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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Barnett, Joseph » Barnett's pipe « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through May 26, 2003Brian W. Schoeneman25 5-26-03  1:55 pm
Archive through June 16, 2003Leanne Perry25 6-16-03  8:27 am
Archive through June 27, 2003Leanne Perry25 6-27-03  7:11 am
Archive through July 15, 2003Leanne Perry25 7-15-03  10:38 am
Archive through July 22, 2003Jeff Hamm25 7-22-03  5:32 pm
Archive through July 24, 2003John Hacker25 7-24-03  6:30 pm
Archive through August 01, 2003Caroline Anne Morris25 8-01-03  4:59 am
Archive through August 05, 2003Glenn L Andersson25 8-05-03  8:02 pm
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page        

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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 570
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

This is what I found after reading just one book on murder cases:
* In the 1940s Arthur Eggers mutilated his wife Dorothy because : 'he lost his temper in an argument about her going out with other men.' He was described by colleagues as 'a mild-mannered clerk.'
* In the 1990s Cecil Jackson strangled his wife Dassa, then dumped her body into a bath of acid, because he found her in bed with another man.
* In 1962 Hungarian Gezade Kaplary married Hanja. He used acid to tortutre her which resulted in her death, because she would not return his love. He was described as intelligent, educated and had a sophisticated European air.
Shall I search on?

LEANNE
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Glenn L Andersson
Sergeant
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 18
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi there Leanne.

There's mutilation and then there's -- mutilation. Look at the picture, Leanne.

Once again, where are the evidence to show that Barnett was able to perform this act, that would make us prefer this "solution" instead of others? It's still all nothing but circumstancial speculations, based on romantic fairy-tale assumptions.

Where are the facts to support these wild conclusions? There are none. But it would make a great Hollywood movie (in the same way Cornwell's book would)...

All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 571
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day Glen,

I've seen the picture, over and over!!!
Hey....her killer took her heart! Left her kidney, left her uterus and took her heart! THAT'S A FACT!!!! Then spat on her grave!

One of those examples I gave, was a man described as: "MILD-MANNERED" and another possessed a: "SOPHISTICATED EUROPEAN AIR."

LEANNE
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert

Post Number: 523
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 9:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne

There is nothing romantic about a heart!

We're not back to the grave-spitting, are we?

Robert
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 200
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne and Robert

If needed we shall rehash the grave spitting from the beginning, but please can we forget about the pipe for now.

Best
gary
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert

Post Number: 525
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Gary

Barnett's pipe went out ages ago, and the peace pipe seems to have taken its place.

I suppose we should transfer to the Barnett thread.

Robert
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Glenn L Andersson
Sergeant
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 20
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne.


What grave-spittning?????? Where did that come from?

"Hey....her killer took her heart! Left her kidney, left her uterus and took her heart!"

Should that mean that we should interpret it symbolic? Hmmm... I don't think so. Why should this mean anything?

I read your examples, Leanne, and they were certainly interesting. You can continue to look, and probably find even more, but they are still an exaggerated form of killing we don't see everyday. It takes more stated facts than has been presented here to tribute the slaying in Miller's Court to Barnett. He sat four hours, being interregated by the police and they didn't find anything wrong with him or his statement!

By the way, "sophisticated European air" is hardly relevant in Barnett's case, do you think? Of course a lot of murderers have been known to their environment as mild-mannered, but does that mean that we should arrest all mind-mannered individuals who've known a victim of murder?

What bothers me is that you seem so convinced about Barnett's guilt. I for myself have a few thought about the Ripper's identity or who killed Kelly, but I wouldn't state my thoughts as an absolute fact. We simply don't know, Leanne.

Barnett may well be the perpetrator but he could also be completely innocent; there is nothing called "being convinced" in the Jack the Ripper case, Leanne. We can always speculate, though, but that is something completely different than what's been displayed here.

All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Glenn L Andersson
Sergeant
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 21
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi.

I agree.

I never understood what this discussion were doing under the "pipe" thread anyway.
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 573
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 5:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day Glenn,

Search for the word 'spat', and you'll find the information in the message board archives.

Don't you think that Jack the Ripper indulged in exaggerated killing? Do we see these type of murders every day?

My mention of 'sophisticated European air' was to point out that these murderers where seen as completely sane, calm citizens that never displayed their other-side in public.

'He sat four hours being interrigated by the police'. If we are going to believe his reported statement in the press that his interview went four hours, then look at the rest of this statement: 'they examined my clothes for bloodstains, and finally finding the account of myself to be correct, let me go free'. This was before her inquest, so they hadn't yet established her most likely time of death! Anyway, that 'four hour' press statement appeared in 'Lloyd's Newspaper' 11 Nov. Speaking to the 'Star', Barnett said the police had kept him for 'two and a half' hours!

This discussion is under the "pipe" thread because no one has bothered yet to transfer it!

LEANNE
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 208
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 6:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne

Would you please do the deed and transfer the thread. Without your cooperation the thread will stay the same and I for one expected to find over 200 posts on the pipe.

All The Best
Gary
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert

Post Number: 532
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 6:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Gary

Who knows, maybe Leanne is going to argue that Joe spat his pipe into the grave!

Robert
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 574
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

ROBERT: HA HA! I'm rolling all over the place in laughter!

GARY: On the 'Sickert, Walter, a passing funeral' thread, 'Archive through March 24, 2003', Richard Brian Nunweek said that something interesting came to light on a radio program in 1959. When the subject of discussion was on the Ripper murders, someone wrote in and relayed a story told to them by their elderly mother, [or grandmother], who was one of two young girls who were in Leytonstone cemetry after the funeral of MjK and witnessed an event that happened after everyone had left. The girls saw a man parting the boards to the grave, and spitting on it. The girls were too frightened at the time to report it. The only males at Kelly's service were the priest and Joseph Barnett!

Does someone else want to start a new thread?

LEANNE
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Glenn L Andersson
Sergeant
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Since noone else get around to it, I have.

Use it or loose it.

All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Glenn L Andersson
Sergeant
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

P.S. The thread is called "Joseph Barnett discussion -- continued"
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 575
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

Richard should start a 'Gave-Spitting' thread, because he's the one who mentioned it, and I never even knew about it, until he brought it up.

When we were debating the incident, gullible people kept saying that it was a sign of LOVE. If so, can't I accept that taking of her heart as a sign of LOVE?

LEANNE
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Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson

Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 7:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry to resurrect this unsavory topic again, but here's some more speculation on Barnett's supposed "pipe". Let's look again at the pipe statements made in: 1) the November 12th Kelly Inquest testimony by Abberline for the official police record and, 2) the story as reported by an unnamed journalist in the November 13th Daily Telegraph (DT).

Police version: "I am informed by the witness Barnett that the key has been missing for some time & that they opened the door by reaching through the window, a pipe was there & used by him."

DT version: "An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy. There was a man's clay pipe in the room and Barnett informed me that he smoked it."

These two statements are interesting. If one looks at the photograph taken of the outside of Kelly's room, the police version makes perfect sense. Barnett was telling Abberline about the missing key, so he may have said that the mode of entry was to "use" the drain pipe to balance himself with his right hand while reaching through the broken pane with his left hand to release the catch. Look at the sentence structure in the police version. It doesn't make any sense if the topic suddenly switches mid-sentence to describe a clay pipe used for smoking. This statement may be exclusively describing the alternate mode of entry into the room because of a missing key.

But what does the DT journalist think when he or she hears Abberline's testimony? If they were not at Miller's Court to observe the outside of the room, they would not have known about the drain pipe, so Abberline's statements, if accurately recorded in the police version of the testimony, would seem confusing. So the journalist, not knowing what was meant by the [drain] pipe, may have assumed that Abberline had suddenly changed the topic from the door catch to a clay pipe found in the room. Notice the transitioning of the wording in the two statements, "a pipe was there" [question: where?] in contrast to the journalist's clay pipe found "in the room", and in the words "used" as opposed to "smoked". If the journalist heard the word "used", he or she would be all the more confused if they had assumed that Abberline was referring to a clay smoking pipe. So the statement was divided into two sentences for reader clarification. And if it wasn't clear if the pipe belonged to Barnett, the writer would have further assumed that Barnett "smoked" it, but didn't necessarily own it. This is exactly how the wording in the DT version transpires as I see it.

This assumes, of course, that the police version is the more accurate of the two, and that the DT version contains journalist embellishments, which may or may not be the case. It would be interesting to know if other newspaper journalists were present and reported similar or disimilar versions of "the pipe" story as in the DT. I have seen other newspaper accounts of the inquest, but can't tell if the reporters are borrowing from or paraphrasing the DT version.

It is interesting to go through different accounts of the same event (like the Kelly Inquest testimony) and compare the variations of what was said. The Evans and Skinner Ultimate Sourcebook/Companion affords just an opportunity, with the police version of the inquest found on pages 367-376. Compare, for example, the statements of Bowyer, McCarthy, Cox, Lewis and Dr. Phillips to those recorded in the November 13th DT, to be found in the News From Whitechapel, or in the Press Releases section on this website. Although generally similar in the accounting of the inquest testimonies, there are enough variations between the two sources that make an interesting study of how people (journalists, court police recorders?) hear and interpret things differently.

In summary, it is quite possible that there was no clay pipe found in the room at Miller's Court.
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Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm

Post Number: 42
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 8:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Scott,
I think there's another version as well which also inlcludes reference to a candle in a broken wine glass. This candle is mentioned between the "reaching" and the mentioning of the "pipe". As I recall it's also clear in that version the pipe is of the smoking variety. Also, it tends to break the link between the "pipe" and the "window reaching".

Anyway, if your suggestion is correct and this pipe is the drain pipe, then obviously Anderson's statement doesn't refer to the Kelly scene. If, however, the pipe was a smoking pipe then it's still unlikely it's Joe's pipe Anderson is talking about.

I think a smoking pipe is far more likely given even the police version. If it was the drain pipe being described as a way of gaining entry during the window reaching trick, then the quote seems far too cryptic. A normal speaker, especially speaking in an official capacity, would have clarified that point to the jury. It would be very odd not to do so.

- Jeff

If memory serves
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Alexander Chisholm
Sergeant
Username: Alex

Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 9:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Scott & Jeff

Despite the wording reproduced in the Ultimate Sourcebook, the actual wording of Abberline’s testimony in the official Kelly inquest notes is as follows:

I am informed by the witness Barnett that the key has been missing for some time & that they opened the door by reaching through the window, a pipe also in the room Barnett says was there & used by him.

So I think we can be pretty sure that both the DT and official record relate to a smoking pipe.

Best Wishes
alex

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Alexander Chisholm
Sergeant
Username: Alex

Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pipe testimony
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Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm

Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 1:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Alexander!
Great post! Nice, simple, and hard to argue with! Where did you get the image of the text?

- Jeff
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Alexander Chisholm
Sergeant
Username: Alex

Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 8:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Jeff

I bought copies of the files back in the dark days before the Ultimate Sourcebook. The Kelly Inquest papers, MJ/SPC, NE 1888 Box 3 Case Paper 19 were supplied by the Greater London Record Office.

Knowing that some proof would be required – and rightly so – before my version was accepted in preference to the Sourcebook, I thought it best to scan the extract of page 17 above.

Best Wishes
alex


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Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm

Post Number: 46
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 4:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wonderful! This is a good lesson, actually. Always question the source. Although for most of us, things like the "source book" and "letters from hell", are as close as we'll get to the original documents, even these texts will have errors. I recall seeing in Letters, for example, a type-written version of a letter also shown as a picture. And the text didn't match.

This should not be taken as a suggestion of "sloppy work" by the authors. They've done an excellent job. However, all transcriptions of original material will have some errors. This is why tape recording witness statements is better than having someone else write down what they say. Again, thanks.

- Jeff
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Alexander Chisholm
Sergeant
Username: Alex

Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You’re absolutely right, Jeff.

If my lengthy experience of transcribing historical documents has taught me anything it is that, no matter how diligently such documents are double checked, errors can and sometimes do slip through.

Recognising the possibility of errors, however, cannot diminish the unrivalled contribution Stewart & Keith’s Ultimate Sourcebook has made to the advancement of Ripperology in general. IMHO, that is.

Best Wishes
alex

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Jeff Hamm
Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm

Post Number: 48
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 5:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
I can't agree more! Stewart & Evans contribution is huge. In no way should anyone think that just because errors occur that makes the research shoddy in any way. I'm sure both the authors themselves would be the first to admit that mistakes sometime get through no matter how careful one is. Personally, I would have been surprised not to find some transcription errors in a work so large.

- Jeff
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Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson

Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 6:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I guess that kind of illustrates the point in a round-about way. Thank you all. BTW Alex, is the image above actually Abberline's handwriting or that of the court transcriber?
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Alexander Chisholm
Sergeant
Username: Alex

Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 8:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Scott

The extract above is not Abberline’s writing. The notes of proceedings would have been written by a court official.

Best Wishes
alex

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chriss whicker
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 4:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

does any one know about mr barnetts family
were was he born was he marr. his parents
brothers and sisters. was one of these
mary ann or [marian ?
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 668
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 6:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day Chris,

Read about him in 'Suspects', on the left-hand panel!

LEANNE
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chriss whicker
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 2:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

thank you LEANNE
ive copied this of to read .
im doing family history and are related to barnetts.
this family may not be mine.
ours came from dorset/bucks/ then ended up in paddington.. but its an interesting story..
criss whicker.
christopher.whicker@ntlworld.com

thanks for your help
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James Lugert
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 6:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a big point I want to share regarding this pipe.
* October 30 - Barnett is kicked out of 13 Millers court, and asked not to return, in a violent domestic dispute that ends with a broken window.When he takes up new residence, I assume he takes all his belongings.
* I accept that he may have forgotten his pipe on Oct 30th.However - I would like to quote, " he visits her often in the next 9 days up to her murder". Kelly has had numerous occasions to simply say - YOU HAVE LEFT YOUR PIPE HERE.But she doesnt on any occasion. Seeing as though she didnt use a pipe, it would only be taking up space.If she has several chances to give it to him - than I ask why didnt she?

* the most logical conclusion is that he has left it there on the night of the 9th.
thank you.
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 565
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

James,

However violent that one argument may have been, Barnett was welcome to return for a visit (if nothing else, he usually brought a little money for Mary) and given that it would make sense to leave his pipe. Clay pipes, even for someone in Barnett's straits, were relatively cheap and they were quite fragile. It would make sense, so long as he was welcome, to leave a pipe there for a smoke whenever he dropped in. Tobacco was easily transported, but not a pipe.

Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 896
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Don,

Exactly, clay pipes are short-lived disposable pipes, not like briars or meerschaums. Besides, no pipe smoker of any worth has just one pipe!

Heather Coleman has put together a fantastic site devoted to clay pipes. There's some history on the manufacture as well.

Dave

(Message edited by oberlin on May 24, 2005)

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