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Scott Nelson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | 
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City Police Inspector Robert Sager, who recalled watching a suspect in Butchers' Row, Aldgate, appears in the 1891 census thus:
13 Rose Alley, Bishopsgate, City of London
Robert Sager head M 38, Inspector Police City born London Shoreditch
Clara wife M 38, born: London Shoreditch
Robert H. son 10, scholar born: London City
Sarah K. daughter 8, scholar born: London, Shoreeditch
Cecil W. son 6, scholar born: London, Bishopsgate
It is interesting that quite a number of other policemen lived in Rose Alley.
Ref: RG12/235/f160/p41
Also, amazingly, there was a cluster of city policemen living in Church Row, off of Aldgate High Street (next to the St. Botolph Church) in the 1891 census.
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AP Wolf
Police Constable
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 1:14 pm: |
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Greetings Scott,
any names for the 'cluster of city policemen living in Church Row, off Aldgate High Street'?
If so, I would be very interested in those names.
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Scott Nelson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 4:55 pm: |
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Hello AP,
There were actually two "Rows" or narrow, short alleys of several dwellings and shops on either side of the Aldgate Railway Station on AHS. On the west, between the St. Botolph Church and the Three Nuns Hotel was "Church Row". This was actually between nos. 7 and 9, AHS and led back (north) towards an old school premise and a wider part of Church Row that flanked the old grave yard. At no. 14 lived PC Edward Thugeon (?), aged 30 and his family. On the east side of the Railway Station was the "Crown Place", which entered AHS between nos. 20 and 23. At no. 1 lived PC William Custer, 43. PC William Jones, 29, lived at no. 6. There were only 8 dwellings shown in Crown Place on the Goad 1887 plan. It appears that large warehouse(s) may have been modified into two short rows of houses sometime previous to the publication of the Insurance Map.
Sorry, no PC John Dixon in the 1891 census in this immediate area.
Of course, if you want to really delve into the heart of the mystery, I suggest that you find out anything you can about the "Bull Inn" at no. 25 AHS (abandoned and demolished in 1889). The ultimate solution may lie there somewhere. |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 5:03 pm: |
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Hi AP
There must have been a change from 1881 cos I have full listing for all residents in 1881 census and there were no police officers living there then
Hope this help
Chris S |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 7:26 pm: |
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Hi AP
As Aldgate High Street seem very important to your line of work at the moment I have dragged out all census records I have on file for 1881 for that road. For the sake of space I have only listed head of households but if you want details for any address let me know
Aldgate High Street
1881 - Heads of Household only
No 7 John Batchelor aged 36 Cheesemonger
No 9 Francis Birral aged 27 Restaurant Keeper
Parce Nuns Hotel - Samuel East aged 51 Hotel Keeper
No 19 Uninhabited
No 20 Thesi Givano or Giovani aged 20 Barman
No 20 Harris Tayfield aged 34 Hairdresser
No 20 John G. Dixon aged 50 Police Constable
No 20 George Comptons aged 30 General labourer
No 20 Emma Simmonds aged 44 Charwoman
No 21 Samuel Saxby aged 54 Tobacconist
No 21 Joseph Foskett aged 24
No 23 John Wright aged 47 Coffee house keeper
No 25 Uninhabited
No 26 Sarah Lee aged 73 Pastry cook
No 27 Thomas Langford aged 35 Umbrella maker
No 28 Henry Phillips aged 42 Furniture Dealer
No 30 John Cole aged 69 Ironmonger
No 31 William Cook aged 63
No 32 William H. Wall aged 55 Hatter and Glover
No 33 Charlote Mares aged 49 Coffee house keeper
No 34 C J Ephraim Swann aged 27 Woollen Draper's assistant
No 36 Richard Swift aged 30 Fruiterer
No 37 Samuel Abrahams aged 36 Tobacconist
No 38 Moses Joel aged 40 Superintendent Jewish Meat Market
No 41 Thomas Pearce aged 34 Licensed Victualler
No 48 Arthur Spurgir aged 27 Carcase Butcher Salesman
No 49 William Morris aged 36 Butcher
No 50 Matthew H Fletcher aged 60 Meat salesman
No 52 Anne Poulton aged 65
No 53 Thomas Knott aged 44 Carcase butcher
No 54 Uninhabited
No 55 Uninhabited
No 57 John T Banks aged 27 Butcher
No 58 Eliza L Attwell aged 61 House Keeper
No 59 Charles J Howard aged 28 Carcase Butcher
No 60 Samuel Raymant aged 65 Carcase Butcher
No 62 Emma Richins aged 39 Meat salesman
No 65 James Brookes aged 62 Clerk
No 66 Simon V Linde aged 27 Meat salesman
No 67 Annie Nathan aged 48 Housekeeper
No 68 Henry Huckle aged 47 Butcher
No 69 Frederick A Gray aged 36 Police Superintendent
No 69 Alfred Lloyd aged 26 Police Officer
No 70 Alfred King aged 37 Butcher
No 71 "The Turk's Head" - Ann Bacon aged 41 Licensed Victualler
No 73 Soloman de Leeuw aged 36 Butcher
No 74 Diana Pizzie aged 73
No 75 Frederick L Louisson aged 42 Butcher
No 76 Uninhabited
No 77 Richard C Baverstock aged 42 Licensed Victualler
No 78 Richard W N Cohard? aged 40 Licensed Victualler
No 79 Uninhabited
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AP Wolf
Police Constable
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 3:16 am: |
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Hi Scott
thanks for that. I wasn't only looking for a John Dixon, but any police officer resident in that particular area is obviously of interest.
I suppose in the final end-game it will all come down to naming people at particular places, plus it is more than handy to know just where everyone was. It would be great to be able to dismiss Aldgate High Street as having any importance in the JtR tale, or equally so to be able to say 'yes, there is something going on around here'.
I'd be happy either way.
Thanks for your help, duly appreciated. |
AP Wolf
Police Constable
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 3:22 am: |
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Greetings Chris
thank you so much for all that. I'm going to print it all out and study it at leisure today and get back to you.
Aldgate High Street is not absolutely an essential part of the review of the Myth book, I just feel it highly useful to follow up all these leads, no matter how obscure or seemingly unimportant, even if it is merely to get everything neat and tidy, and I always have the hope that someone else might run with some of this information and come up with something.
Your help always greatly appreciated. |
Scott Nelson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 10:29 am: |
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There certainly was something up with AHS. That's where Sager told us that he and fellow detectives kept surveillance on a suspect that they were sure was JtR. He could have lived/worked at any of the households/shops mentioned by Chris above.
But back to Sager and Rose Alley. There were a number of other City policemen living next to each other, including PCs Edward Kemblen, 35 at no. 3; William Harber, 32 at no. 4; Ernest Heath, 27 at no. 11; John Bachelor, 37 at no. 12 and Robert Deacon, 42 at no. 16.
Because of the proximity of Rose Alley to the Bishopsgate Police Station, it is likely that Sager and his neighbour-colleagues were stationed at this station or liasoned there. The reason for listing these policemen is that one or more of these City officers, including Sager, may have been aware of Eddowes stay at the Bishopsgate station when she was arrested on the night of her murder. Some of these men may also have assisted Sager in the surveillance of the City suspect in Butchers' Row. By the time of the murders in 1888, the number of butcher's premises on AHS had diminished to 17.
I think that the Bull Inn at no. 25 (later managed by Samuel East until 1889) would have made an excellent police surveillance point on their suspect. |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 1:58 pm: |
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Scott
the point you make about Sager and his fellow police officers at Bishopsgate Police Station knowing the whereabouts of Eddowes on that night is most provoking.
To fictionalize the scene for a moment:
PC Heath and PC Kemblen come off duty from Bishopsgate Police Station. 'Fancy a pint,Ern, at the Bull?'
'Suits me, Ed, we might bump into Jack.'
Amid much laughter they disappear into the dark and clammy streets of Whitechapel, guided by the distant welcoming lights of the Bull Inn on Aldgate High Street.
Once comfortably ensconsed in the snug, they notice old Inspector so and so drinking at the bar, the loony one who is always rabbiting on about Catholics poisoning him - got to be careful with him though, the old boy always carries a loaded pistol on him - and they call him over for a bit of a laugh.
'Catholics still poisoning you then Charles?' asks Heath.
'Anything going on at Bishopstoke station tonight?' asks Inspector so and so, carefully ignoring the jibe which no officer would have dared to have made when he was on the streets at 'H' division before his recent illness had forced him behind a desk.
'Nah' replies Kemblen.'All quiet down there, just got that drunk Eddowes banged up again, singing her head off she is.'
'Well, have you indeed,' ponders Inspector so and so.
'Yeah, she'll be slung out at one if she sobers up in time,' throws in Heath.
'Must go,' the Inspector says and hastily throws his pint down his neck.
'How's that daft nephew of yours?' calls Kemblen as the Inspector flees the premises.
'He's going to get his pension sooner than he thinks,' remarks Heath.
'That won't be soon enough,' replies Kemblen. 'Those bloody desk coppers!'
(I was enjoying that, I think I might go back to fiction writing, this factual stuff is hard work.)
If you will pardon the fiction, I do think I agree with you on all your points.
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john h sagar
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 6:54 am: |
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Robert Sager was actually born in Simonstone, Lancashire not as indicated on 1891 census entry noted by Scott Gibson.
See also
1861 census - New House, Simonstone, Lancashire (with family)
1881 census - 10 Bridgewater Square, St Giles Cripplegate, london
1901 census - 13 Rose Alley, Bishopsgate, London |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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"john h sagar <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 6:54 am:
Robert Sager was actually born in Simonstone, Lancashire not as indicated on 1891 census entry noted by Scott Gibson."
Just noticed this post from almost two years ago...Any relation to Robert Sagar?
Sir Robert
"I only thought I knew"
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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AmateurSleuth
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
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Detective Constable Robert Sagar was born in 1853 according to the 1881 Census and not 1852 stated on this site. Sorry!! |
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