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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Cohen, David » How do you answer questions about Anti-Semitism? « Previous Next »

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Eric Skinner
Sergeant
Username: Eric

Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Everyone,
I was talking to a friend at work today about JtR and mentioned that my favorite suspect is a Jew, namely David Cohen. He immediately asked why I suspected a Jew and, after we discussed the evidence which points in that direction, said that one of his first thoughts was that the theory was based partly on anti-Semitism. I explained that I do not believe it is but that I could see how people would get that impression if the evidence which backs it up was not presented.

So my question for you is; how do you answer charges that suspecting Cohen, Kosminski or the "unknown Polish Jew" is anti-Semitic? I would really like to hear your thoughts on this subject.
Thanks in advance,
Eric
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Eric,
I certainly think there is a strong possibility that there was bias against Jews around at the time of the JTR crimes and why not in the police force too therefore? Certainly some of the descriptions that people who could have been JTR were foreign looking would point to this and the reaction and botherment about the graffito. Would they have cared as much if it had said for example Blacksmiths are the..etc?
However, I don't think the fact you may suspect a Jew today makes you an anti semitic. You are not saying for example, anything that would suggest only Jews kill other people (this would be wrong and anti semitic therefore) you are saying the evidence as you understand it points to a Jew which is fair enough. Just as saying it may have been a homosexual would not necessarily make you homophobic.

The fact anti semitism unfortantly exists and did exist at the time does not automatically mean Jews are innocent but the fact someone is Jewish in itself should not be evidenece against them unless the evidence points somehow to this mattering.

You asked what I thought - thats what I think
cheers

Jennifer
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Eric Skinner
Sergeant
Username: Eric

Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jennifer,
Thanks for offering your opinion. I hadn't really considered the angle of whether putting forth a suspect from another ethnic group might be taken as prejudice. I also forgot that Anderson stressed in his memoirs that the Jewish suspect was not suspected because he was Jewish, but because his actions brought him to the attention of the authorities. I just wish Anderson had been a bit more specific.
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Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100

Post Number: 320
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course, the reason Anderson stressed that in his memoirs was because he had been accused of anti-semitism when his account was originally published in Blackwood's Magazine:
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-lightersidetext.html

Not unreasonably, I think, because - apart from the alleged identification - his argument amounts to an inference that the killer's family were protecting him, and a deduction from this that they were "low-class Polish Jews".

Chris Phillips

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Eric Skinner
Sergeant
Username: Eric

Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So how do those of us who support the Cohen/Kosminski theory answer charges of anti-Semitism that might come our way?
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Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott

Post Number: 113
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 9:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Eric,

One of the problems with the world today is political correctness. Being a white male means you can't talk about ANYTHING openly without being accused of something. The irony is that political correctness is an invention of the white man! Smart breed, aren't we? :-) As for your question, which is 'how do we answer questions about anti-semitism', just answer them honestly. Tell them that a Jew was the favored suspect of Sir Robert Anderson and he was allegedly identified by one of the few people believed to have seen the Ripper. The fact that Kosminski was a Jew shouldn't even really be a surface issue of discussing him as a suspect, but if it comes up, and some calls you an anti-semite, just tell them how obtuse and brainwashed by the media they are, and tell them to go eat some grass because they're behaving as mindless cattle. They'll shut up after that. Seems to work for me, though it's been a few weeks since I was called anti-semite (I get 'sexist', 'male chauvinist pig', and 'mysoginist' a lot more, and I adamantly deny being a mysoginist! :-). Anyway, the moral of the story is, don't hang with people that obtuse and you won't have anything to worry about.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Incidentally, I do not for a moment believe the Ripper was Kosminski or any other jewish immigrant.
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 377
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is just something one must swallow if we are to look dispassionately at the various pieces of evidence or the theories. The East End of London was the home of a large number of Jews. Therefore some suspicion of a Ripper who would be Jewish was destined to occur. If the area was only full of French Catholics, a theory involving a French Catholic would have occurred. The theory would be either right or wrong, but one can't dismiss it out of political correctness alone.

Being Jewish, I am concerned about real anti-Semitism. When I see someone insisting that the Ripper was a typical Jew who commits ritual murder, I will see somebody who is a racist writing that comment. But for someone pointing at Kosminski or Cohen - no there are logical reasons to consider those men as suspects. No more than for me to consider Druitt a typical English barrister killer or Chapman a typical Polish/American/English immigrant wife poisoner. If there is a name to the person it is the individual we concentrate on, not the groups he comes from.

Jeff
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 320
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 6:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jeff, Eric and everyone else,

I agree with Jeff wholeheartedly.
As I said just because non Jewish people can be ignorant scum and some were at the time that doesn't mean JTR can't be Jewish, it doesn't mean Jewish people didn't commit crimes. What would be plain wrong would be to argue that only a Jew could have done it, or that it couldn't have been a brit in any case, which I get the feeling may have been part of the attitude at the time?

It would be racist to dismiss others because they are not Jewish and only look for a Jewish suspect or to believe that there was something about being Jewish which made people mutilate prostitutes but i didn't hear anyone on this thread say that (certainly not Eric).




Jennifer
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Eric Skinner
Sergeant
Username: Eric

Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 8:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jeff, Jennifer and everyone else,
You both make very good points and are helping me collect my thoughts on this matter. Jeff's point that another ethnic group could have been implicated by having the crimes take place in and around a large concentration of them is well taken. Also, the point both of you made about dismissing or automatically assuming the crimes could only have been done by a member of a certain group is excellent as well.

We live in a society where we are sensitive to these matters, perhaps more than we should be, and I don't see that changing any time soon. In most ways it's a positive factor in that we don't need to go around using racial, ethnic or sexual slurs to describe people, but it can go too far. It was my hope that by discussing this matter with you, I would find help in developing arguments to address any questions on this issue that might come my way. I wanted to avoid that "deer in the headlights, what the heck do I say next" feeling that sometimes comes with questions like that. You've been doing just that and I'm grateful. Keep those thoughts coming guys. I truly appreciate it.
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RosemaryO'Ryan
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All,

Now the Neo-Cons have stormed the bastions of political volcabulary (global ripple effect), should we be looking for a Muslim? Hindu? Sikh?
Personally, I blame the Irish! Where-ever the Juwes gather in a quoram you can be sure their Rabbi is an Irishman.
Rosey :-)
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Vincent
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that a black man killed Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman. Of course I also think that the killer was O.J. Simpson, and he does happen to be black. If he were white I would still think he did it. Similarly you think that Cohen/Kosminsky was the ripper and there is little doubt that they happened to be Jewish. I do not believe that makes me a racist or you an anti-Semite but some might. I guess they would have to go on thinking that about me because I have little stomach for explaining things to fools.

Regards, Vincent
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Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott

Post Number: 115
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vincent,

Well put, my friend, and in far fewer words than I used!

Jennifer,

You wrote: "As I said just because non Jewish people can be ignorant scum and some were at the time that doesn't mean JTR can't be Jewish."

That is exactly correct,as would saying just because Jewish people can be ignorant scum and some were at the time that doesn't mean JTR can't be British."

All good points.

Eric,

How old are you? In your teens? You seem a bit timid. Don't worry so much about what people think of your honesty. As long as you're not intentionally heartless or cruel, you shouldn't get into trouble...much. Just read what Vincent said about 3 times or so until it sinks in, and follow that credo. However, I'd recommend not talking about JTR AT ALL at work, if you work around a lot of people.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 650
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 11:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All

I agree with most of what has already been said. However, looking at the situation with Jewish serial killers presents a problem. The only Jewish serial killer that I can find is David Berkowitz, the so called "Son of Sam", and even he was by no means a "Ripper" style killer.

I would be happy to be corrected if someone can come up with other examples of Jewish serial killers. I am not saying this would rule out Cohen and the other Jewish suspects, only that it would be rare if the Ripper was Jewish.

Speaking of anti-Semitism, I recall reading not too long ago an article by a gentleman who stated that his suspect was a Jew and combined murder with his tendency to seek money. That is anti-semitism.

All The Best
Gary
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Eric Skinner
Sergeant
Username: Eric

Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Everyone,
Gary,
There was a serial killer in Los Angeles in the 1950s named Harvey Glatman. He was infamous for binding and photographing his victims and then strangling them. He was captured and executed in the gas chamber at San Quentin Prison. His case was the inspiration for the original "Dragnet" movie starring Jack Webb.

Tom,
Nope, not even close on guessing my age. I'll be 40 in October. I don't see myself as timid, just cautious. I've just been burned too many times when dealing with other pc-related issues. I had a feminist professor verbally flay me when I called her a "lady" in my undergraduate years. Also I'm a white southern male and as soon as I open my mouth, people tend to make assumptions about my beliefs. It's very annoying. Since I've come to see Cohen/Kosminski as the most likely known suspect, I wanted to discuss this question with other people who study the case. Fore warned is fore armed, after all. I do better if I have my arguments lined up before hand so to speak.
Thanks to everyone,
Eric
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw

Post Number: 651
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 05, 2004 - 6:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Eric

I do recall having seen the photographs of Glatman's bound and gagged victims prior to his strangling them to death. They are are a good example of the stark reality of serial murder. He had sex for the first time at age 29 while raping a victim. The evidence suggests that the only sexual intercourse he ever experienced was while raping and/or killing a victim.

All The Best
Gary
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Ken Morris
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Eric-

Ive read over these threads and really think everyone has made excellent points, and you worries are just as justified. I just wanted to add one thing and hope it sets you where you need to be, kind of along the lines of what Jeff said. Im also a jewish male, and when one starts delving into the JtR mysteries there is no way to miss the Cohen/kosminski theory. But it has never once crossed my mind as someone who is Jewish to disregard or regard that theory based on that. I just don't think that way, and I would wager most people who look at JtR in a scholarly way don't use race at all either. I would just tell people the name of your favorite suspect, and if they question the religious background tell them it has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with the evidence supporting it. Maybe even include a non jewish person in the argument and explain why the evidence is week against them. But I think the easiest way to avoid the anti-semitic questions is just to avoid telling people your favorite suspect is "a jew" and tell them is was Aaron Kosminski.

Here's lookin at you kids-
Ken

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