|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1725
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 4:43 pm: | 
|
Thanks Robert
It is wise to remember that if TTC had stayed in London with his first wife, Kate Hayne, he would have eventually inherited a massive fortune; and this does lead me to believe that he fled England for New Zealand for reasons as yet not known to us… perhaps he was a bastard?
With no legal right to the inheritance?
Perhaps he had already began his bigamist career at the tender age of twenty-one?
Perhaps he had thrown someone down the stairs?
This will come up eventually.
I do feel that the Stoddarts of New Zealand were far more well-heeled than previously thought; they were amongst the original pioneer families, and certainly had shipping interests particular to the convict trade - I have found a web-site with detailed information on this but am still reading it - my gut feeling is that TTC did very well with that marriage to Agnes Ingles in 1867.
I do admit to being slow with the uptake on Frances Augusta, but will rectify that asap.
Meanwhile I think this chap I’ve found here is perhaps the founder father of all this mess, the clerk at the tower:
‘Before you received the bag, did you know you were going to receive a load? A. I think not - there was generally some time between one load and another - I know of another instance where a separate bag was brought, which Mr. Mayhew has a receipt for, that was sent by the storekeeper - this is the receipt which was had for it - Mr. Taylor is store-keeper - I was made acquainted with this sack before it was delivered - I had a knowledge of that bag coming before it was delivered, from an order from Mr. Taylor, the store-keeper - that was another transaction, for which a separate receipt was given - that was not part of any load that was delivered - it was a distinct thing. (Receipt read.) "Old Acts of Parliament belonging to William Parish, Esq., late commissioner, - of cwt. paid to the store-keeper. William Johnson." Those were old Acts of Parliament - quite a separate transaction to the Excise papers - I believe Hartrup brought that sack - on the 13th of May I went to the Excise office about some papers - I saw Mr. Powell in Hartrup's presence - I told Mr. Powell we should be glad to receive a load of paper on Thursday, the 15th, and they were to be got ready to be delivered that morning - I had not employed any body on the 14th to receive any part of that paper for me - about a fortnight before that, Harris had assisted in bringing a load home - Hartrup knew of my being engaged in purchasing papers - he has assisted in weighing it - I should think he knew the whole process well - neither Hartrup nor Harris had any commission from me to send or bring any paper on the 14th - the paper was to be brought down to the Excise office on Tower-hill, weighed, put into a van, and brought home - I was to send the van for it - that is always the way the business is conducted - they employ persons to weigh it, and I find the van and take it away at my own expense - I said nothing to Powell in Hartrup's presence, except that I should be glad to receive about a ton and half on Thursday morning, if it could be got ready - Hartrup was in the room.
COURT. Q. Did you, on any occasion, employ Hartrup to do any thing with the paper to be delivered to you? A. Nothing; only to get it down from the rooms it was in, ready to be weighed.
MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. Was Hartrup employed by you or by the Excise? A. He was to be paid by us for getting the papers down stairs - he is employed by the Excise generally - it was to be brought from the rooms where it was deposited up stairs, - I am not in the habit of going up the stairs, but it came from rooms above.
Cross-examined by MR. PHILLIPS. Q. You have mentioned a second instance of some irregularity in the delivery of waste papers from the Excise - my friend asks if they were not old Acts of Parliament? whatever they were, did you pay for them to the Excise as waste paper? A. To the store-keeper - I did not on account of the Excise - I paid the store-keeper, but had a separate receipt, and not from the Excise - I did not intend the money for that to go to the Excise - it was paper belonging to one of the commissioners - I do not know him - my sister knows very little of the transactions.
See originalQ. Do you remember the sack that came by mistake? A. The one brought by Harris, I remember it being brought to our house - we did not expect that sack, but afterwards gave notice to the excise of the receipt - they recognised it, and received payment from me - I had no notice of the sack originally - it was a sack of waste paper - Harris brought it - Mr. Powell was the gentleman I accounted to - Mr. Taylor is a clerk in the store-office - he sold me the Acts of Parliament.’
I wish I could sell the Acts of Parliament so easily.
One could give up writing then. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4069
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
|
AP, I'm a bit confused about this Taylor fellow. How does he fit in?
Interesting that it was acts of Parliament that were for sale - normally it's MPs.
One minor oddity I've found with Uncle Charles is that he seems to have been in charge of the lost property, whatever his rank at the time. It's either "Apply Chief Inspector Cutbush" or "Apply Supt Cutbush." No records of anyone enquiring after a kidney though.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1726
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
|
Sorry Robert
as ever I never explain myself.
From one of the wills you posted I just seemed to remember a 'Thomas Taylor', store keeper and clerk in the Tower, and I thought this might be the chap.
Yes, you are right about uncle Charles and his odd departments, he appeared to have been in charge of everything from riots in Trafalgar Square to throwing nosy journalists and radical activists out of the Yard; lodging houses, police beats, pensions, and of course the murder of Martha Tabram.
Any more news of his pension records yet?
Still missing, presumed dead?
Uncle Charles seemed to have had a fondness for lost gems and expensive watches, for that was when it was advertised to apply to him for their recovery, perhaps him and old uncle Colicitt - the Jewish jeweller and gold merchant with a dubious bun-eating son who had a penchant for stabbing wimmen - were drinking partners at the club?
I might have had too much brandy. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
|
Sorry Neale
But you said it, so here are a couple of other files that I would like looked at:
Software: Marine Births, Deaths and Marriages: Victoria 1853-1920
This title is only available at the following location(s):
Genealogy Centre at workstation 178
Melbourne General Cemetery: Index and Transcriptions of Monumental Inscriptions to 1989.
Title: Melbourne General Cemetery: Index and Transcriptions of Monumental Inscriptions to 1989.
Access Conditions: Can only be used in Newspaper Reading Room. Available on PC with jukebox.
Publisher: Genealogical Society of Victoria
Format: CD-ROM
Description: This index contains the date of death and the age of the deceased if on the inscription. Each name points to the full transcription. The index of about 119,600 names from 42,500 memorials is in a searchable data base which also contains burial plot identification (where known) and a map of the cemetery.
Features: IndexEntries
Topics: Genealogy - Victoria
Language(s): English
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4071
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Hi AP
Still no news of the pension records.
Re the storekeeper of the Tower, I think that was Thomas Hoskins Cutbush, who was father of Tom Flood Cutbush.
One approach yet to be tried - though I gather it can be quite time-consuming - would be to trace ownersh9ip of all the various Cutbush/Flood/Hayne properties, via the Land Registry etc.
i have seen a lady do it with Dorset St - Fiona something, i think she was called. I think it involves looking at insurance records etc.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 321
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 6:51 pm: |
|
Hi Robert,
I remeber this quite well as I aked the lady how she obtained the details. Her name was Fiona Rule and this is the reply she posted back in Jan. 2004.
Hi - In response to John: In order to find out details of property ownership and lessees, you usually have to consult a wide variety of sources and piece the information together. For this particular research, I looked at title deeds, Land Registry documents, fire and insurance surveys, lodging house registers, wills and probate inventories. One of the most interesting resources in this field is the 1910 Valuation Survey. If you can find the property in question (not all were surveyed) it can yield a lot of information including information on what the property looked like plus details of ownership and what the building was used for. Film of the Vaulation Survey can be found at the PRO in Kew.
The PRO have published a book which you may find very useful. Its called "Tracing The History of Your House" by Nick Barrett and it lists most of the major sources you can consult when researching in this field.
Hope this helps! Kind regards - Fiona
Regards
John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4072
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 3:11 am: |
|
Thanks very much for that, John. I'd dearly love to know who owned 14 Albert St, as neither Thomas nor Kate nor Clara seem to have left much when they died.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1728
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
|
Just tying up a few loose threads from previous posts.
The marriage of Tom Flood Cutbush to a Sophia Cope in 1803 caught my eye, as I had already noted that the Cope family - just like the Flood/Cutbush clan - were big-time at the Old Bailey, oyers, prosecutors and offices of the law and court. In fact one Thomas Cope - the officer of Islington - was a one-man-band who brought to justice more crooks than Elliot Ness.
Delving a little more I discover that closely connected members of the extended family were very wealthy watchmakers who combined that with a chandlers warehouse - just like the Flood/Cutbush crew - and delved in the sugar making and baking industry, again just like the Flood/Cutbush clan.
I was hoping to find that a Cope connected to the Flood/Cutbush empire might have fallen down the stairs, but this was the best I could do I’m afraid:
‘COPE John (sugar maker) (inquest) (pot fell on head) Whitechapel London 1822 LMA MJ/SPC/ E/1647’
Sorry, Robert, with my earlier confusion over the Cutbush employed at the Tower as a store-keeper. There is so much information to digest in this story that I sometimes get indigestion.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4078
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 2:25 pm: |
|
AP, I know how you feel. It's become a very broad subject.
If only half of the Times references dealing with bunches of flowers were about houses, asylums, clocks etc then we'd be a lot further down the road.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4079
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
|
It's a long item, so I won't post it here, but take a look at April 14th 1856, search term "Miss Cutbush." It's another of the charity fundraising items. LFC didn't raise much compared with many, but notice how often that sum £31 - 10 - o occurs throughout the list. Odd.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
|
Robert
The mystery with the £30 10 0 contributions is probably best explained by the fact that if one contributed 30 guineas, one became a governor of the London Hospital for life, under that sum one only became a governor for a year. So a lot of tight sods at the dinner shaved their contributions very tight if my maths are correct.
I do note the opulent names in the Jewish contingent at the dinner, many of the richest bankers of the day, and still today.
The Flood-Cutbush’s did indeed keep fine company.
I wonder which Miss Cutbush this was?
I reckon Luke was angling to marry her to some rich banker.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4081
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
|
Thanks for that, AP. Yes, doubtless he was angling for a good marriage....he also managed to angle that she gave more than him.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1733
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
|
Robert
No worries.
I’ve been running through a few things in the meantime.
The Thomas Lyttleton Holt that Sophis (or is that Sophia?) Cutbush married in 1830 didn’t last long, he was a bankrupt by 1846, but interestingly enough he was a newspaper publisher with offices in Fleet Street.
The marriage that really gets me though is Clarissa Cutbush’s to one John Meek in 1835, who was some kind of lawyer at the Temple Bar, but he had relatives in Port Melbourne, Australia - William Meek etc. - who practised law there.
A nice refuge for TTC perhaps?
Incidentally I have found a most provoking case of the murder of a women in 1855 where she was obviously and savagely mutilated and done to death - clothes over her head, stockings and stays ripped off, items scattered far and wide, dreadful cuts to her body and face etc - and then the cause of death has been given as ‘natural death by sanguineous apoplexy’ by some country hick of a doctor.
It is a classic.
Search ‘Sarah May’, March 13th & 14th 1855. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1734
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
I've spent the whole evening studying wills and suchlike of the Stoddarts and find that they owned great estates in Kent, mostly in the Maidstone region; and one James Stoddart - watchmaker who we have met before - when he died specified in his will that no Catholic should inherit one bit of his property, and if any of his family or inheritors should consider the Catholic cloth then they would be stripped of their inheritance forthwith and damned to the devil.
This does sound like uncle Charles.
I get the feeling that the Cutbush-Stoddart connection is a lot more formal than we think, and that TTC went to NZ to marry that girl in an arranged marriage. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4083
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
|
AP, interesting about the Australian Meek connection. Something may come of that.
All I can say about the "supposed" murder case is that it seems to me that it was deemed to be only a "supposed" murder because a "supposed" doctor was involved.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4084
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
|
You may be right about that, AP. At least, I think there must have been a powerful inducement to get TTC to go halfway round the world, when he'd just found himself such a nice marriage in England.
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 2:43 pm: |
|
Just an extra bit I forgot to add on my last message;
Sophia Cope was the daughter of Jacob Cope, Glazier of Saint Michael Crooked Lane , City of London
Debra |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Hi AP and Robert
Re; the Cope family, I believe that the Cope family in question may have been glass cutters. A while ago I came across a message on the London-L archives from a researcher in Australia who was researching the following families;
ABBOTT - farmers East Ham, Whitechapel: 19th cent
CLIPPINGDALE - London Watermen in Limehouse, Shadwell: all time periods
COPE - glass cutters in parish of St Michael, Crooked Lane: 1770s; St
Thomas Southwark 1803
CUMMING, William - master shoemaker "London" 1780 - 1820 - married Ann
ADAMS
CUTBUSH - glaziers, plumbers, painters in Whitechapel: 1780s
DANIEL- bank clerk City of London,Hackney, Hampstead: 1790-1850
FLOOD, Luke - chandler in Whitechapel: 1760
PONTIFEX - coppersmith in Shoe Lane, Fleet Street; Winchmore Hill,
Edmonton: 1790 - 1847
HUNT, Matilda - Whitechapel: 1780 - 1871 - married Thomas MEARS 1806
KING - Mariner, Watermen in Limehouse, Shadwell, Whitechapel:1780 - 1850
LOUGHTON - Hillingdon 1725
MEARS - Whitechapel Bell Foundry: anytime, but esp. 18th Cent
MILLWARD - gunmakers in Whitechapel: 1820 - 1850
NAIRN, Fasham - Westminster, Whitechapel
STEERWOOD - dyers in Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, Spitalfields
SWINEY - dyers in Shoreditch, Hoxton: 1780 - 1850
TODD - originally Towcester, Northants; later Hoxton: 1760 - 1850
VENABLES - wool and linen drapers in Whitechapel, Aldgate: 19thC
WADHAM - glass blowers in Whitechapel : 1780 - 1830
It seems he was researching several names in common to the family of Thomas Taylor CUTBUSH ( 7 I count), unfortunately his e mail address is no longer valid, he would have been a very useful contact!
Debra
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4108
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
|
Yes indeed, Debra, and a great shame that he's changed suppliers, or whatever it is that he's done. Still, who knows, the other names may prove useful.
Thanks, Debra.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4109
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
|
Here's a sugar connection :
AUG 22nd 1849
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4111
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
|
I was looking for something completely different when this caught my eye. It includes a Pontifex, a Venables, a King and two Taylors.
DEC 31st 1862
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1742
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
|
That's a bit odd, Robert, as I just happen to be following a Cutbush lead in South Africa, and after exhaustive study do feel that the Cutbush/Flood clan would have naturally gravitated down to that colony at that time in history.
I'm snowed under at the moment but have taken note of yours and Debra's posts and will get back asap.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1744
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 1:37 pm: |
|
Just a bit more on William Meek of Melbourne.
He was a highly respected attorney at law, President of the Melbourne Cricket Club, and was known as the 'gentleman pioneer'.
An article about him does exist at the 'Law Institute Victoria' but I am unable to unlock it.
It appears - just like TTC - he was fond of taking passage from Port Melbourne to Sydney at about the same time as TTC.
He also had many daughters.
My gut feeling is that TTC went to Port Melbourne in search of a bride, and it should have been a Meek bride but something went wrong, and he ended up with another lady less meek. |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
|
It seems the same lot were gold mining in Brazil too
1512 Ouro Preto Gold Mines of Brazil Limited
Office 9 Queen Street Place London EC. Chairman E A Pontifex
Directors - E de Wael, John Taylor, Bn Oberkampf (Hon Dir)
M Paisant, the last 2 now resident in France. Secretary G H Wells.
Managers - John Taylor and Sons. The company was registered on
19th April 1893 to acquire properties situated in the province of
Minas Geraes, Brazil, belonging to a company of the same name
registered 31st Jan 1884. Capital £140,000 in £1 shares.
Voluntary Liquidation 3rd July 1914. Final Meeting return 9th Feb
1923.
A reconstructed company registered 1914 was itself in Vol Liq
10th August 1927.
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
|
Debra
The Cutbush lead I've been following was also related to gold mining in South Africa.
The John Taylor & Sons connection is provoking.
There was actually a sailing vessel named the 'John Taylor' which specialised in the outbound immigrant trade to the Colonies, and after they had grubbed in the soil for a while, then brought their gold back to the heart of the Empire to be turned into sovereigns for the 'gentlemen' - like John Taylor - to pass to Whitechapel whores of a Saturday night.
And so did that age old cycle of humanity turn.
I have the 'John Taylor' bound for Wellington and Melbourne in 1853 with a load of hapless immigrants - no doubt many transportees amongst them in steerage - and then out bound for London with 11,847 ounces of gold.
I bet you could never guess what else the good ship 'John Taylor' had in her cargo hold on that voyage?
Good old bells from the Whitechapel Foundry.
Those immigrants dug better gold when they heard a few bells from the homeland. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4114
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Fascinating stuff, AP and Debra. I've checked the IGI for Africa and South America, but no Cutbushes. There were of course a couple in India, hopefully engaged in the tea trade.
With Pontifex in copper, there'd have been a natural tie-up with the bronze bells, wouldn't there?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4121
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:20 pm: |
|
Oct 25th 1853 has Messrs Pontifex and Wood (this is our Pontifex) contributing to a charity for which Janet Taylor was a collector.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:47 pm: |
|
Hi AP
I think I saw the Whitechapel Foundry today.I noticed that at the far end of Mulberry St,looking from Plumbers Row,there was a small tower at the top of one of the buildings and inside this tower were four bells hanging in a vertical arrangement.They looked quite quaint above all the glass and brickwork of the other office buildings.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1752
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
|
Robert
was that my old mate Janet Taylor the Navigator?
Of the Minories?
I gotta a lot of time for that girl.
Somewhere in the mess of my computer I have a file that goes into ship-owners and bankers involved in the immigrant and gold trade of the colonies, I must dig the varmint out.
I've been so busy trying to pin TTC down in 1865 that I haven't even looked at Pontifex yet.
Following up the murder of the 'unfortunate' (was it in 1863?) - the killing of the prostitute that resembled MJK's - I find that the police were looking for someone who looked like a 'sugar baker or maker'.
This tickled me.
What does a 'sugar baker or maker' look like?
Do they have 'Tate & Lyle' printed on their T-shirt?
But I think you can see where I'm going.
Natalie,
don't be shy, get in the foundry and have a look around. Heavens, if I was in London, I'd spend all my afternoons in there.
I'm sure if you went inside you would find inspiration. The foundry has been there since dot. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4126
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
|
AP, it was indeed the same Mrs Janet Taylor.
I don't know what a sugar baker looks like, but if he attacks a woman with a knife then presumably he always gives her thirteen stabs.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 6:38 pm: |
|
OK AP I will.Today I was getting some inspiration
from the Tower actually and what I recalled from this thread!.I pointed it out to my friend who is also a painter- we had been getting stuff from Atlantis just across from Mulberry Street and I told her about the research that had been going on
and about how far back the Foundry dated and also its links with Big Ben ---she was quite wowed by it actually!So yes ---I will!
Natalie |
Neale Carter
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ncarter
Post Number: 59
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
|
AP,
I somehow missed your post of Feb 12. I will try to get to it soon and keep you advised.
Neale |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1759
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
|
Going back to an exchange of information between Debra and myself concerning the discovery of a woman's body in a canal by one Thomas Cutbush.
I find that canal killings are reasonably rare in the LVP, especially where it concerns a single woman, most canal killings for some strange reason involve children or males.
However I did find one canal killing that caught my attention in 1864, as the woman involved had been murdered in a fashion now quite familiar to us, by a single wound that had disabled her, and then the killer had spent time poking and stabbing the body with the murder weapon in idle speculation before slinging the body in the water.
No person was ever apprehended for the murder.
The full story is available at 'The Times' under 'Murder at Agar Town' March 22nd 1864. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4157
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 6:09 am: |
|
Yes, there seem to be quite a few of these, AP.
Have you found any series?
She's fallen in the water!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1761
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
|
Poor girl has fallen in the water, is right, Robert.
I wouldn't say I have yet found a series as I'm still actively looking... I do have one more at the moment, the method and victim fall out of place slightly in this one, but the motive is the same (ie. there is no motive but plenty of mutilation, in fact the mutilations are very pertinent), and again no person was ever convicted for the murder, so that makes three.
Obviously I'll keep you posted if I dig any more out.
These type of motiveless murders against women, instigated with a 'practised' killing wound, and then followed by a flurry of idle and pointless wounds, are extremely rare in the LVP, so I do believe we should sit up in our armchairs and take notice of them.
Otherwise history might pass us by in the fast lane.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4161
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 3:53 pm: |
|
AP, that's four isn't it? 1863, 1864, 1866 and the new one.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1764
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
|
As ever you are right, Robert.
I manage to get all the complicated things right and then can't seem to count my own fingers.
Got another one now anyway.
So that's four or five.
Oh and by the way, I got a 'Flood' murdering people as well, I haven't got behind it yet, and - I think - it is not related to such crimes as we investigate, but I just thought it was nice to finally get a Flood with Blood on his hands.
Search term 'soldier Flood', August 18th 1862:
'The Brighton Murder'.
On another tack, have we had the name 'Meeking' come up before? Or am I confusing it with Meek? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4163
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
|
Yes, seems an innocent sort of murder, AP.
I found a family of Irish Floods burned to death in a house in the East End, but I can't remember just when.
No Meeking that I can recall.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1771
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
A discovery that may clear up some confusion regarding the properties belonging to the Flood-Cutbush clan in Fieldgate Street and the Whitechapel Road (Roadside as it is sometimes called).
Now, properties along the Whitechapel Road in this particular area - where they ran parallel to Fieldgate Street - were truly gigantic, and in fact their back doors were located in Fieldgate Street, so say one owned the properties number 30 and 31 Whitechapel Road, then they would in fact be exactly the same properties as numbers 6 and 7 Fieldgate Street.
The same houses straddled both streets and their front and back doors had different addresses.
For confirmation of this please see the case involving Booth of Salvation Army fame who was disallowed from using both addresses of his property that straddled the Whitechapel Road and Fieldgate Street in local elections:
‘The Times, October 3rd 1882’ search term ‘Tower Hamlets’.
While on the subject of property I must admit to being entirely confused by finding numbers 6 & 7 Fieldgate Street being offered for sale in 1884?
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1640
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
|
Hi AP
I noticed that The Foundry had just such two addresses.In fact the yard has Whitechapel Road EC1 written above a sash window in the yard at the back of the house .The main entrance is from Whitechapel Road number 32 but another main trade entrance is from Fieldgate Street and some of the building extends into Plumbers Row-or appears too.
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1773
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
|
Quite right, Natalie
I did notice some time ago that there was some confusion about the Whitechapel Foundry, as it originally appeared as if there was a rival Foundry on their back doorstep, well, yes, there was, it was the back doorstep of the Whitechapel Foundry in Fieldgate Street.
And again right about the buildings extending into Plumbers Row, it is and was all the same foundry, and this I feel clears up the mystery about the various properties ascribed to the Cutbush-Flood clan around the Whitechapel Road, Fieldgate Street and Plumbers Row. They were, I reckon, all the one and same property.
It is nice to get first hand experience though, so thanks for that. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1774
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
|
I thought this a nice cup of tea as well:
'HENRY MOBSBEY. My dwelling house is No. 6, Fieldgate-street, Whitechapel.
Q. Where do you carry out any business - A. No. 70, Chiswell-street, St. Luke's. I am in partnership with George Felix Gilbert, he sleeps there; the rent of the house and the taxes are paid jointly, George Felix Gilbert keeps the house; we are tea dealers.'
From the Old Bailey transcripts.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1642
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
Yes its a bit like looking into a magic lantern showing the passage of time and catching an illuminated moment a hundred years back, a cup of tea or a hand through the hair and nothing has changed -we go on just the same in some ways! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4170
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
|
AP, Natalie
That's a turn up for the books. I'll have to try and get my head round it.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1775
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 1:13 pm: |
|
I'm sure you will Robert, and when you get your head round the corner of Roadside and Fieldgate you'll probably see uncle Charles!
Natalie
next time you are wandering around the area any chance of checking to see how the present day numbers of the Whitechapel Road, particularly numbers 29 to 32, correspond to the same buildings around the back in Fieldgate Street, again particularly numbers 6 & 7?
I'd be very grateful. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1776
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
|
Just having a sweep around, trying to keep things tidy and neat.
I note that the Florence Johnson who was supposedly stabbed by Thomas Hayne Cutbush in 1891 figures in a criminal trial in 1884 when she was aged 14.
Florence's father was up for threatened murder, on his wife and baby son, and Florence was a material witness for the prosecution in his trial.
As a general rule I am always highly suspicious of material witnesses acting for the prosecution when they have appeared as such twice in their life.
They tend to have the slight odour of cod about them on their second appearance. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4175
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
|
Hi AP
There is a puzzle about No. 30.
This is from Luke George's will :
Luke George Cutbush of 30 Road side in the parish of Saint Mary Whitechapel in the County of Middlesex plumber and glazier do make this my last will and testament in manner and form following I give divide and bequeath unto my beloved wife Elizabeth Cutbush all my money securities for money goods chattels estate and effects of what manner or kind soever to hold the same
Now this is from Clarissa's codicil, almost 20 years later :
..I (illeg) that the copyhold house and premises being No. 30 Whitechapel Road on lease to my son Tom Flood Cutbush and in my will left to the use of his own will shall be his property and for his sole use during his natural life but at and after his demise it shall be the property of my grand daughter Ann Cutbush and her (first?) child’s boy or girl for ever and for ever according to the usage and custom of the manor of which the same is holden without being subject to the debts of any husband she may
So if No. 30 went to Luke George's wife, how did Clarissa get hold of it? I can only assume that Luke George, while living there, didn't actually own it.
Robert
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
|
AP,will do.May be able to go over there next week if not the week after.Any other information you need on the place let me know and I"ll do my best.
Natalie
Ps curious about Florence.She was therefore known to the police---which police were involved in the case-not Uncle Charles by any chance? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1778
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
|
Robert,
I'll take a look at the various wills again, but you are right, something not quite right there.
If my memory serves me well, when 30 Roadside came up in the wills it was always as a lease or rental, as if the original owner was reluctant to part with it.
Natalie
I never thought to look to see if uncle Charles was involved in the 1884 case involving Florence, but I will now.
Regardless of that, I am prepared to accept that her witness statements concerning Thomas in 1891 may have been suspect because of her previous contact with the forces of law and order.
Tainted love. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4180
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 6:48 am: |
|
Hi AP
We can't be sure this is the same Florence Johnson, can we? Anyway, this is possibly the family in question, in 1881 ;
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John JOHNSON
Head M Male 45 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Tailor
Sarah JOHNSON
Wife M Female 44 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Tailor Wife
Eva JOHNSON
Daur U Female 21 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Bonnet Sewer Straw
John JOHNSON
Son U Male 16 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Gas Fitter (Apprentice)
Florence JOHNSON
Daur Female 11 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Scholar
Alice JOHNSON
Daur Female 8 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Scholar
Ellen JOHNSON
Daur Female 5 Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England Scholar
Source Information:
Dwelling Bridge Street
Census Place Leighton Buzzard, Bedford, England
Family History Library Film 1341392
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1642 / 4
Page Number 1
By 1891 the husband and wife were still together, with Alice and Ellen, but where Florence was I cannot say. I have not yet been able to identify her.
Robert
|
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
