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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Cutbush, Thomas » Lord Grimthorpe « Previous Next »

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Archive through January 05, 2005Robert Charles Linfo50 1-05-05  6:03 pm
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1685
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, Robert, but it is only the long winded flatulent masturbatory Cleveland Street scandal.
However I do find that Abberline's reputation was called into question on numerous occasion, not just this one. I would say that he figures more than any other cop of the LVP for being on the wrong side of the law in defence of his fellow officers, and others.
What I also found of interest was the amount of photographic pornography that was available during the LVP - Abberline was the front line officer when it came to porn - and it set me to wondering why a well-heeled clerk like THC would be making porn when he could simply buy it from carts in the Whitechapel Road?
Another surprise was a fully fledged circus in Fieldgate Street complete with shooting galleries where Abberline was forced to arrest several High Germans for shooting Low Germans for a laugh. Riot followed.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3777
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 4:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP

Re the home-made stuff, maybe he was too embarrassed to buy it?

Will try to comb through LFC's will, don't know when though.

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1689
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From Abberline's many accounts in The Times it does appear that the sellers approached the potential buyers rather than the other way around. All Abberline had to do was stand around Whitechapel for a few minutes before some lad approached him with the offer of some 'porn'. He'd say thank you very much, hand over the cash, take possession of the porn and then handcuff the lad.
However, given my own assessment of Thomas' nature and character, you are probably right, he would have run a mile in any daylight situation where sex was the issue. A very private lad was Thomas, and I would imagine that he invested a good deal of imagination and effort into his home-made porn, and that imbued it with some magical property or the other which was part of the entire ritual.
Go on, Stan the author, take the bait!
No worries about the will, Robert, in a few days I'll be out of here for some time and in sunny Cairns, so will not be in contact much for that period anyway.
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 263
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

MUCH more satisfying to make the porn oneself,and when one has run out of glue at home...
Mags
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3786
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Debra, and we really appreciate the results you're coming up with.

Don't worry, we'll keep right on to the end of the road, and in public.

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1695
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Debra
If you get time please read the updated version available here as I've pushed things a little more there.
Your comments are appreciated.
I believe quite firmly that Robert Charles Linford is the man who will name the Ripper, and I couldn't give a monkey's banana whether it was Thomas Cutbush.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3789
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 6:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blimey!....but hang on, AP. If it does turn out to be Cutbush, then you will be the one who named the Ripper, not me. You beat me to it by just a few years.

Many thanks anyway!

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1698
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 6:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quite right, Robert
'If it turns out to be Cutbush...'

You have an eye for minor detail, and a quirky memory for oddments, an ability to remain cool under pressure, a willingness to admit when you are in the wrong, and you drink tea and puff fags.
The very man for the job.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2146
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 4:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just to set the record straight, as it does appear that I have been privately accused of tardiness - when not a complete disregard for the truth - in regard to Lord Grimthorpeís involvement in the Trafalgar Square riots of 1887, I would point the avid reader to The Times report of November 18th 1887 where the following are recorded as signing on as Special Constables to deal with the Fenian and Socialist rioters:

ĎLord Henry Brudewell Bruco, MP.
Lord Grimthorpe.
Lord Mandeville.
Colonel Hope, VC.
Colonel Vandeleur.
Colonel Kennett Henderson, CB.í

My thanks to Robert.
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Chris McKay
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 5:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Having researched the horological and other pursuits of Lord Grimthorpe, I came across your site.

Can you give me some evidence for Grimthorpe being a Special Constable? Seems rather unlikely to me since he was a Barrister.

Also, F Dent's will (Who did not design Big Ben, and was not clockmaker to the Queen) was contested in court the same year he died. So, there were no secrets about the will. Edmund Beckett did not illegally prepare the will, but it was indeed unwise for him to do so. Dent was an alcoholic who did not get on with his family, so the real situation was quite complex.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 4500
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 1:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, from the "Times" article :



Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2154
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 2:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris
thank you for dropping by.
I have nothing but respect for your massive knowledge on all things horological, and your input here is greatly appreciated.
Sorry about the mistake with Dent.
What about giving us your honest opinion on the connection between the Cutbush/Flood family and that of the Mears family of Whitechapel Foundry fame?
Also I would be interested to hear your views on the inter-marriage between the Taylor bell makers and the Mears of Whitechapel.
It does appear that properties owned by the Cutbush/Flood family may have actually formed part of the premises of the Whitechapel Foundry, and as I think you must know it was an employee of the Foundry who provided Lord Grimthorpe with the ammunition for the long winded libel action that took place over many years.
You don't happen to know the name of that employee do you?
Any thoughts you have would be more than welcome... and I apologise for being someone who I am.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2627
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 1:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks to the keys provided by Debra, I have been able to trawl out two interesting bits of information about Lord Grimthorpe.

Firstly he was a director and major share holder in one of the largest tea companies in London during the LVP.
As yet I have not been able to find the name of the tea company, but I would be a very pleased person to find out that it was K&T.

Secondly if we go back to the unusual fact that one of THCís direct male relatives married twice into the Mears family - the two daughters of the Whitechapel Foundry owner - something that was barely legal at that time in the LVP, it is then interesting to note that the prime mover behind the new laws allowing a man to wed his dead wifeís sister was none other than Lord Grimthorpe himself, who at the same time was fighting a massive legal battle through the courts with the father of the two sisters.
Could it really be that the Flood who married into the Mears family was the very same man who supplied Lord Grimthorpe with the hidden facts concerning Big Benís faulty casting, and that Lord Grimthorpe was paying a debt with his sudden enthusiasm for allowing a man to wed his dead brideís sister?
Nah, that canít be right.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5120
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 1:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great finds, AP. And if THC did his stair-throwing exercise at K&T, this might explain why nothing seemed to happen to him afterwards.

Robert
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 4:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Glad you are finding it useful AP, good finds.

I think that one of the Flood Page family, cousins to the Flood Cutbushes, is actually named as a supporter on one of the documents regarding Lord Grimthorpes bill to get the law changed, I forget which one though.
Debra
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2629
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 5:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Debra and Robert
This is good fun but the search engines take time to tame.
Iím getting there.

Regarding the Mears, there is this blip that always come up from that time period, it has as its basis:

ĎA conspiracy to take away a young woman, an heiress, from the custody of her friends, for the purpose of marrying her to one of the conspirators.í

Somehow connected with the fact that the girl was under the age of 21. A legal threshold of the time.

I canít remember the age of the Mears sisters at marriage, can you?
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5122
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 5:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AP, I've just referred to Debra's excellent Ancestry genealogy tree thingy, and I make them both 21.

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2631
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 6:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert
you have obviously fallen down the stairs.
Two sisters can't be both 21.
Unless they twins.
Oh no, not twins!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5123
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 6:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But he married them three years apart, AP. Confucius he say, wife take bloody long time to fall down stairs - especially if spiral staircase.

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2632
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 6:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Got your drift, Robert.
Sorry.
But I'm willing to bet that the first was under the age of 21... really.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 3003
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 5:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert
do you remember that Cutbush clock that I was going to buy you for Christmas last year?
Well, I bid ten pounds for it, but it went for a little bit more:

'The previous day, Christie's sold a highlight of Robert Gardiner's silver collection, a 1791 Southampton, N.Y., silver tankard by Elias Pelletreau, $156,000. Also from the estate, an English brass skeleton clock, the dial signed by John Cutbush Maidstone, circa 1690, fetched $26,400.'

Perhaps I should have gone to fifty?
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5431
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 6:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blast, and there was me bidding against you for it, AP. I could kick myself. We really must coordinate our efforts more.

Yours for $50,000. Good condition, except for the tea in the escapement.

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5432
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The will of Robert Cutbush, clockmaker of Maidstone in 1797 is in the death duty register, so he must have been worth a few bob.

Robert

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