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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2307
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 2:21 pm: | 
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For the Druids.
An interesting little case from Seaham, 1899, where a young girl is brutally murdered and mutilated, and then the killer drowns himself.
Thought it might help as to the psychology of such crimes and killers. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3747
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
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AP,
Can you give me a more detailed description of the nature of the mutilations?
Did she know her killer or was it a stranger (I assume he did know her quite well, since he took his own life, which indicates personal involvement, but anyway...)
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2308
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
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I’d like to Glenn, but I still don’t know too much about the case myself yet.
The girl was about eight years old, named Caroline Edith Winter, and was murdered and mutilated in a cave at Seaham.
Her injuries were mostly to the face, however the newspapers balked at giving further details of the injuries to her body which were described as most ‘horrible’; the poor girl was also the subject of an ‘outrage’.
Before the man was found drowned on the beach - close to the cave where the murder took place - the police were searching for - and found - a tramp who was suspected of the murder, but he was eventually cleared.
Some time after the crime the police were looking for a man who had smuggled himself on a ship somewhere near to Seaham, heading for Scotland… apparently he fitted witness descriptions of the man who led the young girl away at the time of her murder.
So who was the drowned man?
Very complicated but I’m still following the case. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3748
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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Oh boy! Eight years old... doesn't sound like a relative, unless it was his daughter. But it doesn't sound like it. Still, mutilations to the face...
As for her age... Could it have been some kind of pedophile sexual crime turning into murder and mutilation... and then suicide for the killer considering the nature of the crime?
Keep us updated. Horrible crime.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 220
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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AP,
Can you possibly tell us why this murder, occurring eleven years after the 'JTR' murders, has any bearing on this case whatsoever?
And what I mean by this is simple; what can we learn from a murder that occurred eleven years after the 'JTR' murders, that we can actually apply to the study of these murders, that can not be simply dismissied as non-scientific and or irrelevant?
I simply don't understand how anyone can learn anything from looking at what the Boston Strangler did, applying that knowledge to the 'JTR' murders, then not receiving numbers of challenges on that hypothetical analyses, which in turn leads us back to square one.
I guess I may have answered my own question.
SJR |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2309
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 5:52 pm: |
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Stan
I just mentioned the case because I thought it would interest people who have an interest in Druitt as Jack the Ripper, for here we have a genuine murderer and mutilator of the female species who actually drowned himself after the crime.
These sort of little details are very important to a wider understanding of the case. |
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 221
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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AP,
Fair enough.
In fact, I'm curious to know how that case helps the understanding of this case.
SJR |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2310
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Stan
Well personally I would say that no killer of women unrelated to himself would kill himself by drowning.
His ego would not allow for such a thing.
But you see, a killer of a woman unrelated to himself did just that.
So I have had to revise my personal opinion of such killers, and allow that a man who would kill women unrelated to himself might well drown himself… in the Thames or elsewhere.
It is a contribution, not an argument.
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
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AP,
I agree. It is a contribution. I would hope that my dissent on your opinion would also be considered a contribution, yet we both know that will not be the case.
So as a result of the 1899 murder are you now advocating Druitt as the murderer? May I ask how this murder suddenly eliminates all the contradictory evidence regarding Druitt as 'JTR'? For if this murder, as you see it, now places Druitt as a viable suspect again, wouldn't the converse also work? Every single serial murder that does not apply to Druitt should eliminate him from consideration.
Also, along these lines, if some sick individual actually wanted to murder someone in a way that was linked to the habits of a suspect, wouldn't that suddenly make them a seriously viable candidate?
This is my contribution. It is not an argument, yet rather a calm discussion, showing my dissent for comparison between 'JTR' and other serial murders.
Profiling is a tool, generally used when there are hundreds or thousands of suspects, to narrow it down to a few. Profiling is almost always used to its maximum benefit on current cases. It has never been, to my knowledge, accurately used to solve a murder that occurred years before any murder it was being compared to. It had never, not once, made any tangible contribution to this case, therefore I personally hold no stock in it.
Discussion, not argument.
SJR |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 909
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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Thanks AP --
This is indeed interesting. I was never troubled by the fact that Druitt drowned himself after killing (if he did indeed do it) these women. What troubles me is the lack of any history of violent behavior on his part. I wonder if the perpetrator of this Seaham crime had any history of violent behavior.
Andy S. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3749
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
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Stan,
Here we go again.
Who mentioned anything about profiling?
I might acknowledge that a thread like this might in fact be more suitable in the Shades of Whitechapel section, but I just don't understand how general knowledge of other cases can hurt anything. The more we know, the more we learn.
Others might be interested if you're not.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 223
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:01 pm: |
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Glenn,
Well then please give me the correct term for analyzing another serial murder and using that information to assertain information on an unsolved murder. I call that profiling.
Someone gathers information, a "profile" of what a serial killer "should be", and then applies that to an unsolved murder case. In no instance has that ever worked to arrive at one person.
I could care less about where the thread is. I'm not anal about such insignificant things.
Well as you say, "I just don't understand how general knowledge of other cases can hurt anything". I respond by saying - I know, and have never seen where knowledge of other cases has helped this particular case. So where some choose to pursue this fruitless endeavor, I focus on more tangible aspects of the case.
I'm glad that others might be interested in murder. As a crime historian it would seem that you must be interested in it, so much to tell us that you are a crime historian. But this is a different animal. A well respected author and researcher is basically implying that because of a murder that occurred in 1899, he is now possibly advocating or considering advocating another suspect. This is not interest. This is the application of profiling techniques.
I guess its okay for some people to love murder cases, or have an interest in them, depsite the fact that they have been solved. My interest in this case is not the grisly act of murder, it is attempting to solve an unsolved murder.
So I ask again, not combatatively, please show me one example where comparisons to another serial murder has made one suspect more, or even less viable.
SJR |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3750
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Stan,
I don't know AP:s motive for bringing other cases to our attention here, but who said anything about solving anything?
Although I at times have used other cases to compare with the Ripper's, I have usually done this when people have said: 'A killer or a person can't do this and that in that situation' and then when it is possible to display other cases where this has happened, one can show that they are wrong. But never in my life do I believe that comparing the Ripper case to others might solve it.
I know you're trying to solve the Ripper murders (or believe that it can be done) but you're right -- as a crime historian that is not my issue. I would say it is totally uninteresting.
You are the one speaking about solving things. I am talking about gaining general knowledge and insight. As far as I am concerned, that is never a bad thing. The more cases we study, the more insight we get. One of profiling's great problems is that its statistical base is too small.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 224
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
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Glenn,
Well AP basically described his motive. He was bringing this case up for those who believe in Druitt as 'JTR'. It is directly up there in his post, which you personally responded to.
He also however, states that he "has to revise his personal opinion of such killers, and allow that a man who would kill women unrelated to himself might well drown himself… in the Thames or elsewhere".
So as you can plainly see, AP has taken a piece of profiling data, that in 1899 the mudrerer of a woman drowned himself after her murder, and applied that to this case. Whether he advocates Druitt or not based on this he has not said, but it is clear that that is the way this is going.
Again I will state that not once instance of profiling, taking the characteristics of any other serial murder and applying them to a suspect, has worked in this case. If you have actual evidence where your profiling, as we are hopefully now both clear that profiling is what is going on here, has actually led to something tangible, I would surely love to hear it.
In fact, from what you are saying you are proving my point. you only use profiling to show that someone is wrong, thereby negating its worth in this case.
You are absolutely right that i believe it can be solved, the same way that cancer can be cured and we will one day land a man on Mars. The people who believed polio would never be cured and we would never land a man on the moon appear to be Andersonians. I choose to be an optimist.
Someone committed these murders. You, Glenn, are happy in the fact that mere discusiion of this case is enough to get you by, Andersonian. I however, do not have that minute (my - newt) of an ambition.
I'm not saying that I will solve this case, but at least I'm trying, rather than sitting on the sidelines saying it can't be done. I'd rather be on my side every day of the week.
And as far as general insight, once again, please provide one tangible thing that the general knowledge you have gained by studying other serial murders has produced. I'm still waiting for that answer, versus the rhetoric in defense of general knowledge I keep receiving.
SJR |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3752
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
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Stan,
You are tiresome as always. Yes, you have said now that profiling has not helped solving any case -- I heard you the first time, and the second and the third... again, none of that is my issue.
"Someone committed these murders. You, Glenn, are happy in the fact that mere discusiion of this case is enough to get you by, Andersonian. I however, do not have that minute (my - newt) of an ambition."
No, not the discussions as such.
You are no academic historian and therefore it is obvious you can't see the advances with this case than using it as a pure detective hunt. I use the Ripper case as a study of crime history, murder, social and historical contexts, press history etc. I am interested in it from a historian's point of view and I believe I am not alone in that regards. If you want to play detective, fine by me, but some people actually have other agendas. And comparing with other similar incidents in history is one of the methods of a historian -- it is called 'comparative approach'. It is not necessarily used to solve mysteries but to gain more knowledge about an occurrence as a whole.
You clearly believe that knowledge is useless if it in practice can't solve things or produce direct answers. Your call, but I disagree.
I have gained vast knowledge of 19th and early 20th century living conditions, the lives of prostitutes and their relations to the police, social situations, local history, investigation methods, political climates etc. thanks to looking at other cases.
Will it help to solve an over 100 year old murder mystery? Probably not, but my interest lies in gaining more knowledge about the time and the context it happened in rather than try and solve the actual murder. Collecting information in the way AP does it, is one way to do it.
If you believe studies of the general context are without interest as a goal, then I certainly understand why you find people who are not playing Clouseau puzzling and that they are wasting their time. But that is your problem.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 19, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 225
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
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Glenn,
There is no reason to get insulting, by calling me tiresome. I understand why you think so, as do most others who can see past your specific line of BS.
It is interesting that you say you heard me the first time, and the second, yet have not produced one single piece of information on hopw it related to this case. Perhaps a general serial murder website would be more suited to your particular enjoyment.
Again, thank you for the insult. As you consider yourself a crime historian I would have to agree with you that I am clearly not similar to you, as your practicing methods of comparative analysis leads you right back to square one in this case. That other website may be the best idea for you, and mine are actually used with the goal of producing quantitative results, rather than generalizations.
As stated before, I'm interested in this case for the actual solving of it, not to discuss the grisly act of murder, and or unrelated murders. It is obvious that this is where we are on opposite sides of the pond again. To plainly put it, you like death, I like detective work. This is not an insult. This is from your own words. See - I analyzed what you said and told whoever is listening what you really mean, rather than the empty rhetoric you enjoy providing, which as usual leads us nowhere.
You are absolutely right, for once. Learning about living conditions and prostitute interaction with the police is fun, I guess, and could be considered historical, the same way hypothesizing about the first flies that mated is considered historical, but it will not help this case one iota.
General knowledge is good, as anyone who has read my second book will attest to, vowing that I both enjoy learning and writing about history, but this is not the "general knowledge" forum. This is the 'JTR' casebook. Perhaps why nothing gets done is because this site is inundated with useless information such as this, which never leads anywhere. Perhaps, as you claim to be a crime historian, you should be seeking another forum to impart your opinion on crime. This is merely a suggestion, that would best fit your obvious agenda.
It is howevere interesting that whenever someone disagrees with you, two things happen. One - you never answer their direct question regarding their dissention to your post; and TWO - you insult.
Perhaps Glenna is the better name, because you seem real sensitive when defending yourself, on a question or questions that you can obviously not answer.
SJR
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 699
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:26 pm: |
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Hello All
I don't mean to sound sanctimonious, or holier than thou-But woundn't the discussion of this subject be better served if we left personalities out of our discourse.
All The Best
Gary
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 226
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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Gary,
I couldn't agree more. if you'll scroll up you'll see where the insults began.
SJR |
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 227
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:35 pm: |
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Gary,
This is one of the major reasons why nothing gets accomplished. Because rather than answering a simple question which is specifically relevant to the case, some, including the person who began insulting in this discussion, chooses to skirt the issue. This is because his argument holds no water.
I was verbally attacked in a similar fashion once before Gary, and decided to attack back, as was my right. It was misinterpreted and people found it offensive. No mention was made of the slurring insults made toward me, only of the comebacks I employed. This is because the comebacks were far superior to the insults, and the victor generally gets the heat.
SJR
STAN |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 636
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
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Stan,
I must wonder why you keep coming back to the Casebook boards since you find what others consider the exciting diversity of posters to be a detriment to your stated goal of "solving" the case. You have your own agenda and your own methodology so why the need to hector anyone who takes a different approach?
As it is, you set up a false analogy between "curing" polio or putting men on the Moon and determining who was Jack the Ripper. When either of the first two goals was announced they were problems to be attacked in the present and future. Finding out who was the Ripper is, without restating the bloody obvious, a problem from the past from which we have only a few photographs, contemporary documents and a whole lot of misinformation. Barring the discovery of some new and unimpeachable and unambiguous artifacts or documents solving the case seems a dubious proposition.
Still, just the other day an Israeli physicist announced that time-travel is theoretically possible. His proposal involves a torus-shaped gravitational field as a start and gets murkier and murkier from there. In any case, not likely in our lifetimes.
As it is, we have not cured polio, but have only developed effective vaccines that provide an immunity to the disease in its most virulent form and I would think that any solution to the Ripper case will only be an hypothetis (however probable and rigidly tested). Still, if as you believe the case can be solved and you have some good leads in that direction then by all means enjoy your pursuit of the truth. Just don't denigrate those who seek other paths to enlightenment and enjoyment than your own.
And, somewhere along the way you just might also allow for an occasional error on your part. There are, after all, "more things in heaven and earth . . .than are dreamt of in your philosophy" -- and in mine and Glenn's and everyone else's if that makes you feel better.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3753
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:35 pm: |
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No, Stan, you were doing the insults here, by attacking AP for delivering information about another case. The subject on this thread got lost when you arrived.
As far as I am concerned, attacking people and displaying rude sarcasm is all you do on these Boards, which is also why you receive the answers you get. It is not up to you to suggest which Boards that would suit me or not, or which subjects that are acceptable to discuss.
I am not sensitive in this particular issue but you are always bugging people by constantly pressing them to the limit and continues to do so, when in fact your questions already have been answered several times. Your main issue here seems to be to only stir things up -- as usual. The fact that you don't understand the answers you get, is not my problem.
Let me just add, that I have no idea why the general context of 19th century crime history should have no place on a Board concerning the Ripper murders. I would think most researchers and authors on the subject would find that puzzling. After all, the Ripper murders occurred in this particular historical context. Or have I got it that wrong?
That does not mean that one can't discuss several isolated aspects and details of the case, like suspects, witness statements, victimology etc. -- and as you know I am not afraid to do that -- but solving it is another matter from where I sit. That you have another view on this is something I am already aware of, so nothing new under the sun.
You can't just cut out a case from its context, which is why I understand why AP puts forward these kinds of curiosities.
If one learns to understand the time in where an event takes place, then it certainly helps you get information that makes you understand the case. It is pretty elementary. If you want to play detective, the same thing applies. A detective needs to learn as much as possible about what types of crimes that are common in the area where the murder occurred, the nature and living conditions of the place and those who live there, the personal history of the victim etc. If you want to solve the case, context is everything, or you won't get far. A crime does not happen in a vacuum and in an old historical case the details and evidence at hand are generally not sufficient enough if yu want to do an analysis.
"To plainly put it, you like death, I like detective work. This is not an insult."
No, I do not like death. I just told you above what I like about the case. Death is not included in any of those points. And yes, it was an uncomfortable remark and implication.
But as Gary says, these personal battles are contra-productive.
I for once would like nothing more than to pull the discussion back where AP initially started it, if you only would allow AP to do so. If you don't like the subject of this thread, then disregard it and don't check it out -- that is what I do regarding threads I have no interest in. It is that simple. As you can see, I was not the only one here who found it enlightening and I would appreciate it if you could respect that.
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 228
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:39 pm: |
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Don,
It is good to see you coming to your friends (plural) aid again. They certainly need it when it comes to answering basic questions that someone has the audacity to ask.
Well the boards are certainly more entertaining with me here. They wouldn't have to be if those simple questions were answered and those who actually care about the case can possibly move forward.
Different approach? Dont you mean "pointless approach"? See that was my original question, which the person you are coming to defend refuses to answer, choosing insults over backing up his opinions with hard evidence. By the way, I see you also choose not to answer my question, yet are content with challenging my methodology.
This does not surprise me.
Well there is that negative attitude that seriously hampers the case. I believe the case can be solved. You are on the other side of the spectrum, where you are content with saying it can not be solved in your lifetime, as I assume your time travel analogy was supposed to stress, yet for some morbid reason still post here, interested in an unsolved murder you believe will not be solved. To me, from a personality standpoint, is particularly morbid, with all due respect.
Name the last person to have polio. It has been eradicated, whether by vaccine or genetic research, but it is gone. Nobody, to my knowledge, suffers from polio anymore, but you feel content arguing over semantics, rather than trying to answer the actual question posed. Since your post, not one person has gotten smarter on this particular topic. But do not feel bad, from Glenn's posts the same thing occurred, because he chose empty rhetoric over explanation.
I am not denigrating anyone. I merely asked a question, and the sensitive side came out of someone who speaks without the ability to back his opinions up. If studying murder is something you enjoy, thats fine, which is why I suggested a general crime website. As I understood it the goal of this website was to move forward on the 'JTR' murders.
I also understand that to move forward some steps back must be taken. This profiling is not a step back however. It is a step sideways. Sideways steps never help, but feel free discussing them all you like.
As far as errors, I make them all the time. When they are pointed out or challenged I have the dignity to explain myself and admit when I am wrong, rather than insult and refuse to back up the statements I made.
I really don't understand the point of your quote, which is weird because I'm writing my next book on philosophy and psychology, but again, it was a point blank question. And nobody answered it, only insulted, ran away, had a friend or protector or bodyguard come in to defend and still the question remains.
I am really sorry if my philosophy on this case upsets you. If you would be so kind as to show me the progress you've made employing your own philosophy, I will be more than happy to change my viewpoint. I think we both, and all reading know, that question won't be answered with anything tangible.
Thanks for joining the conversation. I'd say you contributed, but, with all due respect, you actually did not.
SJR |
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 229
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:54 pm: |
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Glenn,
Please show the boards where I "attacked" AP. I'd love to know. I challenged his opinion, but I'm sure since your opinion was similar to his, and you don't like me personally because I see you for who you are, and call you out on it, a person who can not and refuses to back up his statements with any tangible information, you saw it as a personal attack.
That is common with sensitive individuals.
Well since you said the question was already answered, and I have re-scanned the thread and did not find it, I still wonder why you have not re-iterated the answer, or pointed it out to me, as I am the uneducated non-historian here.
I will now ignore all your posts Glenn, until you have the courage and dignity to defend your statements and answer the simple question posed. It should be easy, since as you said it has already been answered.
I also implore all the posters to do the same and show precaution when reading Glenn's posts. It is obvious that these posts and opinions have no backing whatsoever and are simply an attempt to impress. When challenged on them, Glenn will fight back, with insults, rather than answers.
I use sarcasm because it is appropriate here. When people come off holier than thou spouting ideas, are challenged, and then refuse to back up their words, they should be subjected to sarcasm. They might never learn otherwise. I do think that most people know now, that your opinions are not based in anything tangible.
My last statement to you Sir, unless you choose to answer the question posed, which you say was already answered, is good luck on the bottom end of the case, enjoying the important elements, such as how "Nellie the hooker interacted with PC Walkabout", or "how a slum on Batty street strengthens the mind with knowledge". These all important elements of approximately 5 to 7 unsolved murders are incredibly critical to understanding the case.
I say good luck because you will need it
SJR |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3755
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:08 pm: |
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Well, Stan, I am afraid I can't answer you any better and more thoroughly than I already have. I have tried now in three posts, but whatever I write, it does not seem to meet your expectations.
And why is studying a murder case from a historical context point of view more morbid than trying to play detective? I admit, I don't get it.
I for my part would cherish if you ignored my posts. Believe me -- nothing would make me happier.
Good luck to you as well; believe it or not -- I have the deepest respect for your approach on the case; you are after all not alone in trying to solve it and it is something that brings joy and meaning to a lot of people. I just wish you could respect those who are interested in it for other reasons.
All the best from a 'sensitive individual'
(Message edited by Glenna on July 19, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3756
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
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AP,
Although you may have been discouraged by now, but got any more info?
All the best
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 230
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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To all,
This is a call out to anyone for help. Please assist me in finding two things.
A) Where I insulted AP in this thread to start someone's insults?
AND
B) Where my original question was actually answered? For those that would like clarification on what that question was, here it is again:
I ASK TO BE SHOWN ANY SINGLE SOLITARY INSTANCE WHERE PROFILING OF ANOTHER CASE HAS BEEN SUCCESFFULLY APPLIED TO THE 'JTR' MURDERS WITH A BENEFICAL OUTCOME?
Thank you for any that try, because I did learn how to read back when I was 2, and for the life of me I can't seem to find either one.
SJR |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3757
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
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None as far as I know. Not if we are talking what is necessary for the actual solution -- it can give us additional information, though. But hardly help us solve it, and profiling in itself seldom 'solves' cases on its own anyway. Happy?
I just don't get why you asked me that question, because I've never even implied that profiling has been successfully applied to this case...
I don't see studying another case as 'profiling' -- calling that profiling is your on interpretation. Profiling consists of certain outlined methods and theories one not necessarily have to use while studying other cases. Profiling is an attempt to read the crime scenes and try to work out the suspect's personality type.
Maybe that is what AP tried to do, I don't know, but why ask me?
This has nothing to do with why I am interested in other cases in the JtR context -- at least not the sole reason. AP:s exercises has other values to me.
Now, what price do I win?
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 19, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 637
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
|
Stan,
There really is no point in responding to your last post to me because you seem to lack an understanding of what constitutes civil discourse.
However, one thing you said does deserve an answer. The World Health Organization says "There is no cure for polio, it can only be prevented through immunization." And even then there is a problem because some individuals are resistant to the vaccine. As it is, polio remains a serious health problem throughout central Africa and parts of the Indian sub-continent. And for those poor individuals who still get polio (or those who contracted it before the vaccines were available) there is no "cure;" their symptoms persist until death.
My point in mentioning that there is no cure for viral diseases (like polio and most cancers) was more than just word-playing. Just as there is no cure I don't think it likely we will solve the Ripper murders in the sense that current or future crimes can be solved. We can prevent polio and we may yet get a valid explanation of what happened in Whitechapel in the fall of 1888, but that's all.
And if you have gotten this far in my post, please do me a favor and kindly ignore all my future posts as well. I shall certainly ignore yours.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program -- if all these disagreeable digressions haven't left AP awash in Spanish brandy.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 231
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
|
Glenn,
I can see why my question may have been misleading to you, since I only posted it at least 4 times, and you commented on 3 of them.
So now that you have answered the question correctly - NONE - what is the benefit of profiling, as AP obviously intends to use it to directly affect his opinions on the case?
My other objections, listed in a post to AP about the consequences of such a maneuver, remain standing firm to refute the application of profiling as a viable technique in these specific murders.
That was the discussion I wanted to get into, before you so rudely jumped in and stated:
Here we go again. Who mentioned profiling?
When it was so obvious that AP did, and was going to attempt to use it to alter his opinions on the case. My further objections are addressed in a post on the ramifications of employing profiling, which does not work in this murder case.
You really jumped in though because you do not like me, and decided to try and turn a serious discussion, of which you of course sided against me, and turn it into an insult fest, hoping that I would do what I did to another poster when he questioned my crfedibility.
I, instead, chose to challenge you on your opinions, and if it really took you over 15 posts to understand my true question, delivered on post 5 of this thread, perhaps your lack of backing up your opinions is the least of your troubles.
SJR |
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 232
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:04 pm: |
|
Don,
One final question before you ignore me.
Have you ever contributed anything remotely beneficial to this case?
I ask because in studying this case, and not googling the WHO website which everyone knows you just did, I have never seen one relevant productive post come from you.
Your main job here is to massage the posters you like, and challenge the posters you don't on anything and everything, including a semantic discussion on polio which was used as an analogy. Of course the analogy was directed to another poster, but he happens to be part of that massage club.
So please do ignore my posts. We wouldn't want you to actually learn anything case related or important.
And thanks for joining in.
SJR |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3758
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
|
Stan,
I thought you had intended to ignore my posts?
I did understand your question the first time, but I tried to explain to you why that question is not relevant to ask ME! You just didn't get the message.
As for that 'other poster', I have no idea what or who you're talking about. I am not interested in Board intrigues -- if you get into trouble, it is your business.
The reason I butted in, was because, if you feel the subject of the thread was irrelevant for the case in your eyes, why bother to visit it? After all, I visited this thread before you did.
Yes, AP might have used it for the purpose of profiling, but my point was that the information he and others put forward in this direction can be used regardless of profiling. Why is it so problematic to accept other people's approaches? Is profiling forbidden to use just because you don't approve of it? I don't believe in it either that much, but it is quite OK as far as I am concerned if others want to apply it.
If you don't mind, I would like to get back to the regular subject of this thread.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 19, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3759
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
|
AP,
Nest time you visit this thread -- if you dare -- please continue delivering the information you have. At least some of us are interested.
Let's hope this little interesting but a tad tedious exercise didn't make you empty the bottle of Spanish brandy.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on July 19, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 233
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
|
Glenn,
Once again you seem not to be able to read and comprehend my posts.
I stated, clearly, that I would ignore all your future posts unless you chose to answer my question. Since you answered my question, that would actually negate my ign oring all your future posts. The words, in fact, are designed to convey a thought.
As far as "getting into trouble" - I'm not a three year old trying to steal a cookie. Nobody is in trouble. I stepped away from the boards because of the nonsensical sidestepping that occurs in discussing this case. I came back because I have a deep passion for solving it. I am not in the least bit interested in the habits of some random hooker walking the streets talking to a PC. that seems to be your thing.
So your approach is to use the information you, or should I say others, gather from the Seham murder case, and not actually apply them to the 'JTR' murders? Sounds like a good plan.
And once again you miss the point completely. Profiling has never benn applied to this case with any beneficial outcomes. it therefore does not shock me in the least that you don;t mind anyone else using it, because this keeps the case sideways, which is obviously how you like it,gathered from your own thoughts on the case.
SJR |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3760
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:36 pm: |
|
"I stated, clearly, that I would ignore all your future posts unless you chose to answer my question. Since you answered my question, that would actually negate my ignoring all your future posts."
Aw rats... 
I knew it was too good to be true.
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
|
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 234
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
|
AP,
Please come back and have an intelligent productive discussion regarding the use of profiling techniques as they apply to this case. I would be more than happy to discuss this with you, as I tried, before I was verbally attacked by someone who refuses to back up his statements with actual information.
I would love to discuss this matter with you AP, as I consider you a valuable researcher. Dissenting opinions are important, yet only when the parties can back up what they say, and do not just say things to impress the newbies coming to the boards.
SJR |
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
|
Glenn,
Reading is fundamental.
See if you apply yourself the answers are right there.
SJR |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4704
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:55 am: |
|
Hi Gary
Good to see you. I emailed you a couple of days ago.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2311
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
|
By god and by all things holy, there I was having a nice long sleep when some Ripposaur blew me out of the bed with a massive and untimely fart.
It is comforting to be able to sleep the sleep of drunken rotten bastards thoroughly caroused on Caribbean rum; and then awaken to find that good folk still defend good common sense.
Thank you, those good folk.
In all probability I would say that I am the greatest critic of criminal profiling on this rude planet; and barely have time to consider the rancid subject, so abhorrent do I find the whole concept.
I was talking about my personal opinion in regard to such cases, which of course does not count for a jot.
Personally I do very much enjoy ripping out other murder cases from the LVP, as I believe they have much to teach us of the period in question.
I am always willing to learn.
Just because I do not take Druitt as a serious suspect for the role of Jack the Ripper, does not mean that I can’t help those who do… this doesn’t alter my opinion.
Just means that I like to be helpful and distribute information that might help them.
These days I live in an information world, it is my super highway.
Jump on board or get left behind.
Thanks again for all the kind words. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 913
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
|
Back to a question I posed way, way, way above:
Is there any knowledge of whether the perpetrator of this crime had any previous history of violence?
Andy S. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2312
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
|
Not yet, Andy, but by the way he accomplished the crime, offering and giving the murdered girl a 'pound' - a lot of money in the LVP - to come along with him, and then telling the girl's friend that he was related to her, uncle or cousin, I can't remember now... does seem to imply some sort of previous experience in this regard.
Unfortunately I haven't had the time today to find out more about the case, but I do suspect that there is no more to find.
Hope not. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2220
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
|
Do you know what AP that was what I would call a rather slippery reply to Stan! |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 700
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 7:59 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
My e-mail has changed since it was last posted on the boards. My daughter crashed the computer, but she is only 12 and I certainly cannot blame her for having done that particular act. Bless her heart.
I will get you my new e-mail as soon as I can-I have to go to Canada to see my father who may not have much time left.
Many thanks for thinking of me.
AP
I know you are not a fan of profiling. As I understand your point you were speaking to the "Druidists" and I didn't consider you to be endorsing profiling. I think it has a place in the study of sexual serial killers. However, we have to recognize the limitations on the "Ripper" case due to the time that has passed.
I don't want anyone to misconstrue the point I was trying to make-Many of the most knowledgeable and informed people on the JTR case present their opinions on these boards. I have respect for each and every one of these individuals views and feel they are all to be worth reading and considering.
All The Best
Gary |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 639
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:04 pm: |
|
Gary,
More off-subject posting, but then I don't know where else to put this: The best to you and your dad at this obvious time of trial.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
|
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 701
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:04 pm: |
|
PS-
As I recall the sexual serial killer known as Jack The Stripper back in the sixties is believed to have drowned himself, when he felt the noose was tightening and the police were about to break the case.
Just an observation.
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 702
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |
|
Thanks Donald
I appreciate that very much.
All The Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4708
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
|
Gary, I too send you and your dad my best wishes.
Robert |
Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
|
Natalie,
I thought so too.
Gary,
I also think that peoples opinions are valuable. Yet there is a finite issue here. I, for one, have been lambasted on these boards when I have posed my opinions, because it is somewhat out of the norm, and even when I show the actual sources that led me to my opinions it is never enough. It is this that has driven such valuable researchers like Martin Fido, Stewart Evans and Donald Rumbelow away.
These authors know important information that many of us do not, but because certain people refuse to accept their opinion based upon certain evidence, they have chosen to not help the laypersons. I agree with their decision.
The ironic fact in all this is that the people who attack opinion the most are generally those who cannot back up their own opinion, yet rather try to distract and pull a rabbit out of a hat when called on something.
Opinions are good, but limitations are necessary. We wouldn't want someone just coming on the boards and proclaiming Lewis Carroll was 'JTR'. There has to be more to their statement, and they should, if they choose to post on a public forum, be forced to back up their statements with some theory, evidence or even the remotest form of material that is cohesive.
They also have the option not to defend their point blank statements, yet no one will take them seriously. That is the punishment they deserve for entering a public forum, expounding their opinion, and then when asked about it not being able to back up their obvious blowharded statement.
the alternative is anyone can say anything at any time. There would be an abundance of information and those who seriously wish to study this murder case would be lost in contradictory information. There has to be a system of checks and balances. As much fun as it is to discuss cake recipes and football (soccer) teams, it was my understanding that this site was dedicated to the sharing of information on the 'JTR' murders.
I hold myself to these standards, which is why I can back up my opinions, as I did throughout this post, claiming that at no point in the last 117 years has criminal profiling made any viable contribution to this case, until finally the person arguing with me realized he was dead wrong, and had even gotten the question wrong, despite it being posed 5 times.
I am no stick in the mud, fuddy duddy, or whatever you crazy kids are calling it nowadays. I am however consistent, and feel that if I, along with Stewart Evans, Martin Fido and others have to be held to some standard, then everyone else should be held to that standard also.
As far as profiling other serial murderers, to learn more about this case, once again i ask the question: show me one solid piece of productive evidence, information or material that has been applied to this case, which any researcher has gained from learning the psychology of the Boston Strangler, or any other serial murderer. There is no point in looking, it does not exist.
Gary,
I'm not sure what is going on. I live in the US. But best wishes if needed.
SJR |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 703
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
|
Hi Stan
I respect that you can be blunt in expressing your opinions. I have found that you have to wade through a lot of the bad to get to the useful information and you mention some of the authors' I have in mind.
I have a very extensive collection of books on JTR that includes a number of old and/or rare and valuable books in a monetary and historical sense. That dosn't mean they have intrinsic value in solving the case or even in reaching a firm basis for further research.
Most of us have had the experience of wanting to laugh out loud at some of the ways in which certain writers have butchered the basic facts and drawn conclusions that just don't stand up to logical inquiry.
I tend to be circumspect and somewhat abstract in expressing my views and I have been told that Legal training and practicing law for a good number of years tend to make you think that way to avoid making mistakes in front of a Judge, whom, if he is worth his salt knows all aspects of the case before it it is heard. I have seen lawyers lose all credibility in cases in which they have failed to properly research the facts.
I do know that no matter how exasperated you may get at others behaviour or method of expressing his or her beliefs, lashing out does little good.
All The Best
Gary
You can appreciate that, obviously this is directed at more than just you in particular.
I have been quilty of the very same thing I am mentioning myself. At times when others disagreed with something I thought made perfect sense I can look back and in retrospect I realize that I may have been blathering.
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Stan Russo
Inspector
Username: Stan
Post Number: 237
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
|
Gary,
I can respect the history of the case. It is of great intrinsic value, such as the understanding we now know that Melville MacNaghten was basically a boob, making such ridiculous errors on his personal suspect as his age and his actual first name.
This started out as a question to AP, who is not the first to invoke what I believe to be the useless methodology of applying criminal profiling to this murder case.
What you have missed Gary is that it is the other way around. I posed a question and had to deal with unwarranted ridicule for it, from a person who simply does not like me personally. The reasons for his dislike are known, as I have stated them while speaking directly to him in posts. He does not bother me, as I understand him.
What does bother me is that posters such as yourself see my defending myself as an attack. This never seems to change, which actually works perfectly with this case because quite frankly there has not been one major development in this case since the re-discovery of Tumblety. So in the last 13 years, especially the last 8, the case has become so stagnant that it is acceptible and actually encouraged that alternative sideways methodologies, such as profiling, now be employed. This case has turned into a sideshow, for people to come and make friends, and to discuss crime in general. That's all well and good, but remember it is incredibly hypocritical to say things like "poor old Sickert" and "poor old Gull", while "poor old Annie Chapman" and "poor old Elizabeth Stride" continue to rot in their graves while people make fun of those who actually try to move forward, considering them crazy.
There is a school of thought that anyone who enjoys studying serial murder, such as this case, armed with the opinion that the murders they study can not be solved could be considered crazy. I'm not saying that they are, because to each their own, but the hypocrisy is ludicris.
If I come off to blunt for some then should ignore my posts and read the informative posts about the Manchester United score or the thread on whether Mary Kelly was 'JTR'. If their personal goal is to meet people, chat about stuff and become a glossary on useless information then they really should ignore my posts.
If someone wants to learn about the case, and get an opinion from someone who does not just pull things out of the air for the mere sake of trying to impress newbies, then read my posts. I don't claim to know it all, but I will not waste my time and the time of those who seriously want to learn about this case with useless drivel such as profiling. For the past two days it has been discussed more than anything on the boards and not one person has cited the one time where it actually applied to this case.
I am blunt, because I do care. Why i care anymore I don't know, but I set out to solve this case and just because I haven't done it yet does not mean that I will now start studying other cases of death.
SJR |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4711
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 4:38 am: |
|
Hi Gary
When you send me your email address (in your own time) send it to roblinford@gmail.com because my email address has also changed, but I don't know how to change my address on Casebook.
Robert |
|
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