| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 5:54 pm: |       |
Robert
I'm not sure, but I think I might have just nailed the connection between the Cutbush clan, clock makers, Lord Grimthorpe, famous clock maker and Thomas Mears the great bell maker.
The following chap was a famous 'instrument maker' which means clocks and stuff like that, his address is quite interesting as is the date:
'DEAN, JOHN England, c.1828, MIM 6 Fieldgate Street, Whitechapel, London. O'Mara ' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3295
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 6:10 pm: | |
Hi AP
Interesting yes, but could you expand on that please?
Hi Natalie
Glad you're enjoying it. I'm sure there's a lot more to come.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1419
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 6:36 pm: | |
Robert
you will find the reference on the 'Websters Instrument Makers' site, and I would make it perfectly clear here that we are not talking about musical instruments but rather of instruments of time... gravity, escapement movements, sun dials, bells that ring rather than crack and the like.
I've got some more but that damned brandy bottle has just started wiggling its hips.
Oh and by the way, Robert, 6 & 7 Fieldgate Street were right opposite the Whitechapel Foundary, I mean within spitting distance.
Check the maps out.
Fieldgate Street sort of makes the corner with the Foundary.
I'll throw up more soon. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3296
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 6:49 pm: | |
OK, AP, thanks.
Brandy bottle? Throw up? Waste of fine brandy, AP.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3297
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 7:00 pm: | |
AP, there was also William Youle at 22 Fieldgate St from 1822 - 33.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3298
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 6:15 am: | |
Here's Youle advertising for a domestic in 1828.
I'm a bit confused here, AP. Was this the same foundry? (1884)
Finally, when in the ruling on the court case (the one while Tom was in Broadmoor) the judge said "Appoint A.B. guardian" I took the judge to have given these initials for no particular reason - I didn't imagine that these were the guardian's actual initials (even though he called Broadmoor B and Tom THC). But now it seems there was someone called AB living at Luke's house, albeit over 40 years before the court case.
Oct 19th 1848.
Was there someone called A.B. we haven't heard about?
Robert
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3300
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 7:30 am: | |
Of course, AB may have stood for the Asylum of Broadmoor - if an asylum can be a guardian?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3301
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 10:35 am: | |
Here are the occupants of Nos 6 and 7 Fieldgate St in the 1891 census. There aren't that many of them.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 1:48 pm: | |
Great stuff, Robert
I too wondered about the A.B. business in regard to THC... and will dwell on what you have dug up.
I do have the actual address of the Whitechapel Foundary somewhere here and will post it in due course. Did you realise that the Whitechapel Foundary is the oldest business establishment in England?
There seem to be a lot of spectacle makers in the street?
I've only just got back on the net so haven't followed any of this up yet.
The really bad news is that Safeways have stopped making Spanish brandy!
I'm forced to drink a fine Osborno! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3302
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 4:01 pm: | |
AP. condolences on the SSB. On the bright side, Somerfields have been doing an offer on Typhoo, so I'm stocked up with that.
I think the Fieldgate site may have been a separate foundry. From 1842 :
re the spectacle makers, I think the idea was that you went in and tried to read the card :
}The Juwes
are not
the men
that will
be blamed
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 4:54 pm: | |
Enjoyed that Robert
I managed the first three lines before I started seeing bottles of SSB.
Yes, you are right, as the following - taken from the official Whitechapel Foundry site - reveals:
'John Mears is something of a mystery, he worked here and seems to have owned a part of the premises known as the Back Foundry, for according to some old account books, he received rent accordingly; he died on 14th October 1885 and was buried at Bekesbourne Church in Kent on 19th October.
There are two offshoots from the foundry during the latter half of the 18th century - one established close by, and one at the far end of London, in Chelsea.
Sarah Oliver, Lester's granddaughter, married one Robert Patrick, a cheesemonger in Whitechapel and he for some mysterious reason or other, started a rival business. He probably got hold of some of the Whitechapel workmen, and he turned out some fairly good bells but it is doubted that the venture was altogether a successful one.'
And here is the address and other particulars:
'32/34 Whitechapel Road, London E1 1DY, UK.
Ph: 020 7247 2599 Fax: 020 7375 1979
bells@whitechapelbellfoundry.co.uk
"the world's most famous bell foundry"
Well worth looking at a map of that time period.
Still trying to track down this instrument maker 'John Dean'. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 5:28 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. I'll email them to see if any archives survive. I'm not optimistic, but it's worth trying.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3306
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
This is Luke in the 1871 census - the year before he died. The writing's very difficult, but I've checked with Chris and he's confirmed it's the right man. He's also very kindly done an eagle-eyed transcription, deciphering details that were totally illegible to me. Here it is :
Clapton High Road (Lea Bridge Route), No 4
Head:
Luke F Cutbush aged 66 born Whitechapel, Middlesex - Living on Rents
Wife:
Mary A Cutbush aged 61 born Whitechapel, Middlesex - Occupation illegible except the words .......from 20...London
Visitor:
Ann Foster aged 71 born ?, Middlesex - Annuitant
Servants:
Eliza Kepps aged 25 born Saffron Walden, Essex
Emma Haines aged 19 born Bermondsey, Surrey
The Ancestry birthplace transcription was "Whitechapel Mexico" - prompting Chris to wonder whether Jack had a huge sombrero and a Zapata moustache!
Thanks, Chris!
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1423
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:12 pm: | |
Nice one Robert
so this Mary A Cutbush must be the second of the Mears sisters he married?
I must try and put this marriage and the demise of the Mears influence on the Whitechapel Foundry into some kind of time frame.
As well as the sombrero he probably drank Spanish brandy.
See you found a 'Haines' as well.
Often spelt like that. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1424
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:14 pm: | |
Robert
We see extraordinary developments here.
I remember well my own excitement on the discovery of a rather tenuous link between the Cutbush family and Lord Grimthorpe… a link that appeared to have gone out as soon as I lit the blue touch paper.
But this is a very different matter, for here we have an entire sack full of clearly evidenced links and unquestionable connections between the Cutbush family, the Mears family of Whitechapel Foundry fame, and our very own Lord Grimthope.
In fact the entire caper is like a rip through the fabric of time, for we have in the Late Victorian Period the dramatic legal proceedings concerning Thomas Hayne Cutbush’s inheritance - the two properties in Fieldgate Street - where in an unusual court case this inheritance is passed over to the control of his mother.
Then we step back in time to the Early Victorian Period where we find a Luke Flood Cutbush resident in Fieldgate Street - and then bless my old tired boots - this Cutbush marries into the wealthy and influential Mears family who just happen to own the Whitechapel Foundry that forms part of Fieldgate Street - and bless my old tired boots a second time - this Cutbush sees off one Mears sisters and them immediately marries the next one!
The Whitechapel Foundry - under the control of the Mears family - design and build Lord Grimthorpe’s Big Ben bell for him - an enterprise that becomes fraught with acrimonious law suits and scandal (as Robert’s last post demonstrates wonderfully).
It would not be unreasonable to suggest that Luke Flood Cutbush - and his descendents as part of the Mears family - would have been acutely aware of the friction between Lord Grimthorpe and the Whitechapel Foundry concerning the faulty construction of the Big Ben bell.
It would also not be unreasonable to suggest that LF Cutbush married the two sisters for a good reason, and that this reason may have gained him a senior position within the Mears massive empire of bell-building.
The we jump forward in time to the LVP and come upon young Thomas Hayne Cutbush scribbling a note to Lord Grimthorpe.
There is more, but that will do for now.
I believe the next step is to positively show a family relationship between Luke Flood Cutbush of the EVP- and his two brides, as the first may have had child - and the Cutbush family we know from the LVP.
Well done, Robert, marvellous work!
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1472
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 1:49 pm: | |
With regard to properties etc., I have had another look at the 1871 entry for Luke and Mary Cutbush and have managed to enhance the image and decipher one more word.
The occupation of Mary Cutbush now reads:
<first two words illegible> from 20 Houses, London
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on October 25, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1473
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
My reading of Luke's profession as "Living on rents" is wrong - the word before rents definitely ends with a "d". It could read Liveried rents...
I am posting the image of both professions below:
 |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1426
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 2:33 pm: | |
Thanks very much, Chris
It would appear that they were both doing very nicely indeed from properties which they had picked up along the way.
Nice job if you can get it. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3307
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 2:33 pm: | |
Chris, thanks for that. Twenty houses! We're talking serious wealth here.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3308
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 3:06 pm: | |
AP, Chris
Free BMD has a Mary Ann Cutbush dying Sept quarter 1881 in Croydon aged 72.
If this is her in the 1881 census, she only just squeezed in!
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Mary A. CUTBUSH
Head W Female 71 London, Middlesex, England Independant Annuitant
Mary NORBURY
Companion U Female 61 London, Middlesex, England Companion
Anne M. COVETS
Serv U Female 35 Winterriddge, York, England Trained Ladys Nurse (S/M)
Ruth TOMKINS
Serv U Female 26 Gt Harwood, Buckingham, England Cook & C
Isabella M. CHANT
Serv U Female 28 Putney, Surrey, England Housemaid & C
Source Information:
Dwelling 7 Beverly Rd
Census Place Barnes, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341201
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0848 / 95
Page Number 20
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1427
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 5:33 pm: | |
Your Mary is to be envied Robert, servants and companions all over the house.
She one rich gal all right.
I've been trying to track down this John Dean, instument maker, who was living in Tom-Toms house at 6 Fieldgate Street in 1828...
What a nightmare.
I've also spent hours going through the remaining documentia of the Denison family - Lord Grimthorpe and Co - with no luck and very sore eyes.
All is not lost though.
I did find this chap in a Trades Directory:
'Dean, John. Clock Maker. Pudsey. 1822.'
So at least he is real. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3310
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 7:10 pm: | |
Hi AP
No luck in the "Times". I found a lost watch with "Dean" on it, but that's it.
The situation with the Cutbush family is still very fluid, because we're still missing so much info, but as far as I can make out there were two Tom Flood Cutbushes. One was born Whitechapel 1784 and fathered Luke. And then there was this other TFC who married in Edmonton twice (1937 and 1842). His first wife Sarah seems to have died in 1841 and he straight away re-married in 1842 - but I'm not sure of all of this.
Didn't seem to hang on to their wives for long.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3312
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 10:00 pm: | |
AP, I don't know whether or not this leads anywhere :
Historical Clock & watch Research - Online Library - Index D
... Dean, J of Walthamstow- see Essex Makers (Trade Directory Lists); Deaneau SA of
Bienne. A brief document giving some working dates for this maker. ...
www.clockswatches.com/libd.htm - 50k - Cached - Similar pages
But it's a confounded pay site!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3315
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
What was going on here?
AUG 13 1864
Robert |
judyjerkins
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 10:38 pm: | |
AP Wolf and Robert Lindford - can either of you, or anyone else, please explain to me where/how the Haynes family of South Australia might fit into the Cutbush discussion?
the information posted is from my Invisible Threads website and I have quite a bit of other info which might be of interest too
judy jerkins bushnook@hotkey.net.au |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1428
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Interesting Robert
for it is the year that TTC married Kate.
One notes that the contents of the house are being sold and not the actual house... forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't the original domicile of the newly wed TTC & Kate in Enfield?
Perhaps this T. Cutbush was being slung out to make room for the newly wed?
The contents of the household are a bit rich for a Victorian plumber anyway.
300 volumes of books is of interest.
The fact that the household had a personal carriage is also provoking.
I haven't seen that word 'phaeton' for a long time.
Don't worry Robert, I haven't fallen asleep in front of an empty brandy bottle... busy with John Deans and Flood Cutbush's.
Not easy. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3316
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 5:03 pm: | |
Hi AP
Yes, a strange family, the Cutbushes - plumbers and painters with pots of money.
I don't know whether TTC and Kate went to live in Enfield - I don't remember seeing such a reference. At the time that he was married, TTC was living 14 Albert St, which I thought was a bit odd.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1429
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Judy
Thanks for dropping in.
I really should let Robert explain this, as he drinks tea and I drink brandy, so he would probably make a lot more sense.
The fact of the matter is that we don't know.
I suppose we are running with the idea that after Thomas Taylor Cutbush married Kate Hayne in 1864 - in consequence of which one Thomas Hayne Cutbush was born in 1865 - and then Thomas Taylor Cutbush subsequently took ship in 1886 - originally to Wellington on the 'Commodore' arriving 20-1-1867, but by 1875 shipping out to Melbourne on the 'You Yangs' - that one suspects he did have prior family engagements to honour, and as the 'Haynes' were such a bunch of privateers and scoundrels in the early history of the settlement of both Australia and New Zealand, that those family engagements were with the 'Haynes'.
Our feeling, I think, is that Thomas Taylor Cutbush would not have taken ship unless he had strong family ties to fall back upon arrival.
The fact that he swiftly took a new young bride by the name of Stoddart once down under I think is more down to hormones than genes.
Anyways I'm glad you are here, and any contribution you can make would be more than welcome.
It would be lovely to have a research friend there down under so I hope you are going to stay. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3318
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Hi Judy
Any help you can give us in tracking this slippery man will be very much appreciated.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1431
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 1:18 pm: | |
Robert
The T. Cutbush, plumber, selling off all his household goods is I think TTC’s father.
Refer yourself to your post of May 28th concerning the marriage record of TTC and Kate Hayne:
‘Father of groom: Thomas Cutbush. Occupation: plumber.’
What is interesting here is that a lowly plumber’s son marries a ‘brokers’ daughter, as Kate Hayne’s father’s occupation is given as thus.
I know that plumbers today are amongst the wealthiest of society but I would imagine in the LVP they were little better off socially and financially than chimney sweeps - (perhaps I’m wrong).
The LVP was a very class conscience society and such a marriage is quite out of tune with the times.
Mind you, judging by the splendid household goods that T.Cutbush, plumber, was selling, he was no ordinary plumber and must have been worth a considerable sum of money.
A plumber in a horse-drawn carriage! A ’phaeton’ at that!
My confusion with the Enfield address goes back to another post of yours, Robert, that of April 17th, where you give details of a marriage between Thomas Cutbush and Ann Taylor on the 25th Feb 1836 at St Andrew, Enfield.
I don’t know about the situation being ’fluid’, Robert, I feel if safer to say that I am drowning in a sea of Cutbush’s, Haynes and Stoddarts.
I found another reference to a John Dean that could be linked to his stay at Fieldgate Street:
‘Groom: DEAN, JOHN Bride: STEVENS, SARAH Date: 1806~APR 06 Parish: FELTHAM County: MIDDLESEX, ENGLAND Groom Note: WIDOWER Bride Note: WIDOW ‘
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3320
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 1:28 pm: | |
This is the 1871 record for John S Hayne, born Philadelphia (British subject) aged 25, architect's clerk. Wife Annie J, 24, born Newington. Daughter Annie Q or G, age 1 year, born Newington. Daughter Clara E, age 1 month, born Newington. Servant Kate Carpenter, 17, born Weedon Northants.
Address 12 Grosvenor St, St Mary Newington.
(This was the other Hayne family with an American connection living in Newington).
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3321
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 1:38 pm: | |
Hi AP
Yes, as a plumber I suppose he's got a very good chance of being TTC's dad. I suppose because plumbers, painters and glaziers tend to be lumped together, I wondered whether they were people who did a bit of everything, and we seem to have a lot of plumbers, painters and glaziers in the Cutbush clan. I too can't understand how plumbers and painters can be so wealthy.
Interesting about John Dean. I'm sure we'll find him unless he does a runner to New Zealand.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1432
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 5:50 pm: | |
A bit more on your Youle in Fieldgate Street, Robert - more than a spectacle maker I reckon:
'YOULE, WILLIAM England, fl.1822-60, MIM NIM OIM PHIM SIM Theodolite = Christie-SK 11/19/87; Map Pointer = Soth. 12/15/78;; Sextants = MYS, D.(1989); Inclinable Sundial = LIM; Wheel Barometer = X; Drum Microscope = D.(1983). 22 Fieldgate Street, Whitechapel (1822-33); 79 Leadenhall Street (1845); 83 Leadenhall Street (1845-60); A1 Grace- church Street; all in London. ' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3322
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 6:04 pm: | |
Great find, AP. Of course, he may have nothing to do with Luke or Dean, but the presence of such a skilled man in the street is extra confirmation that Fieldgate St at that time was (at least in parts) quite classy. I know that Luke was living there in 1841, but whether he was living there prior to this, I can't say.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1436
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 7:23 am: | |
Thanks Robert
Found an early neighbour of Tom-Tom's properties in Fieldgate Street.
From the proceedings of the Old Bailey - 1797 ref: t17970111-5 :
'SARAH GODFREY sworn. - Examined by Mr. Const. I live at No. 8, in Fieldgate-street; the house belongs to Mr. Coombes, an officer of the Police-office, Whitechapel.'
The case involved the murder of a man using this police officer's service pistol.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3325
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 9:27 am: | |
Thanks AP. I believe there's a way of finding out about these properties and who owned them and when, because a lady called Fiona (I think) recently did the entire length of Dorset St from a Land Registry point of view. Hopefully the records still remain.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1438
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
I'm getting there anyway, Robert.
Here's another interesting one:
'Beckwith. Henry,
33 Fieldgate St 1858-1863
33 Fieldgate St & 58 Skinner St 1864-1965 '
This chap was a named retailer of 'Tranter Firearms'.
Wasn't it an inscribed 'Tranter' that was featured on the site not so long ago, belonging to someone like Warren?
Perhaps I should be posting this stuff on the Fieldgate Street thread?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3326
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 2:55 pm: | |
Hi AP
Yes, I suppose on the Fieldgate St thread.
Swanson's gun came up recently. I can't remember if it was a Tranter.
One thing we have to bear in mind, in moving from 6 and 7 Fieldgate St in 1822 to the same addresses in 1892 is : what if they re-numbered the houses (as they were apparently quite fond of doing)?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3328
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 3:37 pm: | |
This was the end of Tom Flood's first wife :
MAR 9th 1841
And this one is probably the plumber who may have been TTC's dad. It seems he was an appraiser.
DEC 31 1841
PS Bad mouse manipulation - that first one was Enfield.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3334
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 11:31 am: | |
Is this our John Dean?
Dean, John Travers, 1825; CCs. of Thos, John Street, Commercial Road, watch maker; app. his father 10 October 1825.
Thomas Dean 1819 - 1842; CCf. redemp. 1819; John Street, Commercial Road, watch maker 1825 when his son Jno Travers app. to him; 25 Dempsey Street Commercial Road 1838 - 42 (dir.); watch and chronometer maker.
(From "Britten's Old Clocks And Watches And Their Makers")
There were at leasr three timepiece makers called Travers, so maybe Thomas Dean married into the Travers family.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 1:26 pm: | |
Great stuff, Robert.
I'll run with that and see what comes up.
I feel that Thomas Dean may well have come from America, from good old Philly... Kate's home town.
The Travers ring a bell... somewhere! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 4:15 pm: | |
Robert
perhaps this is where the Haynes walked right into the door of history:
'Benedict Haynes (d. 1611), who also held land in Surrey, had probably acquired Wick by 1602, when he was assessed in Hackney. (Footnote 88) As a manor with 90 a. in Hackney and Stepney, formerly held of the Hospitallers and of the Crown, it was to be sold by the executors of his eldest son Henry Haynes (d. 1627). (Footnote 89) In 1633 Thomas Haynes surrendered it to John Bayliffe, (Footnote 90) a lawyer who lived in Hackney and who in 1642 vested it in his son-in-law Oliver Clobery (d. 1649) (Footnote 91) and other creditors. Despite claims by representatives of the Haynes family and by Bayliffe's son William, Clobery's son Henry obtained possession in 1662 and left Wick by will proved 1665 to Abraham Johnson, his father's executor. (Footnote 92) Abraham by will dated 1674 left it to his son Edward Johnson, who resisted renewed claims and in 1690 sold it to Edward Ambrose.
From: British History Online
Source: Hackney: Manors. A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume X, T.F.T. Baker (Editor) (1995).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3342
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 5:06 pm: | |
Hi AP
Maybe these are their ancestors. We haven't spent much time on the Hayne family. Somehow some of them got into Oxfordshire, anyway.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 1:38 pm: | |
Robert
just going through some old references and found this one which I had forgotten all about, on account of suddenly becoming a diabetic, drinking a glass of brandy and falling over in a drunken stupor.
It's from the proceedings of the Old Bailey but I've lost the reference now, but will look for it again:
'LUKE FLOOD sworn.
I am a painter in Whitechapel; I was foreman of the Jury for the present sessions; have known the prisoner from an infant, a very honest lad.'
The timing was suitable. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3361
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 2:25 pm: | |
AP, I'm beginning to wonder what kind of painters the Cutbushes were. Maybe one or two of them were portrait painters? (Did you get the will I sent you?)
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 3:13 pm: | |
Not yet, Robert.
The will, I mean.
I have had a glimmer on the Cutbush clan involved in 'arty' painting rather than house painting... but I really need to look more at that.
I look forward to the will. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3363
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 4:01 pm: | |
Hi AP
I sent it 2 or 3 days ago but it's obviously on its way out of the solar system. I've just re-sent it. Let me know on Casebook if you've got it, as Tiscali's playing up tonight.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1459
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 4:57 pm: | |
Sorry Robert, just checked, all that's in me mailbox is an offer to bung me in a septic tank.
I think that was from Colin Wilson.
Meanwhile here is the glimmer I have on London Cutbush's of an artistic nature, (all the references are late 1700's to mid 1800's), perhaps you can drag more out of it:
'term of apprenticeship with Edward Cutbush, from London ... in Indian habiliments
and Benjamin Rush, the latter a cousin of the artist; George Washington ... Rush was
also an apprentice of a man named Edward Cutbush, an artisan from London
RUSH, William, sculptor, born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 4 July, 1756; died there, 17 January, 1856. In his youth he was apprenticed to Edward Cutbush, a carver, and he first became known as a maker of figure-heads for ships.
WILLIAM RUSH Few citizens of Philadelphia are more deserving of commendation for their excellence in their profession than this gentleman, as a ship carver. In his skill in his art he surpasses any other American, and probably any other ship carver in the world ! He gives more grace and character to his figures than are to be found in any other wooden designs. He ought to have been encouraged to leave specimens of his best skill for posterity, by receiving an order to that effect from some of the learned societies. I have heard him say his genius would be most displayed in carving the three great divisions of the human face -- the negro, the American Indian, and the white man. The contour or profile of these run diametrically opposite; because the features of a white man, which stand in relief, all proceed from a perfect perpendicular line, thus l . A negro's has a projecting forehead and lips, precisely the reverse of those of the Indian, thus ( ; but an Indian's thus >. I made it my business to become acquainted with Mr. Rush, because I have admired his remarkable talents. He was born in Philadelphia; his father was a ship carpenter. From his youth he was fond of ships, and used, when a boy, to pass his time in the garret in cutting out ships from blocks of wood, and to exercise himself in drawing figures in chalk and paints. When of a proper age he followed his inclination in engaging his term of apprenticeship with Edward Cutbush, from London, the then best carver of his day. He was a man of spirited execution, but inharmonious proportions.'
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3365
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. I'm sure the England-America connection is important, somehow. The trouble is, I'm not subscribed to the US side of Ancestry, so it's a bit difficult to investigate that side of it. But we know from the "friends in London" item you found, and the Kate Hayne-John S Hayne business, that there's a strong link here.
I'll post the will here, but it's only a rough draft. I'm hoping they'll send me a better scan.
Or better eyes.
This is TFC’s will, as far as I can make it out at present. TFC was the son of Clarissa and the father of LFC.
I Tom Flood Cutbush of Lewisham (illegible) Lewisham in the County of Kent do make this my last will and testament in the manner and form following I direct that my executors hereinafter named do pay any just debts funeral expenses and the expense of proving this my last will and testament I give and bequeath unto my first son Luke Flood Cutbush of Fieldgate Street Saint Mary Whitechapel in the County of Middlesex my freehold estate No. 8 (illegible – Serocny?) Street let to (illegible) a tailor being (illegible – my late brother’s?) marriage settlement in the parish of Aldgate in the City of London. Also the freehold land and three houses built thereon by Benjamin (illegibele – Wire? Wice?) in Upton Park Stratford in the County of Essex. I also give him my father’s plate in box (illegible) father’s silver watch gold seals and chain with one of the silver snuff boxes. I also give him my mother’s portrait and the small portrait of my father. I give and bequeath to my second son Thomas Cutbush of Enfield in the County of Middlesex my freehold estate in (illegible) Street in the parish of Saint Georges in the East in the County of Middlesex. And to this (illegible) is in the occupation of ------(illegible) a labourer. I also give him my own silver snuff box and all my bed linen wearing apparel and clothes. I also give him a legacy of one hundred and fifty pounds sterling to be paid out of my estate so soon as that sum can be collected. I do give and bequeath to my daughter Elizabeth Ann Stokes wife of William Stokes of (illegible) Road (illegible) Road Dalston in the County of Middlesex a legacy of ten pounds (illegib;le) so amply provided for under my mother’s will. I give and bequeath to my youngest son Edward Cutbush all my household furniture bed linen towels (illegible) china cutlery glass and whatever is used in furnishing a house with all my books. I do hereby direct that all my watchmaking musical and philosophical instruments together with all my (illegible) together with all my pictures not being family portraits or executed by any of my family and all roots bulbs plants shrubs garden (illegible) and whatever else is not useful to my family to be sold and the produce of said sale to be applied to the purposes of this will and I do further direct that the family portraits and pictures executed by my family be distributed by my hereinafter appointed executors amongst my children and the residue and remainder of my property of whatsoever kind and wheresoever situated and wheresoever the same may become (illegible) including my two freehold houses in Fieldgate Street in the parish of St Mary Whitechapel in the County of Middlesex being No. 6 and 7 in the said street all my leasehold estates annuities for the term of years the remaining amount of stock in the 3 per cent consols ground rents and all other properties wheresoever situated and whatsoever description that I am now or may be hereafter entitled unto together with all my interest in the residue of the estate of the late Sarah Cope deceased I give to my executors and trustees hereinafter named in trust for them to appoint a good and efficient (illegible) to collect the rents and income of the same at a salary by poundage to collect the rents and manage the estate to account to the executors and trustees and that the produce shall be divided each half year by the trustees between my son Edward Cutbush my daughter Elizabeth Sophia Boil the wife of Thomas (illeg) Boil and my daughter Clarissa Street the wife of John Joseph Street and for the other purposes of this will (illeg) share and share alike. To my two daughters Sophia Boil and Clarissa Street I make this bequest to be independent of their husbands’ power or the power of any future husband nor is it to be subject to their husbands’ control in any way or manner nor liable to their husbands’ (illegible). My (illegible) being a full and sufficient discharge for my executors and trustees and should any attempt be made to disturb this my true will and meaning by my daughters’ husbands or by their husbands’ creditors then the share of that daughter whose husband shall thus (illeg) to alter this my true intent and meaning shall pass from her unto my son Luke Flood Cutbush and be as much his property as if originally left to him. If my son Edward Cutbush be married and without issue then his wife shall have his share. If there should be issue then the child or children to have the parents share at the death of his wife or upon her marrying again. I do further give to the children of Elizabeth Sophia Boil and Clarissa Street the parent’s share at the death of the mother and subject to the provisions of this will. I do not intend any part of my estate to be sold but (illeg) for my children’s benefit.I do (illeg) nominate appoint and constitute Mr Jeremiah Thomas (illeg) of No. 105 (illeg) Street Whitechapel my son Luke Flood Cutbush of Fieldgate Street Whitechapel Road in the County of Middlesex and my son Edward Cutbush clerk in the Westminster General life Assurance Association No 27 (illeg) to be my executors and trustees to this my last will and testament revoking all former wills and securing this only to be my last will and testament. To my third wife Elizabeth I give not one shilling and I do this in (illeg) of her behaviour towards me from the first day of our marriage until her leaving me her refusal to allow me the privileges of matrimony first objecting (illeg) to such (illeg) obliging me to leave my room and after agreeing to remain with me as an housekeeper absconding the first opportunity presented by my absence from home. In witness of this my will and testament of the said Tom Flood Cutbush have to this my last will and testament in my hand this twenty-sixth day of August in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and forty-six. Tom Flood Cutbush Esq Signed by the testator Tom Flood Cutbush in the presence of us present at the same time have hereunto subscribed our names as witnesses in the presence of the said testator and of each other Thomas Cook Greaves 96 (illeg) Dover – William (illeg) Bailey schoolmaster 87 (illeg) Road Dover
Proved at London 18th September 1846 before the worshipful (illeg) and surrogate by the oaths of Jeremish Thomas (illeg) and Luke Flood Cutbush and Edward Cutbush the (illeg) the executors to whom power was granted (illeg)duty to administer.
This is just a rough draft. The annoying thing is that there are person and road names I can’t make out, but it’s early days yet.
Robert
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Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 4:25 pm: | |
Hi AP and Robert
I found this website, I don't know if you have come across it, that seems to indicate an earlier connection to bell ringing and the Cutbush's and Mears, previous to Luke Flood's marriage to the two Mears sisters.
>>The Ancient society of college youths
(A full list of past members, the society is some sort of very old bell ringing society)
1138 1775 MEARS, WILLIAM (ESQ), Whitechapel, Middx Bellfounder
1267 1784 CUTBUSH, THOMAS, Maidstone, Kent
1497 1790 MEARS, THOMAS, Whitechapel, Middx Bellfounder<<
URL is http://www.ascy.org.uk/index.htm
Hope this is useful
Debra |
