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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2100
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 1:44 pm: | 
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In the penultimate Sun article about Thomas Cutbush which I recently transcribed, there were included a number of letters which the newspaper had received. One of these read as follows:
ANOTHER YOUNG MAN
Mr. T J Crotty writes from Ramsgate:-
I read with amazement your account of Jack the Ripper. I had a young man about 27, he came in October, 1890, to us and told me and my wife that he was an ex-medical from the London, but had evidently led a very fast life. He had two cabmen who drove him about at night and at last he got a revolver to shoot me, and I went to his doctor. He was a clergyman's son, and my wife heard him say that he had done something to a woman and she would not live. He treated three or four patients in my house, and subsequent conduct points to him as being the man. He is tall, with dark moustache, and always out at night.
Whether we are supposed to assume that Mr. Crotty believed that his lodger was Thomas Cutbush is not made plain. However the heading "Another Young Man" makes this unlikely.
As I live in Ramsgate and the road in question is only five minutes walk away I have done some background work on this letter. There was, as far as I am able to trace, only one T.J. Crotty who could be identified with this man. He was one Thomas John Crotty, a tailor, born in 1842 and died in 1900. His wife was Julia J Crotty, born circa 1837 and died 1906. I have not been able to trace birth records for either but their deaths were registered as follows:
Crotty, Thomas John
September 1900
Age at death 58
Kensington Vol 1a Page 66
Crotty, Julia
June 1906
Age at death 69
Westminster Vol 1a page 312
Neither have I been able to trace a definite date for their marriage - all I can say at this stage is that it must have occurred between 1871 and 1881.
The definite census sightings of Thomas and Julia are as follows:
1861:
Castle Road East, Cavendish Square, Marylebone
Head: Thomas Crotty aged 45 born Clare, Ireland - Tailor
Wife: Katherine Crotty aged 50 born Clare, Ireland
Children:
Thomas aged 18 born Marylebone - Tailor
Michael aged 17 born Marylebone - Lithographic
1871:
52 Union Street, Portsmouth
Lodger: Thomas Crotty (Unmarried)aged 29 born London - Tailor's foreman
(Head of household is James Jeffery aged 46, a Naval pensioner)
1881:
70 Talbot Road, Marylebone
Head: Thomas John Crotty aged 39 born England - Tailor
Wife: Julia J Crotty aged 50 born Ireland
1891:
1 Sutherland Place, Paddington
Head: Thomas J Crotty aged 48 born Castle Street E, Marylebone - Foreman tailor
Wife: Julia J Crotty aged 62 born Tipperary, Ireland - Lodging house keeper
By 1901, Thomas was dead, so we would expect Julia to be listed as widowed. The only record that could apply to her is as follows:
1901:
100 Wardour Street, St Anne Soho
Head: Julia Crotty (Widow) aged 64 born Strand, London - Tailoress
Children:
Charles aged 29 born Marylebone - Ironmonger's assistant
Walter aged 26 born St James - Copperplate printer
Julia aged 24 born St James - Tailoress
Nephew:
Robert Walker aged 26 born St Pancras - Ward Room Steward (HMS Galatea)
But this is problematic in three respects:
1) The anomalous age (only 2 years greater than in 1891)
2) the place of birth - London, not Ireland
3) the list of children not previously mentioned.
The main question however, is - what possible connection could there be between Thomas Crotty and Ramsgate? None of the census information gives any indication of a connection. The nearest available census to the time when the letter was written (1894) is 1891, at which time Crotty and his wife were living in Paddington. However, a search of the Ramsgate census for 1891 under the name of Crotty reveals two young boys listed as Stepchildren. The household details are as follows:
52 Royal Road, Ramsgate, Kent
Head: John A Harvey aged 37 born Hinstock, Shropshire - Ironmonger's assistant
Wife: {Illegible} Harvey aged 39 born Hendon, Middlesex
Stepsons:
William Crotty aged 13 (?) born South Kensington
Harry Crotty aged 10 born St Helier, Jersey
I have been able to trace the birth record of the older of these two boys:
Crotty, William Ernest
March 1878
Kensington Vol 1a page 198
Now, the crucial question is what relation, if any, were these two boys to Thomas John Crotty, the assumed writer of the letter? If they were John Harvey's stepsons, then, logically, they must have been the sons by birth of his wife (name unfortunately illegible) by a previous marriage. The assumption would be that this unnamed woman had been married to Thomas Crotty prior to 1881 (by which time he was definitely married to Julia) and had two sons by him. But I must stress that I have found no documentary proof of this as yet. Again it would seem that that after the 1891 census Thomas Crotty, for whatever reason, moved to Ramsgate for a period unknown, presumably to be with his sons.
The house in question, 52 Royal Road, is, fortunately still in existence and I walked past it only today. It is a modest, two storey yellow brick terraced house with a basement. I will attempt to get a photo of it and post it here.
Hope this is of interest
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on June 24, 2005) |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 2:13 pm: |
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Chris
That's an interesting variation on the "Lodger" story.
If you have the right man (which seems likely), and the lodger in question came to him in October 1890, wouldn't he be likely to be there at the 1891 census? Does the census return list their lodgers?
Chris Phillips
PS It's a very unusual name - by a strange coincidence one of the candidates in the delayed Parliamentary election in South Staffs, held yesterday, is named Joanne Crotty.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2229
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
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Chris
I noted this too at the time, although I am still reading and following up the earlier reports from the Sun.
But I have to say that there was something very familiar to me in this story... like I have seen it before, not sure though.
Ramsgate was Cutbush territory though. Justice of the Peace and all that. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2101
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 4:55 pm: |
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Hi AP
Good point about the JP
Chris P
There are no lodgers listed in the 52 Royal Road listing - just Harvey and his wife and the two "stepsons". I just wish I could make some sense of the wife's name. I have found Harvey in 1881 but he was not married by that time.
Here is the entry:
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2104
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
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Chris,
Could these youngsters living with the Harvey"s be their "wards" or foster children? The Harveys may be helping out their extended family-nephews
related to Mr Crotty----their ages would suggest they were the grandchildren or his brother"s grandchildren maybe.
My own father lived in an extended family set up like this in New Brighton,Merseyside.He lived with HIS grandmother and her 2nd husband[the first died of typhoid] and with My grandmother and her husband
and my grandmother"s sister and her husband and her first child .This state of affairs went on
for six years until his aunt and her growing family moved to Wales.
I still see these cousins of my father each time I go to Wales.
Such extended living was quite common then I believe.
Thanks Chris, for this intriguing work.
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4584
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Chris, this might explain the Harvey side of the business :
England and Wales, Civil Registration Index: 1837-1983
Viewing records 1-6 of 6 matches
About this database
A collection of indexes to Birth, Marriage, and Death records for England and Wales, between 1837 and 1983. More information below
« Global Search Results
Name Year Quarter Record Type District County
CRATTY, Jane
1883 March Marriages Hungerford Berkshire Hampshire Wiltshire
CROTTY, Jane
1883 March Marriages Hungerford Berkshire Hampshire Wiltshire
HARVEY, John Alfred
1883 March Marriages Hungerford Berkshire Hampshire Wiltshire
LEWIS, Henry Ernest
1883 March Marriages Hungerford Berkshire Hampshire Wiltshire
Marlen, Mary Jane
1883 March Marriages Hungerford Berkshire Hampshire Wiltshire
Martin, Mary Jane
1883 March Marriages Hungerford Berkshire Hampshire Wiltshire
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2102
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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Further to John A Harvey, it looks as though in 1891 should have been 31, not 37.
In 1881 he is listed lodging at 3 Raphael Street, Westminster. He was at that time unmarried, and his details are given as:
John A Harvey aged 21 born Hinstock, Shropshire - Ironmonger's assistant.
By 1901 he appears to have returned to Hinstock and is listing boarding at Lockley Wood, Hinstock. He is listed as unmarried and his details are given as:
John A Harvey aged 41 born Hinstock - Manure agent
Going back to the 1861 census, we find his name was John Alfred Harvey, son of John and Catherine Harvey of Hinstock.
In fact, his birth was registered in Staffordshire, as follows:
March 1860
Harvey, John Alfred
Uttoxeter, Staffordshire
Volume 6b Page 282
His marriage must have occurred between 1881 and 1891. The marriage took place at Hungerford in the first quarter of 1883 and the parties are listed as:
Harvey, John Alfred and
Crotty, Jane
(Volume 2c Page 421)
So the illegible entry for Ramsgate in 1891 should read "Jane Harvey" as wife.
The question now is who is this Jane Crotty and what relation was she to T J Crotty???
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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Hi Robert
Our messages crossed in cyberspace!!!
Many thanks for that
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2104
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
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Hungerford, by the way, is in Berkshire |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4585
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Hi Chris
I think this is the first marriage :
England and Wales, Civil Registration Index: 1837-1983
Viewing records 1-4 of 4 matches
About this database
A collection of indexes to Birth, Marriage, and Death records for England and Wales, between 1837 and 1983. More information below
« Global Search Results
Name Year Quarter Record Type District County
CROTTY, Michael Joseph
1875 June Marriages Hendon Greater London Middlesex
LAMBERT, John
1875 June Marriages Hendon Greater London Middlesex
Smith, Emily
1875 June Marriages Hendon Greater London Middlesex
WREFORD, Jane
1875 June Marriages Hendon Greater London Middlesex
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4586
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
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Chris, it looks to me as though Michael Crotty, the natural father of William and Harry, was the brother of the Thomas Crotty who wrote the letter. Maybe Thomas was in Ramsgate because of his nephews.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1099
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Chris
Thanks, but shouldn't the lodger have been with T. J. Crotty, in Sutherland Place, Paddington, in 1891 - not with the Harveys in Ramsgate? Or have I somehow got hold of the wrong end of the stick?
(I think what happened with the illegible census entry is that the wife was initially missed out for some reason. So the 2nd and 3rd lines of the household originally showed William Crotty and Harry Crotty. I think the surname "Crotty" is visible under Jane's surname "Harvey", and William's age 13 has been written in the male ages column, and then crossed out. I think "William" has also been written on top of "Harry".)
Chris Phillips
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2105
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:47 am: |
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Robert
I think you may well be right and TJ may have gone to Ramsgate to visit his sister in law and nephews, if he was Michael's brother.
Michael J appears to have come to a sad and early end. He died as a pauper in the Cardiff Workhouse infirmary.
Chris P
I see your point. You are suggesting, I think, that TJ may only have written the letter while on a visit to Ramsgate, but when he said the young man came to them, he meant his own London address. I think that is entirely possible.
Thanks guys
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4587
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
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Hi Chris
Well I must have gone wrong somewhere, because the Michael Joseph who died in Cardiff lived till 1891, didn't he? But then his wife couldn't have re-married in 1883.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1100
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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Chris
If "an ex-medical from the London" is just an error from "from London", it sounds unlikely that he was lodging with the Crottys in London.
But could it be a reference to The London Hospital? If so, and if he is shown in the 1891 census, it probably wouldn't be too hard to check this and the statement that he was a clergyman's son.
Chris Phillips
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2106
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
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Hi Robert
I see your point. if they married in 1875 I suppose they could have been divorced by 1883 but The Michael J listed in Cardiff Infirmary is described as married.
Chris P
The letter definitely says "the London" which I took to mean the London Hospital. A copy of the letter is below.
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4588
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
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Hi Chris
I searched 1880-82 for Michael's death, without success. I'm wondering whether he could have died in Jersey? There were a few Crotties in the Channel Is.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4589
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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Chris, scrub that, because Michael Crotty, lithographic draughtsman, declined to die, and was living in Marylebone with wife Jane (born Devon) in 1891.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 2:40 pm: |
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Then there is of course the much researched connection to 'the' London Hospital via the Flood & Cutbush clan.
Not only was the family a major charitable supporter of the London Hospital - with members of the family sitting on the governing committee - it is entirely possible that the land the London Hospital was built on was owned by the Flood & Cutbush clan. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2701
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
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Hate to say it because I dont have a great deal to say here apart from the fact that I taught one Jason CROTTY in 1987-9 who was, a great child , the son of a John CROTTY,,,,,,incidently a GREAT artist!!!!! (Jason that is!)
When I read this the name sprang to mind!! Thats all!!!!
Suzix |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4593
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Mr Chips. 
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2702
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
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Seriously though Robert! Jason was ONE OF THOSE KIDS when (Mrs) Chips was teaching and shall we say was an ART Kid 100%!!!!!! Last heard of at Art College!!! and doing well!!! Odd tho to hear that name again after some time.....spooky!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2704
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
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The name was most definately CROTTY not Crottie or anything else.......
A great memory here............Must try to get in touch with him and see what's what with the background.........great
Suzi |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2200
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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I promised some pics of Royal Road and the house where Mr Crotty's lodger (Cutbush or another) would have resided as the house is still there.
First, apologies for the delay - I have not been on the boards for some time as life has been very eventful (not entirely in a good way) the last few weeks.
Second, apologies for the quality as my camera is really on the blink and I am getting a new one asap!!!
But hope they are of interest
Royal Road!
General view of the terrace where Crotty lived, with the church spire in the background
The terrace in Royal Road. The Crotty house is second from left with the white arched surround to the front door.
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5075
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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Chris, thanks for those. Nothing wrong with the quality as far as I can see.
Hope everything's OK.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2482
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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Thanks Chris,
Fine pics and very typical of that period.
Best Natalie |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 165
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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Chris Scott
Hi Chris,
Your pictures are certainly of interest and the quality is not lacking in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing them with us.
regards
Julie
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Wendy Starr
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 9:10 am: |
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This is probably a wild goose chase. I am not actually interested in Jack the Ripper, but in my own research into something different have a JT (not TJ) Crotty living at 24 Augusta Road, Ramsgate in 1895. Thought I would post because it is an unusual name. I have no more info ...sorry....Wendy, Ramsgate |
Julia Crotty
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Hey, I'm not entirely aware of the story that is being followed here, but I came across this message board after I Googled my name. It is just interesting to me since my name is Julia Crotty, and I have a long line of grandfathers that were named Thomas Crotty. We originated from Ireland. I noticed in one of the messages that it was noted that one of the Thomas Crotty's had named their son Thomas as well. I know that my grandfather, great grandfather, and probably my great-great grandfather were all named Thomas. My nephew's middle name is Thomas, after my grandfathers. Also, I'm not sure where Ramsgate is located as I was born and raised in America (my parents moved here from the UK), but, my family are located in West Yorkshire. Hey, this may or may not be my family but, it sure is interesting that so many of the names match up with people I am related to. And the fact that people are doing so much hunting about the people is kind of neat too. So, what exactly is the story then? Are you trying to trace the comings and goings of Jack the Ripper and it led you to Thomas Crotty? Is he connected any other way then possibly giving Jack the Ripper a room? I'm interested to see what this is all about. |
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