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John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 7:53 pm: | 
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Hi Chis,
I did search under D'Ouston, but found nothing.
The problem with the probate calendar is that not all wills are proved during their year or years after the death. Whilst searching the Calendar I found one will that was proved in, I think, 1916 that refered to a death in 1883. Most wills are proved within about a year or so of the death but not always, so it could be that a will may go to probate many years after the death. The problem is how many years do we search?
John Savage |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:10 pm: |
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Hi, Chris et al.:
Another line of research might be to discover when exactly did Robert Donston Stephenson begin calling himself Roslyn D'Onston?
When he wrote to the City of London Police on 16 October 1888, he signed the letter he wrote from Currie Wards, the London Hospital, Whitechapel, as "Major Robert D'O. Stephenson." (See Evans and Skinner, Jack the Ripper: Letters from Hell)
The Patristic Gospels of 1904 were published under the name of "Roslyn D'Onston," and as you have shown, Chris, when he died in the last quarter of 1916, he evidently was still using the name "Roslyn D'Onston"--albeit that as you show his name is shown in the death registry as "Roslyn D'Ouston," aged 76 at Islington (Volume 1b, page 189).
It occurs to me that D'Onston was possibly not calling himself "Roslyn D'Onston" in 1888 and that he was still using the name Stephenson.
Another alternative thought is that he might have flourished his military title Major Stephenson, the name by which he was known while he served during the fight for Italian independence in the forces of Garibaldi, simply to impress the quasi-military-style police, and that he used "Roslyn D'Onston" on other occasions in 1888. Are there any examples that the latter situation might have been so?
All the best
Chris
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 722
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 2:38 pm: |
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Chris
he was definitely going under the name of D'Onston or D'Ouston by 1891 - that is the name by which he is registered as a boarder at the Triangle Hotel in Charterhouse Street in the 1891 census (see separate thread for details)
Chris
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Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 435
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 2:57 pm: |
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Okay, thanks for that piece of information as well, Chris.
Chris |
Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:28 pm: |
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Chris S., in the 1881 census it shows that Rosyln was married but his wife is not enumerated with him. Who was she and what happened to her?
Thanks,
Billy
P.S. From the LDS site:
Roslyn D. STEPHENSON Household
Male
Other Information:
Birth Year <1842>
Birthplace Sculcoates, York, England
Age 39
Occupation M D Not Practising & Scientific Writer On London Press (Author)
Marital Status M <married>
Head of Household Roslyn D. STEPHENSON
Relation Head
Disability [blank]
Source Information:
Dwelling 10 Hollingworth St North
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341053
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0242 / 15
Page Number 24
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Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 10:48 am: |
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Posted today on the JTRForums boards....
"Ivor Edwards received Roslyn D'Onston's death certificate. He died on the 9th of October 1916 at Islington Infirmary, Highgate Hill, Islington. The cause of death is listed as carcinoma of the oesophagus and gastrostomy. His name is spelled as Roslyn D'Ouston, Male 76 years old. His occupation is listed as author. His address is given as 129 St John's Road, Islington. This is the fourth time his name is spelled as D'Ouston in the records. The death was registered on the 10th October 1916." |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 723
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 12:46 pm: |
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Billy
Donston's wife is listed with him in the 1881 census at Hollingworth street North as follows:
Wife:
Annie Stephenson
Born 1844 in Thorne, York
Aged 37
Their marriage was registered at Islington in the first quarter of 1876 where she is listed under her maiden name of Anne Deary. The age shown on the 1881 census is very likely wrong as the BMD registers show only one Anne Deary whose birth was registerd in 1847, not 1844
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on November 21, 2003) |
Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:03 pm: |
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Chris, thank you so much. My question was really of no particular import, just a loose end that seemed to need tying up.
One other loose end. Did Rosyln and Annie divorce or did she die? If she died, how so?
You might make life a little easier on yourself if you want to refer me to a text which you have vetted.
Thanks again and great work on all the research you do!!!
Billy |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 725
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 5:13 pm: |
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Hi Billy
Glad the info was of use - as to the eventual fate of Annie Stephenson, that is a whole different can of worms. It has been theorised that she was a victim of her husband - certainly, as far as I know, no trace of her has been found after the 1881 census.
If anything comes up in the stuff Im doing shortly I will let you know
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 731
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:45 pm: |
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Re my post above about the date of birth of Anne Deary, Donston's wife. I have searched all BMD indices for 1844 (the date given in the 1881 census) and can find no entry for an Anne Deary for that year. I have been able to verify from the same registers the birth of Anne Deay in 1847 (copy of entry below). I am also posting the entry for the wedding in the 1st quarter of 1876 for reference.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on November 25, 2003) |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 732
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:48 pm: |
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I should have added re the entry for Anne Deary's birth:-
The Registrar's district is given as Tunstead Green. Tunstead was a district within the parish of Rochdale, Yorkshire. In the 1881 census Anne Stephenson's place of birth is given as Thorne, Yorks.
CS |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 733
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 3:58 pm: |
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Billy
Re the fate of Donston's wife - the name Anne Deary is sufficiently unusual to make any occurence of it worth following up. So far all we have are:
Her birth in 1847
Her marriage to Donston in 1876.
However there is a third occurence of the name in the BMD registers. A woman called Anne Deary married in Liverpool in 1895 - she married either Edward Carr or Michael Joseph - there are four alphabetically arranged entries on the register page and at this stage we cannot sure whther she became Mrs Carr or Mrs Joseph. However I will be looking in the 1901 census to try and trace her and verify place of birth and age to see if she could be the Anne Deary we are interested in. If that proves to be the case, the most likely scenario would be that at some time between 1881 and 1891 she divorced Donston/Stephenson and reverted to her maiden name before remarrying. Anything I find I will post here
chris
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 734
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 5:28 pm: |
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Billy
re the Anne Deary marriage in 1895 (4th quarter) I have found the entry below relating to it in the BMD index
Chris
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 735
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 10:02 am: |
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The death certificate for Donston arrived today and Im attaching below a scan of the relevant part:
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 738
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:47 am: |
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One obervation about the death certificate for D'Onston. Under cause of death it says the following:
"1) Carcinoma of oesophagus
2) Gastrostomy
3 days
Certified by G J Cirk"
Entry 1 is straightforward - a cancer of the throat or gullet. "Gastrostomy" is not an illness, it is actually a medical procedure defined as follows:
Gastrostomy is a surgical procedure for inserting a tube through the abdomen wall and into the stomach. The tube is used for feeding or drainage.
In the case of such a cancer such a feeding technique would be understandable but why would it be listed as a cause of death?
And what does the entry "3 days" refer to?
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on November 26, 2003) |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 444
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 11:58 am: |
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Hi, Chris
I would say that it looks as if the "3 days" may mean that D'Onston spent 3 days ill before his death, or 3 days as an inpatient in the hospital before his death. Are you sure the physician's name is "Cirk"? While your image is kind of small it looks to my eyes more like "Cirb" or something similar.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 739
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Here is a a larger version of the parts that include his name
C
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Brad McGinnis
Detective Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 1:00 pm: |
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Hi Chris and Chris,
Let me add my 2 cents here. Many times when a patient is in the terminal stages of cancer areas of the abdoman fill with fluid. This can be in a specific area or just in interstitial spaces. Usually the draining of this fluid can be done no more than twice. I have seen patients with as much as 4300 ccs of fluid drained in this way. This isnt a life prolonging proceedure, in fact it shortens the life by 2 days to a week. Its done strictly to ease the suffering of the patient. Pehaps thats why its listed as a contributing cause of death.
Keep up the good work!
All my best Brad |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 692
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 5:39 am: |
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Folks,
A private mail I received from Ivor Edwards....
Hi Monty,
I have located D'Onston's grave he is buried in a private plot
in the cemetery at High Road, East Finchley, London. Perhaps you would like to
let the casebook know where he was buried in case someone may be interested. I
will be placing photos of his grave site on JtR forums.
Monty
(Message edited by monty on January 26, 2004) |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 87
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 5:11 pm: |
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Congratulations Ivor!
I wonder, who paid for a private plot
in the cemetery at High Road, East Finchley, London? Did Robert Donston Stephenson leave a will? What is the name on the head stone?
Take Care,
Kevin
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Tim York
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Billy,
Ivor Edwards in his book "Jack the Ripper's Black Magic Rituals" did a bit or research on his wife, check it out the details in his book. Basically the last record of her was in 1886. Then on May 11,1887 body parts of a woman who had never had children (the same as his wife) turned up in the Thames amd Regents Canal. At the time D'Onston lived right next to the Regents Canal which connected to the Thames. Most of the body was found except for the head which could have identified the victim (and led police to D'onston). The police they also deduced that this was done by someone with medical knowledge.
TM |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 633
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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Hi Tim,
Actually, that info is outdated. The wife was alive and well many years later, just not with Stephenson anymore.
And, to be accurate, it was Melvin Harris' research that came up with that idea, Ivor just reused it.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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There has been no will found to date, but I remember Melvin Harris saying that there was no way that DOnstons grave would ever be found in this country or in Europe being that he had already searched high and low. So it just goes to show, that what appears lost may not be gone forever.
The plot was paid for by a William Taylor whom called Roslyn DOnston "a friend." He was buried 12 feet down and his plot is accompanied by another body and an empty plot that never got used.
More info on this find can be found @JtRforums.
And Dan is right about ONE thing in his post above ... And that is that Anne Deary was indeed found to be alive after 1888.
All the best.
Tee.
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 646
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:53 pm: |
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Tee,
One thing, eh? As I only said two things in my post, you must be claiming the other one is wrong. So are you trying to tell us that Harris didn't come up with that (incorrect) theory that Stephenson had killed his wife? You want us to believe that Ivor Edwards came up with that himself?
I have Harris' The True Face of Jack the Ripper right here. The back jacket says that Stephenson "almost certainly murdered his wife." Full details of the theory are inside... the same theory that Edwards put in his book. (That's unsurprising, as the overall content of both books is eerily similar, even though Edwards doesn't give appropriate attribution for the parts he took from Harris.)
I'm not sure why you'd want to claim that it was original research when it is so easily demonstrated that it was not, and especially since it was dead wrong.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 5:30 am: |
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Yes Dan. ONE thing.
You wrote.
"And, to be accurate, it was Melvin Harris' research that came up with that idea."
Let me "Correct" you there. And to be accurate Harris got that idea from Whittington-Egan... It was not his own idea, and it was Egan who informed Harris that he should write a book on D'Onston.
Harris got the Cremers story from Whittington-Egan's book to start with if you must know because the latter used the O'Donnell papers on Cremers and D'Onston in his own book before Harris had ever heard of D'Onston. Not many people know that because Egan only had published a very small limited edition of his book
You wrote,
"Edwards doesn't give appropriate attribution for the parts he took from Harris."
The hard back edition Edwards wrote acknowledges Harris and I quote.... "the claim of Mr Melvin Harris to be a primary source of certain material contained in this book."
His paper back edition has a large acknowledgement which takes up half a page. So you should really get your facts right..... Besides, Edward's paid a lot of money to the NSPPC to use the Cremers material in his book....a lot of money I might add which he never had to pay.
If you read Whittington-Egan's book on Cremers and D'Onston you will find that Harris copied much of it word for word from Egan's book. In fact Harris always tried to keep the part Whittington-Egan played in his book out of the picture. Harris gives far less of an acknowledgment to Egan than Edwards did to Harris yet you make no mention of that.
Edwards had merely read the same source Harris had read on Anne Deary and he believed it was possible that D'Onston could have killed her. He did not copy Harris' idea on that point...... he came to the same conclusion independently. Ivor found quite a lot out by himself without Harris, including D'Onston's Death certificate and his grave..which O'Donnell, Whittington- Egan, Harris or many others could not do and only one poster from this site, Sir Robert..made mention of it. I think that sums it up quite nicely. Ivor Edwards (and I) will be at the Brighton Confererence and I know we are just chomping at the bit waiting to meet you Dan.
Best wishes.
Tee.
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 658
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 7:06 pm: |
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Tee,
Right... Ivor "independently" came to the exact same idea that Harris did and didn't at all take it from the same book where he copied large pieces of text word for word without even attributing the original source.
Yes, I realize you two are chomping at the bit to meet me... Ivor already said that a couple of different times on your own website and in the same tone. I get the thinly veiled hint, especially with Ivor's history of physical threats. You can give it a rest though as I'm most likely not going to Brighton.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
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Can I just add that Donston when asked about his wife made a gesture by turning his thumb up like a knife and running it along his throat letting out a sickening groan. So I think many people had come to the "Independent conclusion" that she had been killed. So I`m not sure anyone but DOnston himself led people to "Independently conclude" that his wife was dead.
And ONLY because of Chris Scott's terrific research that hasn`t been discredited (at all!!!) by the people that thought quite wrongly in regard to DOnston "Offing" his missus ... was found to be alive and well after 1888.
Tee
www.jtrforums.co.uk
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 466
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
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Two other possible reasons for the "gutteral groan" let out by an obviously agitated Stephenson when Cremers queried him about his wife come to mind. In fairness, it is out of character for the person that Cremers discusses with O'Donnell....a calm,silent,creepy sort of person who could sneak up you like April 15th,with nary a sound. { April 15th is tax day for Americans...]
First,the natural reaction by a man who has endured a 'bad marriage". Women probably do that too. Admit it ,girls....
Secondly,and the one I lean towards...is that his marriage to his Mom's servant had more than likely completely ostracized him and cut him off from his father [ read : $ ] and from this decision to marry Anne, whom he is alleged to have left 2 years later for India, he suffered the consquences of being indebted to either his mother or another family link for money in order to survive.
Just my opinion....until we can prove it.
HowBrown
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