are a lot more out there - through the various lunatic asylums he attended, through the census results but most importantly through the police records of his uncle Charles which I am desperate to get my hands on. They do exist, so please someone find them.
Your Joe leaves no such footprints I'm afraid, which doesn't mean much more than he should have, if he was Jack the Ripper.
Yes, your spring heeled jack is an interesting part of British folklore and deserves fresh study in its relationship to the Jack crimes.
I agree with you and Marie that it is rather silly to imagine that Jack had supernatural powers, however it is often enough for the people to imagine that Jack has supernatural powers for him to have 'em.
If you see what I mean? |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 2:18 pm: | |
Peter
I'm not sure if I read your post correctly or not, but I have long been searching for a second police officer carrying the name of Charles Cutbush... as I was reliably informed earlier this year that such a police officer existed.
Now, have you found this second Charles Cutbush who was a police officer or not?
If so, you have my congratulations and thanks, but please tell me more.
|
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Sergeant
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Yes.
Do you want more? OK.
At what looks like 66 Great Queen Street, Holborn (St George Bloomsbury) lived in 1901:
Charles Cutbush, 36 Police Inspector born Harrietsham, Kent (near Ashford)
Wife Bessie Cutbush 39 born Callington, Cornwall (Home of Ginsters Pasties)
DaughterHilda May Cutbush, 3 born Bethnal Green.
email me for any further info you want. |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 141
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 5:12 pm: | |
Peter
Thank you.
I have done just that. |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 221
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 6:26 pm: | |
G'day Wolf, Marie, Peter, everyone,
Yes 'Spring Heeled Jack', does deserve more of a look. 'Letters From Hell' by Stewart P. Evans and Keith Skinner, first caused me to look closer at this. The book tells readers that he had 'vague real-life origins', so I searched my local library and the internet to find out what these real-life origins were.
On the internet I had difficulty because apparently there's a rock-group that named itself 'Spring Heeled Jack' too, so I had to sift through all the results of a search.
I found that 'Penny Dreadfuls', which were penny-part novels full of sensation and adventure for the amusement of working-class boys, appeared in 48 weekly parts during the Victorian era. The author of these turned him into a superhero.
Marie you say you doubt the recent sightings of 'Spring Heeled Jack', who became such a craze that he appeared in the U.S. as well as all over England. More recent sightings of the creature were obviously just perverts, but a popular theory identifies the origional menace as the then Marquis of Waterford, who was an eccentric Irish nobleman and a well known prankster.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:32 am: | |
My thoughts after reading:
CHAPTER 12 - THE THOMAS CUTBUSH YOU WOULDN'T LIKE TO MEET
Wolf wrote: 'Thomas Cutbush was insane and no stranger to either the knife or the immediate area of Jack the Ripper's crimes.' Wolf, what makes you imply here that he was no stranger to a knife in 1888? We know that he bought a knife at Hounsditch a week before he attacked two women in Kennington in 1891. Macnaghten believed that this knife was not the same as the Ripper's.
Wolf wrote: 'It appears that Cutbush's father died while he was very young.....leaving him in the dubious care of what sounds like his fairly demented aunt and mother.'
Isolation is considered the single most important aspect of a serial killer's psychological make up. My pet suspect, Joseph Barnett's father died of pleurisy when Joe was six years old. Then his mother Catherine just disappeared. She wasn't listed in the 1871 census, and the last record of her is as informant on her husband's death certificate in 1864. When Joseph was 6, Denis was 14, Daniel was 12, John was 3 and his sister Catherine was 10. Joseph developed a speech impediment, and there was no one to spoil him.
It is very likely that Thomas Cutbush was reading medical books by day, because there was no pornography available at the time. Then he scibbled obscene drawings from them, and you believe that he became obsessed with a desire to possess these 'forbidden parts'?
If, when he was able to find work, his fellow workmates found one obscene drawing of a naked woman with her intestines exposed, do you think this may have been inspired by newspaper reports he'd read, added to perhaps his hatred of his mother or aunt?
LEANNE |
AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 143
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 1:59 pm: | |
Leanne
There is more to this knife business than I am able to admit... at the moment, but I hope that situation may change very soon with the recent discovery of the second senior police officer called Charles Cutbush.
I was given some information - privately and confidentialy - that such a second Charles Cutbush did indeed exist, and also other information concerning the condition of Charles Cutbush's body at death.
We must await events I'm afraid.
You are of course quite right, a son raised without a father figure, is often fixated on the the mother oft in an unhealthy and obsessive manner, and when that mother is demented then it is a bubbling cauldron full of hate.
The speech impediment lends creadence to your suspect.
The 'pornographic' drawings of mutilated women were actually found by two detectives up Cutbush's chimney along with some heavily stained clothes which he had attempted to clean with turps.
As Richard Chase was also inspired to make such illustrations after reading about his crimes in the newspapers I see no reason why Thomas would not do the same thing. |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:20 pm: | |
Hi all,
Leanne, you wrote: "a popular theory identifies the origional menace as the then Marquis of Waterford, who was an eccentric Irish nobleman and a well known prankster"
I hadn't read that- cheers! I imagine he was quite pleased, he certainly made a legend for himself. I'm quite a skeptic when it comes to 'supernatural' phenomena of this sort, so I figured it was the work of hoaxers, and a populace willing to work themselves into a frenzy after reading the penny dreadfuls.
AP, (as you know- it'd take a lot to sway me from my Barnett), but I'm most interested to hear about this new evidence you describe.
Are you writing a new book? (forgive me if that's a dumb question!) |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 60
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi Marie
There was an article in "The Unexplained" a few years back about Spring Heeled Jack written interestingly by Paul Begg.
There were reports as early as 1817, but it wasn't until 1838 that he became abit more prominent. There were sporadic reports up until 1904 where he made an appearance in Everton, Liverpool.
Most of the early reports discribed a man breathing blue and white flames into womens faces, and being able to leap up to 25 feet in the air. There were rumours he had springs attached to his shoes. The person Leanne mentioned was Henry de la Poer Beresford, Marquis of Waterford. And he was suspected of the 1838 incidents.
There is a book "The legend and bizarre crimes of Spring-Heeled-Jack" written by Peter Haining in 1977 and a film "The Curse of the Wraydons" in 1946 starring Tod Slaughter.
All the best
Rob |
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