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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 811
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 4:17 pm: | 
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How crass!!
No one learns anything from tolerance. Challenge and response are the great educators.
The hoi poloi will simply take every lowering of standard, everything that "makes things easy" for them and demand more.
Literacy levels in the UK were never higher than when people had to work and aspire to lift themselves up. Unasked for gifts are rarely appreciated - what people have to work to achieve they value.
I correct errors, so according to you, those posters should learm. is that not, therefore, good.
"Everyman" is a different concept from every man.
On the other hand, "A stranger's just a friend you do not know?"
Phil
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2917
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Hey Phil,
what you originally said that everyone's opinion is not valid, I probably do agree with in many ways.
Now for the but part of this!
"No one learns anything from tolerance. Challenge and response are the great educators."
No one learns anything from tolerance??? Tolerance is bad now?
Challenge and response are great educators. Well I don't know. Are they? I don't know that I agree that challenge is a great educator, sorry.
"The hoi poloi will simply take every lowering of standard, everything that "makes things easy" for them and demand more."
Excuse me? Who are these people you allude to, I take it you think there are some to be found on these boards..?
"Literacy levels in the UK were never higher than when people had to work and aspire to lift themselves up. Unasked for gifts are rarely appreciated - what people have to work to achieve they value. "
That is surely factually inaccurate?
That literacy levels were higher - say - in the 16th century or even the Victorians times, than today.
If there's one thing that grates on me more than anything it’s the idea that kids today have it easy. They don't.
"I correct errors, so according to you, those posters should learn. is that not, therefore, good."
learning is of course good.
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 724
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 7:33 pm: |
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Jenni,
Can't really answer your questions, but I can add a little information that by its essential dullness may damp some of the fires here.
The American historian Kenneth A. Lockridge in his literacy studies of colonial New England credits three areas of western civilization with "universal male literacy" (literacy levels above 90%) during the 18th century: New England, Scotland and Sweden. While lower than the "universal" standard, female literacy in all three places was correspondingly higher than other areas studied.
Lockridge attributes that situation to Protestantism, which "was perhaps the sole force which could rapidly increase literacy to high levels or bring the level of this skill to universality . . . [and] prevail upon the state church or the state itself to provide or compel systematic edication."
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4924
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 7:51 pm: |
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Don, how did Holland score?
Robert |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 725
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
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Robert,
It has been a while since I was active in the field (which really was colonial New England history and not literacy per se) so there may have been lots of new studies. The material I have at hand does not specifically mention Holland, which is the best I can do for you (and which is essentially nothing). Perhaps because they looked good in this regard (or, if you want to be cynical and suggest it was the other way round) the Swedes did a lot of studies in the field and results for other European countries may have been buried there that Lockridge used. I do know that England did less well and France less well yet than Scotland or Sweden in Europe.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4925
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 8:50 pm: |
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OK, Don, thanks. Glenn will be pricking up his ears.
Robert |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 818
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 2:31 am: |
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Well, I see I managed to divert the argument.
Jenni - heaven forfend that I should upset you.
I do not think that tolerance is a great educator. BUT that is not to say that I don't believe that tolerance is immensely important in other areas of life. I have not said anything different.
I don't have a high regard for people en masse, but that said, I will do my UTMOST to help any individual, whomever they may be.
Do I contradict myself - I am many, I contain multitudes. [Whitman I think.]
Someone said earlier that people learn best from their mistakes - isn't that challenge and response. Were not some of the most major scientific advances in history made in the few years of World War Two - as a response to a challenge?
But all this is irrelevant to Casebook. All that matters here is the quality of our reasoning and arguments. I stand or fall by those.
That is all,
Phil |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 366
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 3:17 am: |
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Dear Jennifer,
You post:
“That literacy levels were higher - say - in the 16th century or even the Victorians times, than today.”
Well you judge for yourself. In 1903 the illiteracy levels, judged by the standard of being able to read and write at the age of eleven, was 3%. Today I believe it’s nudging 15%.
We should never tolerate anything less than a persons best efforts. Ignorance is excusable – the desire to remain ignorant is not.
I’m afraid one of the reasons we are in such a mess today is that over the years we have tolerated that which is shoddy and slipshod and despised anyone who makes an effort to improve their lot.
Look how we treat people and companies in Britain who dare to run successful businesses. The pack immediately start howling for the destruction of those who actually dare to make a profit, the unions immediately demand that idle, shiftless workers be given more for doing less, and when these businessmen, like Dyson, say ‘Sod you I’m off abroad’ we shout and howl about taking jobs away from Britain.
Completely ignore the fact that these jobs wouldn’t be in existence without him, completely ignore the many people working for him who still have jobs here – just howl and yell.
I live in Wales, and it’s a popular myth that the Welsh keep a welcome in the hillside etc. Rubbish. As soon as anyone succeeds down here the Tafia immediately jump up and down howling for his or her destruction. You name me one Welshman who has succeeded in anything who has actually stayed around? Tom Jones may have sung about the Green Green Grass of Home but he sure swapped it for the Yellow Yellow beaches of California quick enough.
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Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 169
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 6:42 am: |
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Bob,
Isn't Cornwell one of those who have made good,and isn't she being pulled down by the mob.
Her ideas and methods may not be to everyone's liking,but shouldn't she also be given her chance to solve a puzzle that has eluded so many.
It is not that I object to people stating their mind,but sometimes the manner can be offensive.
Phil I have asked you twice to supply evidence that will link a person by name,to any of the killings.That would be advancement which seems to be a stated desire of yours.Untill such evidence is produced,you cannot state with any conviction,that you have made any progress.
Researchers are to be praised,but so must the efforts of those people back in 1888,who provided much of the content of that research,and we should at least give newcomers to the site,more than one post before becoming over critical.
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 7:13 am: |
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Bob,
I think you may have slightly misunderstood my point. But that said, the standard of being able to read and write at age 11.
I don't know how we judge this. I would point to SATs but well, people know what I think about them. But the point is how you measure these things. I think your statistics are way off.
The desire to remain ignorant? I don't know how many people have such a desire (not many). i would outline here all the ways in which i feel the education system in England AND Wales fails children everyday, but there is not space!
i don't despise people who attempt to improve their lot, call me weird (I'm sure i am!)
anyway, as my degree was in sociology i could go on all day but lets leave it there and get back to something we all agree on
Patricia Cornwell, what is she like hey?
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 915
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 8:02 am: |
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"Isn't Cornwell one of those who have made good,and isn't she being pulled down by the mob ?"
Dear Harry....yes and no.
I believe that regardless of her book and her refusal to confront Ripperologists in friendly discussion, she does the field a service by bringing people closer to the Case. Her refusal to allow herself to be confronted with matters important to her theory are what gets her the degree of animus that she has.
A brief example is this: Combined, Begg,Hinton,Evans,Sugden,Rumbelow,Phil Hutchinson and his tours,Steve Ryder and the Casebook site...Dan Norder and Rip Notes,etc...make or made less than Cornwell made on her first book.
However...how many of the subscriptions to magazines,purchases of The Facts or Letters From Hell or contributions to this site were a direct result of her book ? I'd wager a substantial amount....and a welcome amount.
Just like the hoopla over the Diary which basically created this site, Cornwell does good for "la causa".
I am currently eating my words because I thought she would drift back into writing her fiction books. I had no idea she would still be concerned with the matter and judged her incorrectly. She seemed like a one-off...and I was wrong.
Mr. Hinton...you think its bad there? Try an inner city High School on the East Coast here !!!!Granted,there has been a major effort [ and successful so far ] in elementary schools to fix what the liberal take-over in American schools wrought dating back to the mid-1960's.
I saw a recent proposal in the U.K. that allows kids to say the "f" word in front of teachers in class.
Those liberals never learn,do they? |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 821
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 8:14 am: |
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Harry:
Sorry, if you find my manner offensive. It wasn't deliberate. But I have limited time and argue hard. I'll try to do better.
Phil I have asked you twice to supply evidence that will link a person by name,to any of the killings.
Why ask a question to which you know the answer. With the exception of Kidney and Barnett to Stride and Kelly, I doubt it can be done. No doubt "diaryists" would say Maybrick to all.
But we don't even know for certain the number of victims.
What is more curious about you question, is that you must know, from my recent posts in various threads, that I have long outgrown the desire to put a name to the Ripper. If we can eventually find evidence, then that will be interesting. But the case now intrigues me for far wider reasons that that.
That would be advancement which seems to be a stated desire of yours.
I have set out fully - I think twice, in recent days, what I believe constitutes advancement in this case. It is NOT limited to names and suspects, but relates to the whole case - and our understanding of it in context. the people who are really advancing the case are those bringing together the facts in books like the A-Z or the Ultimate Source Book and Letters; and those like AP, Chris Scott and others, who delve into the minutiae of court records and census information to throw light into dark places.
If we ever do find new evidence or a "solution", I believe firmly that it will come from such archive sources.
Untill such evidence is produced,you cannot state with any conviction,that you have made any progress.
I find that a depressing and somewhat unsophisticated (if I might call it that) stand-point. As I have argued elsewhere, I think we have made huge progress in understanding the police investigation; the victims; the period context (crime etc) and of knowing more about suspects. I might be in the gutter, but at least I try to see the stars - where do your eyes rest?
Researchers are to be praised,but so must the efforts of those people back in 1888,who provided much of the content of that research...
Such as, and how is that relevant to this discussion? The same might be said for ALL historical research.
...and we should at least give newcomers to the site,more than one post before becoming over critical.
I find that a non-sequitur to the first half of the sentence.
For my part, I always give newcomers a chance - but I am not so condescending as to chose those who are worthy of debate/ or up to it; and those who aren't. How would i know?
I take the view that anyone who posts on a public site like this should be treated alike. If they post on this site they must realise that what they say will be discussed (or is likely tio be). I also take the view that all newcomers are up for the challenge - I don't decide on no information that they are too precious to stand the stress.
And if they are clearly relying on discredited "facts" and books overtaken by time - I believe that should be pointed out. Your approach, of saying nothing, simply means they stay misinformed and look foolish for longer.
Phil
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Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 171
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 5:42 am: |
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It is impossible to add to information that was available in 1888,unless one invents such,and that does seem to have been done in some cases.
Researchers do a fine job of retrieving that which appeared lost or forgotten,or collecting known information and publishing for the benefit of those unaware that that information exists.
It is just that I do not recollect you being among the body of people that has contributed something of importance,though you constantly strive to give that impression,by citing the names of good researchers as if you were one of them.
But then,I am not perceptive,am I?
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 835
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
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True - to the extent that only material that was created in 1888 can date from that time. So the sum is finite.
But we are unaware of much of the material from 1888 and other years - we could not explore the police files until a few decades ago. swanson's marginalia have been found. Littlechild's letter drawing our attention to Tumblety turned up.
All new to US.
We might find more - chaches of letters, material taken from files by policemen or officials - look how much of that has been returned.
All this, as it turns up, adds to our knowledge of the case, opens new avenues, claifies aspects and issues.
On the other issue you mention I'll say just this. I have never claimed what you state, Harry. I cannot help your perceptions (good or bad) but I have consistently expressed my regret that I have neither the time nor talent to be a researcher. as Chris Scott, AP and others will I think confirm, I have never ceased to express my admiration of the work they do. It have stated several times that I believe it is from that detailed, painstaking research that new leads and possibly a solution may emerge.
What do i bring to the table - nothing really, except around 40 years of interest, wide reading and deep thought. Sure I argue and debate hard. What's wrong with that? but try to claim to be what I have never been - I think not. That's in your head, Harry, not in mine.
Phil |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2922
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:15 pm: |
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Jenni
There are rather sadly,(or whichever way you look at it) some people who remain ignorant ,maybe because its been like that in the family for decades or maybe they dont have rhymne or reason to creep out of that state.Sad as this sounds I taught in an inner city school for 25 yrs and know this to be the case!
However..as to literacy levels....Hmmmmm ok theyre up a bit largely as he result of damned hard work by middle school teaching! BUT I hate to say it as Bob said earlier slipshod methods were and ARE still being employed and the ghastly 'Table of Results' is bringing out the worst in a lot of fine teachers...Results mean everything these days which as we know is relevant to the school and its appearance rather than to the pupils!!!
As to 1888 well those souls who went to school c/o of the 1860's Education Act (like hubby's great grandmother who left school at the age of 12 in 1888 who could read and write very well andwent to work in a shop !)....Were on the whole the lucky ones..or there again!!!!
The rise in literacy was a major factor in the development of the popular media... It is interesting that the early popular newspapers were cheap, and that the language was very simple,easily accesible to the lowest common denominater! and the fact that literacy had become more widespread is the only reason why '
You cannot sell a newspaper to the populace who cannot read em!!!!! Hence the Sun etc Lots of pictures!!!!
You can only have a popular press you have a popular literacy!!
The relationship between the 1860's Education Acts and the growth of the popular media is inextriciable!!! Far more people could read shall we say in plain language in 1888 than in 1858!
Maybe thats why Mary asked Joe to read the papers to her every day!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2923
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
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Teaching is a tough old job anywhere!!!! But!....Of course the telegraph at the time was still very good at murders and Cricket!!!! Whicj it is to this day!! Suz |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4933
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
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As with nursing, there are the naturals, and there are the ones who have to, as it were, force themselves to play the part.
Is that clear, Hanney?
Quelch |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2924
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:35 pm: |
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Sorry about the typos there but there we are! I' ve had my say now
Lol
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2925
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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Mr Quelch!!!!! Absolutely sir absolutely!!!! Gosh did that make any sense??? Must get to bed soon been party organising all day yesterday!
Sorry Sir!
Hanney Minor |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 838
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
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Mr Quelch was a d**n fine teacher - and don't you forget it or you'll be sent to The Remove!!
The inescapable fact is that in Victorian Britain opportunities began to be provided and the working classes grasped them. They saw a way for their children to better themselves and move upwards socially. It worked.
Over the decades people worked hard to send children to grammar schools, and then universities. Homes were filled with family encyclopaedias.
Then it all seemed to go wrong - largely, in retorpsct, it seems to me - with the introduction of the comprehensives.
Today, with education seen as a right, parents increasingly seem to assume that they need do nothing - that teachers and the state have a responsibility to educate and that's it. there is no back-up in the home.
I am told writing is suffering among younger children because they do not know how to hold knife and fork (at home - no family meals at table) and thus do not readily have the control to manipulate a pen. Youngsters spend more hours at home than a school, so the environment there is crucial.
Education is freely available, but all the kids do is compalin its boring and play truant in huge numbers.
Maybe take away the right to lifelong education, save money, and literacy would rise again.
Phil |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4934
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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My own ancestry is working-class/lower-middle, and yet I have various educational books, encyclopaedias etc which they've left me.
They no longer seem to do books for boys (um, and girls!) with chapter headings like "The Romance of the Pelton Wheel."
Self-improvement, at least in the early days, was a matter that concerned the whole political spectrum, e.g. Lancelot Hogben, who was quite leftish.
Robert |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 839
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 1:43 am: |
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A figure on the TV this morning - 70,000 school children play truant every day in the UK!! That's an indictment of something. the lost opportunity (not to mention the waste) is staggering!! |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 173
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 5:26 am: |
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Can you blame the children or the educational authorities for everything.A child leaves school and enters the workforce knowing how to use a pen,and the employer sits that child in front of a computor,and the only way that child can write is through a keyboard.Or you place a child on a supermarket checkout,and there is no need to add or subtract,a machine does it for them.
My grandson was pretty poor in general subjects at school,yet in his last year he was given a key to the school so he could set up the computors for the day's lessons.At seventeen he joined an I.T. company as a consultant and is doing well.
Forget the pen,the keyboard has taken over.
There is a new kind of education being taught,and education will fail if the old methods of education are allowed to dominate.
Go ask the manufacturers what should be taught,they will have a more correct solution than the beaurocrats. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 5:56 am: |
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Hi Phil,
I wonder who told you about the relationship between a knife and fork and a pen? It appears to me to be utter cobblers.
It depends on the priorities parents have in the home. My daughter rarely used a knife and fork in her early years, but she was healthy and didn't starve, and had her meals up at the table with us. She was writing legible poems and stories by the age of four.
In any case, it is bad form to hold a knife like a pen. 
How did this drift so far from Patty Cornwell?
Love,
Caz
X
(Message edited by caz on September 06, 2005) |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 846
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
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How did this drift so far from Patty Cornwell?
I think YOU had something to do with it, Caz!!!
Harry, without an ability to do mental arithmetic, at least, as cashier cannot tell even roughly whether the till is right. I have often pointed out an error based on my mental calculation, and suggested the cash register must be wrong - only to be met with blank incomprehension.
Working in an office, I expact my staff to be able to write with a pen - taking a phone message any other way is pretty difficult.
But actually, I do think the syllabi are wrong and that employers - the eventual customers of the system - should be involved in creating it.
In the Uk the old grammar school curriculum produced excellent imperial administrators and civil servants (lots of mayhs, precis, comprehension, Latin - as mental exercise; essay writing, history, geography. That needed replacing. nevertheless, today's national curriculum has little to commnd it whatsoever.
Phil |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 7:04 am: |
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Hi Phil,
Huh?
I've posted very little on this thread and I certainly didn't bring up cutlery and its contribution to literacy.
Would you like a knife, so you can eat your words when you've written them?
Love,
Caz
X |
Mike the Mauler
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Harry,
Isn't the refutation of highly improbable scenarios case advancement of a sort? Too many theories don't even have circumstantial evidence. Why can't these be refuted, and hopefully eliminated or at least put in a cupboard somewhere to ripen? It's so easy to come up with a theory about something and say "Prove me wrong". I look at the JFK assassination and the Lindbergh kidnapping, even the Lizzie Borden case and see so many books with so many theories that it boggles the mind. The M.O. is always the same: "Here's what I think. Prove me wrong." Often it can't be done. It's nearly impossible to prove someone's fantasy is untrue, but that doesn't lend any credence to a theory. In the states there is a big argument on Natural Selection vs. Intelligent design. Intelligent design has no scientific basis, yet it is difficult to refute, especially when so many hapless inidviduals belief in it through faith rather than thought. A theory should be: "Here is my evidence, including photographs, sworn statements, eyewitness reports. Now where do I err?" A theory should be created from evidence not evidence created from theory, yet that is what seems to happen more often than not.
Discourse isn't always enjoyable, but it's necessary to get at the heart of things. The attempt to eliminate unprovable theories is a good thing in my estimation. But, what do I know.
Cheers,
Mike |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 10:54 pm: |
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Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.
c.d. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 858
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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As Winston once remarked:
I have often had to eat my words, but on the whole i found them a very satisfying diet.
My response was to your earlier Post. perhaps you are getting forgetful.
P |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 178
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 6:42 am: |
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Mike,
When evidence is limited,and the next link in the chain unknown,it is sometimes neccessary to theorize what that next link might be.Then having come to a decision what that link might be,the obvious step is to search for information that proves the theory.If unsuccessful start again in another direction,and keep doing this till common sense dictates that another link is unlikely to be found,or you complete the chain.
In the Ripper case,there is obviously a situation where the known evidence or information fails to supply an answer,therefor it is neccessary to theorize where such information might lie.If the next link doesn't complete the chain,still continue searching.
At the moment,it appears that most of the links in the Ripper case are broken ones.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2939
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
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Seems safer here now Just posting a recent pic of Jack seen in Hanbury Street last week!!
Look out!!!! (as the sign says!)
Suz x |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2940
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
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Well!!!!
revenge may yet be ours eh!!!!???
Suzi x |
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