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Andy Spallek
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 3:16 pm: |       |
"Since Friday..."
The more I study about Druitt the more interesting the case gets. Let's consider the "suicide" letter:
1. Apparently addressed to his brother and found by him among Montague's effects, there is no independent evidence confirming either of these claims. The brother could have written it himself and lied about it as he lied about Montague having no other relatives. Therefore, the letter may have no meaning at all. Yet it seems rather unlikely that William would want to bring the stigma of suicide on himself and his brother's memory by prodicing a false letter -- unless the truth would have been a worse stigma.
2. What happened on "Friday" that caused Montague to think he "was going to be like mother"? Most of the time we think of it as his dismissal from his teaching job. But do we know that this took place on Friday, Nov. 30, or was this just another unsubstantiated statement by his brother? Also, is it likely that this dismissal would have caused Montague to feel that he was going to be insane in the future? Is it likely that even an unstable person would say, "Oh dear, I've been sacked. I guess that means I'll end up in the assylum like my mother"? I'll grant that it might be possible if the dismissal were tied to some behavior that was considered a mental illness, such as perhaps homosexuality. But then, that could hardly have been the nature of his mother's "illness," so would that cause MJ to feel "like mother?"
3. What Friday are we talking about? If the note was written on Friday Nov. 30 or Sat. Dec 1 "Friday" is a rather odd way of referring to the day (rather than "yesterday" or "today"). However, one may allow for the thinking in MJ's mind that the note would not be discovered for some days. I am intrigued by the possibility that the note may have been written long before Nov. 30 and may in fact refer to Friday August 31 (the date of the first canonical killing). Perhaps brooding after his deed, MJ realized his lack of sanity.
4. Was this really a "suidcide" note? "...the best thing is for me to die" is not quite the same as saying that "I have decided to end it all" or "...to kill myself." It could merely be an expression of despair and not a decalration of intent to commit suicide -- which could explain how the note might have been written in early September and Druitt have lived to commit additional murders.
Andy
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Bruce Tonnermann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 2:38 am: | |
But all is speculation.
And evermore shall be so. |
Andy Spallek
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 1:59 pm: | |
Yes, there is much speculation involved. But I hope that we wouldn't merely dismiss speculation, as it can serve a useful purpose. And I hope that others see some sound reasoning as a basis for my sepculation and my speculative questions. When speculation is based on minimal evidence and sound reasoning and when it provides potential answers to unanswered questions, it is worth considering.
What I am really hoping for from this thread is some reaction to my speculation that says either, "Yes, that makes sense," or "No, you're on the wrong track with your thinking."
Andy
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Bruce Tonnermann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 1:36 am: | |
One man's speculation is another man's fact. |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 31
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 7:31 pm: | |
An interesting point about Montague Druitt's suicide note, as paraphrased in a rare press account:
Is it grammatically correct? |
Andy Spallek
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
The letter as reported in the press account said, "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die."
It's important to remember that it was reported that the contents of the letter were "to this effect:", i.e. not an exact quote, but rather the recollection of the reporter, so exact points of grammar are tenuous. Still, I don't see any grammatic anomalies. The language is rather straightforward, but the unknowns are:
1. Which "Friday" is meant?
2. Exactly what happened on Friday to produce this melancholic feeling?
3. Is this a declaration of intent to commit suicide?
I admit that the most likely answers are (1) Nov. 30, (2) MJD was sacked from his place of employment, and (3) yes. However, the questions I raise above are nagging. And it also must be remembered that the letter may not have been genuine at all.
Andy
|
Caroline Anne Morris
Sergeant
Username: Caz
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 11:08 am: | |
Hi Andy, John,
I would be slightly worried if we could be sure that the letter actually put this in the past tense, ie "Since Friday I felt I was going to be like mother, and the best thing for me was to die."
I appreciate that a suicide note is written with the expectation that the writer will be dead by the time it is found and read. But is it common for it to be worded as though the writer was already in his watery grave when he put pen to paper?
Or would we expect a depressed Druitt, looking forward to a bleak future in an asylum, to have written instead:
"Since Friday I have been feeling I am going to be like mother, and the best thing for me is to die."
Any thoughts?
Love,
Caz |
John V. Omlor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 11:53 am: | |
Hi Caz,
It's funny you should mention this about the note. I have always felt like the grammar was more than a little ambiguous. You're right about the past tense of the verbs, but I'm not sure I can tell whether or not they represent what rhetoricians call prosopopeia, the rhetorical creation of a voice speaking from absence, and most often from beyond the grave. It was a device that was, in fact, commonly used in dramatic literature of the 19th Century (Paul de Man chronicles this in several of his essays on the subject). I think it would not be uncommon to find it in a suicide note of the period.
On the other hand, I think the grammar could also be simply a way of speaking about the present using the past, because of the opening clause of the sentence. That is, the "Since Friday," places the sentence in the past and then the writer simply remains consistent with that placement without thinking about the implications. It would not be technically correct, but I could see how it could happen.
In any case, I suppose we cannot be sure even about the exact wording of the note (thereby complicating the problem even further), but I do think that if it was worded in this way, the meaning could not be definitively determined. In that sense, the Druitt note and the famous graffitti have something in common.
And, of course, there are many other elements of this case which pose similar problems of interpretation.
All the best,
--John
|
Andrew Spallek
Police Constable
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 7:34 pm: | |
John,
Yes, I think that is the explanation for the past tense. Remembering that MJD was a highly educated Victorian it would have come naturally for him to use very correct (and to us rather "high sounding") grammar. The letter describes how MJD began to feel on Friday, therefore it is correctly placed in the past tense.
But I still question whether this is a likely result of being sacked from one's job -- or is it more likely an expression of remorse over some serious misdeed and of apprehension that the misdeed might be repeated?
Andy Spallek
|
John V. Omlor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
Hi Andy,
Yes, that's a good question. In a strange way, this almost reminds me of the long, odd note that OJ Simpson left before the famous Bronco chase. That one was a lot more self-obsessed and image-conscious, of course. But in it, he says that he had nothing to do with Nicole's murder but then speaks as if he can't go on and can't say why and talks about loving her too much and also speaks to his friends as if he's already gone. The grammar and the spelling in that note are atrocious and the odd writing makes it almost unreadable in places. In fact, in one very strange, perhaps Freudian slip in the letter's most important sentence, he writes, "First, everyone understand nothing to do with Nicole's murder." In the text, he leaves out the words "I had" -- which were later supplied by Robert Kardashian when he read the note on television (and the words appeared thereafter in newspaper accounts).
Of course, we must also consider that both men were in states of great stress at the time they were writing and, whether it was because of periodic stylistic concerns (as MD's may have been) or whether it was because of the emotions of the act or the inability to express what one feels so strongly, the ambiguity that resulted is, for readers after the fact, ultimately unsolvable.
Letters, it seems, don't always arrive successfully at their destinations.
Kafka says that reading and writing letters is conversing with ghosts. In the case of suicide notes, especially prosopopetic ones, this conversation can be especially enigmatic but also especially poignant.
All the best,
--John
PS: For those interested, the uncorrected text of the Simpson note can be found in Jeffrey Toobin's The Run of His Life, New York: Touchstone, 1996. In it, OJ goes in and out of speaking of himself in past tense and at the end of the note writes: Don't feel sorry for me. I'v had a great life made great friends. Please think of the real OJ and not this lost person. Thank for making my life special I hope I help yours. Peace + Love O.J.
Toobin reports that, "inside the O in his name, Simpson scrawled a happy face...." |
Petra Zaagman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 12:26 pm: | |
If I would write a suicide note, how would it look like? I tried to imagine what kind of suicide note MJ would have written by trying to identify myself with him.
Actually, I didn't really found what I was looking for.
He was depressive, and if he was manic'depressive, the dicision to suicide is easily made. (cruel as it sounds..)
Though, I found something else--
I think Montague isn't a very likely suspect.
I took the Chapman case. Most of you agree with me that she was a Ripper victim.
It seems highly unlikely to me that MJ killed Chapman, then cleaned up, caught a train to Blackmouth to play the cricket game at 11.30.
(about that time, it might have been some minutes later) |
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:25 am: | |
Hello Petra,
The problem with ruling Druitt either in or out has always been that we simply do not know what "private information" Macnaghten had. Note that he does not say that he himself discovered the private information; he all but says that Druitt's family was the source and that they themselves believed that Montague was Jack.
I don't know about others but I simply find it very hard to believe that Macnaghten simply concocted this story. It is one thing to claim that you yourself have some "private information" that a person might be a killer. Such a claim can never be verified or disproved. But it is another thing entirely to state that a persons own family has come to the conclusion that their relative might be the murderer. This could lead to a lawsuit unless you have facts to back it up.
Because of this Druitt was and will likely remain a ripper suspect, and to my mind at least, an intriguing one.
Just a thought: Suppose Monty was not the ripper but for whatever reason his family had become convinced that he was, or even managed to convince him? Could this have led to his suicide? I wish that damnable note had survived!
Regards, Vincent |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 559
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 2:00 pm: | |
Hi Vincent
As mentioned above (somewhere!) the press accounts strongly suggest there were two communications from Druitt. There is mention of a letter to George Valentine which hinted at suicide and also the note that was found by Druitt's brother which explicitly said it was better if he did not live.
Presumably both would have been taken as evidence for the inquest but it would be fascinating to know what happened to them after that
Chris
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 560
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 2:04 pm: | |
Vincent
As an example of what i was saying above, the following is from the Dorset Chronival of 10 Jan 1889:
The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide. A paper had also been found upon which the deceased had written, "Since Friday, I have felt as if I was going to be like mother," who had for some months been mentally afflicted |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 2:47 pm: | |
Chris Scott
Thanks for pointing that out. I must admit it hadn't registered with me that that report mentioned "both" the letters. I had assumed that there was only one, addressed to Druitt's brother and left at the school, which by confusion had been transformed into two - one addressed to the brother and one to the headmaster.
I do wonder, though, whether this Dorset Chronicle could have been written by combining other reports - one mentioning only a letter to the brother and the other only a letter to Valentine?
For example the Southern Guardian, referring to the Echo of Thursday [10 January?] also mentions that "The deceased had left a letter, addressed to Mr. Valentine, of the school, in which he alluded to suicide", but leaves out the "paper" referring to Druitt's mother. Other reports mention the letter to Druitt's brother but not the one to Valentine.
One awkward thing is this. If Druitt did leave a letter addressed to Valentine, we have to suppose that it was hidden away so that Valentine didn't see it until William Druitt made enquiries. Wouldn't it be more common to leave a suicide note where it would be found sooner than this?
Chris Phillips
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 561
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 5:31 pm: | |
Hi Chris
I have reread the accounts in the Sourcebook and The Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette refer to two documents - a "letter" and a "paper". the letter was left for Valentine and the paper was addressed to William Druitt and was found when Montague's effects were searched. However the report says the paper to William was found where he resided - whether this refers to Blackheath or his chambers is not clear.
The Southern Guardian is almost word for word the same as the Dorset Chronicle and names its source as the echo.
Two other unanswered emerge from these articles. The Chiswick Gazette article says "Witness (William Druitt) heard from a friend on 11th December that deceased had not been heard of at his chambers for more than a week." Who was this friend? The most likely explanation (as the chambers are explicitly referred to) is a fellow holder of chambers at Kings bench walk.
The Southern Guardian lists attendees at the funeral, mostly family members but also "a few friends" of whom those named are Mr. J.T.Homer and Mr. Wyke-Smith. Could one of these be the friend referred to?
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 562
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
I think the Mr. Wyke-Smith who attended Montague's funeral can be safely identified as Walter Wykesmith, who would have been 47 in 1889 whne MJD died. He was a General Practitioner from Wimborne and this is the only household of the name Wykesmith appearing the 1891 census. (see below)
The address is given as West Borough, Wimborne
 |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 563
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 6:06 pm: | |
There may be an error in the "J.T.Homer" listed as being at Montague's funeral. the most likely candidate I have found was a J.L.Homer, James Leonard to be precise.
He is listed in 1891 as a Lieutenant in the Royal Marines stationed at Eastney Barracks, Portsea, Hampshire. He was aged 25 at the time and was born in Wimborne, Dorset.
In 1881 he was a pupil (aged 15) at Cheltenham College, Bonne House, College Road, Cheltenham, Gloucester.
This is NOT a firm identification, just the most likely candidate so far.
1891 entry is below:
 |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 6:13 pm: | |
Maybe I'm getting confused, but I don't see any reference to a letter to Valentine in the Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette article (as printed by Howells and Skinner) - just the paper addressed to William Druitt, which was found when he "had deceased's things searched where he resided".
I don't really think there's any doubt that he resided at Blackheath rather than at his chambers.
Chris Phillips
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 565
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 7:03 pm: | |
Hi Chris
You're absolutely right!
the report that referred to two documents was the Dorset Chronicle
the Chiswick Gazette refers to a paper addressed to William Druitt, the Southern Guardian refers to a letter addressed to Valentine and the Dorset Chronicle referred to both.
Sorry for any confusion!
Chris
|
Vincent
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 3:37 pm: | |
Chris Scott,
I also assumed there was only one letter. Thanks for pointing out the possibility of a second. Another artifact to search for!
Chris Phillips,
I see your point. Why would Valentine have sat on a letter for so long? Of course, it only "alluded" to suicide so perhaps Valentine did not take it seriously.
Regards, Vincent |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 122
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 10:23 pm: | |
Hello All,
Is there any possibility the written instrument discovered amongst Montague's things, by his brother William, might have been some general writings, like a diary or an uncompleted letter to William .."Since Friday I thought I might become like Mother so..."? As opposed to the clearly addressed letter to Headmaster George Valentine?
If this were the case ( and as Brian would say
"too little data- too much speculation"), then it might conceivably be possible the "Friday" referred to, could have been some days or weeks prior.
The press reports, which, themselves were hastily composed summaries of the evidence presented, hurriedly telegraphed to dead-line newspaper offices, could get the facts or the emphases wrong. Thus making even conjecture impossible.
As regards the "Wyke-Smith" gentleman present at Montague's funeral. He appears to have been a family friend.
He is listed amongst gift-givers at the wedding of Captain Edward Druitt to Squire Sir Frederick Weld's daughter, Christina at Chideock, Dorset in February, 1889. So he might even have been the family doctor. Of course, Edward was Montague's next younger brother.
Chris Scott asks who the friend might have been who alerted William Harvey Druitt to the absence of brother Montague from his chambers 'for over a week".
A colleague of mine unearthed a list of visitors to Wimborne for the Ball in mid December, 1888.
The local paper ( the WIMBORNE GAZETTE or SOUTHERN GUAURDIAN; I think the first) recorded who was visiting whom.
Listed as staying with William Harvey Druitt on December 17th, 1888, was a "Mr ROBERT BALL".
Now if Robert Ball were in touch with Montague's chambers, the most likely calling for him to pursue would be a solicitor or barrister.
There was a solicitor, ROBERT FRANCIS BALL of the firm "Capel-Cure & Ball" of 6 Clements Inn, listed around 1889.
Perhaps this was the gentleman who tipped William off? What do people think ? |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 567
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
The only Robert ball I can find in 1881 data with a remotely applicable profession is:
ROBERT BALL
Address:
15 Ellesmer Road
London
Born 1863 in Bethnal Green
Solicitor's Clerk
But I cannot find any trace of this person (cross checking on plave of birth and age) in the 1891 data
Chris
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 1:42 pm: | |
Hi John and Chris,
Who exactly was Captain Edward Druitt's father in
law, this squire, Sir Frederick Weld? He was obviously a local figure of importance around
Wimborne, but I was just considering the timing of
events here.
If Edward and Christina Weld were getting married in February 1889, they probably had announced this in the summer of 1888. Montague, being the older brother of Edward, might have been the original best man (admittedly a guess on my part - he may have just have been part of the marriage
ceremony party because he was brother of the groom). But if the family was in the process of marrying into a connection with the local gentry,
the suicide would have at least cast a pall on the
ceremony, and would have possibly led to many
unpleasant questions among the Weld family about the Druitts. So, for that matter, would have the
mental state of Montague, William, and Edward's
mother - currently in an asylum. It may explain the terseness of the inquest, and the lack of information as to the cause of the suicide. The fact the marriage continued means the Weld Family must have been reassured somehow about the death
of Monty.
Has anyone tried to find if the Weld family left any papers (I won't say diaries - we've had enough of those with Mr. Maybrick)?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 846
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 4:00 pm: | |
Hi
Could someone enlighten me on this? I thought that high-ranking Victorian families had to observe a set period of mourning. I'm a bit surprised the marriage wasn't postponed.
Robert |
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