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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Suspects » Cutbush, Thomas » Cutbush in the 1881 Census » Archive through April 13, 2004 « Previous Next »

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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 530
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

P.S. Of course going off on the tangent that John S. Hayne, born Philadelphia, British subject, age 35, land surveyor, could have been Thomas Hayne Cutbush's father, loses sight of the earlier information (Friday, March 14, 2003 - 8:20 am) posted by Chris Scott that "Kate Cutbush (Widowed) aged 33 born New York" daughter of John K. Hayne born Witney, Oxfordshire, age 71, was Thomas Cutbush's mother, and that she, apparently, had been married to a man named Cutbush since deceased. That line of reasoning explains the surnames better. Oh what tangled webs us humans weave... As ever, we need more information.

All the best

Chris

(Message edited by ChrisG on January 01, 2004)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 1722
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 1:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jeff

Thanks for posting that information. Definitely an angle worth following up.

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 1726
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Further to Jeff's post, there was in the 1881 census a Jno. B. Haynes, age 42, Police Constable, born Gosport, Hampshire. He was living with his wife and nine children (all born England) at 6 Alma Terrace, Lambeth, Surrey.

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 1732
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another one from 1881 census : Police Constable John C. Haynes, 35, born S Lukes Middlesex, living with wife and 5 daughters at Poplar Gr 2 Sidney Cott, Kingston on Thames, Surrey, England.

Robert
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 220
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

I only hope that something can come from looking into Police Sergeant Haynes. Wish I had more to add here.

Best wishes,

Jeff
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 535
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, all--

There is an interesting webpage on Neill Cream which states that John Haynes was a former New York City detective. See "Trust me, I’m your doctor: Thomas Neill Cream was a physician and a serial killer."

I also note that there was an Inspector Haynes of Scotland Yard who is mentioned in passing in Evans and Skinner's The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion.

All the best

Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 1748
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris

This infernal machine's playing up, and won't let me onto that site. Does the article give any more info on Haynes?

Robert
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 539
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, Robert:

The information about John Haynes and the capture of Neill Cream on the website that I cited is as follows:

". . . .what ultimately gave Cream away was his arrogance. Cream had befriended a former New York City detective named John Haynes, who was living in London trying to get a position in Scotland Yard. By this time, all of London was buzzing with news about the prostitutes’ murders. Because Haynes was a former detective, he was naturally engrossed in the cases; and he was surprised to hear how much his new friend Dr. Neill (Cream) knew about the details of the murders. After the men had supper one night, Cream actually took Haynes on a tour of the murder sites and talked at length about each of the victims, including Lou Harvey. When Haynes asked Cream how he knew so much about the murders, Cream claimed he had just been following the cases closely in the newspapers. But so had Haynes, and he didn’t recall any mention in the papers of a victim named Lou Harvey.

"Haynes immediately contacted a friend at Scotland Yard, Inspector Patrick McIntyre, who had been trying to get him a detective position. Following Haynes’ account, authorities soon discovered that Cream had forged passport paperwork claiming he was Thomas Neill. Soon police were trailing Cream around the clock, in addition to trying to solve the mystery of Lou Harvey. Many prostitutes gave police accounts of being approached by someone fitting Cream’s description (the prostitutes were eager to cooperate with authorities by this time—they were still haunted by Jack the Ripper’s murders in 1888). With mounting evidence against him, Cream was arrested on June 3, 1892."

It looks as if the information for the web article is probably derived, going by the references, from: McLaren, A. A Prescription for Murder: The Victorian Serial Killings of Dr. Thomas Neill Cream. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1995.

All the best

Chris


(Message edited by ChrisG on January 02, 2004)
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 12:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris,

I happen to have a copy of McLaren's A PRESCRIPTION FOR MURDER, so I looked through it to find what (if anything) it said about John
Haynes. It does not say he was a New York City
Detective, but what it hints at (on pages 111 - 113) is interesting regarding Haynes and the
Fenians and the Home Office.

"It is just possible that Cream's frequent trips back and forth across the Atlantic might have attracted the attention of agent Haynes, Sergeant McIntyre and Inspector Tunbridge [two other detectives involved in the capture of Cream], who was described in the press as "engaged in dynamite enquiries" and whose job it was to watch just such movements.27 [27. PALL
MALL GAZETTE 19 October 1892.] To counter the threat of Fenian terrorism, Sir Edward Jenkinson had assempbled a network of agents straddling England, Europe, and America."

The discussion goes into how both McIntyre and Haynes knew Le Caron/Beach, how in his career as a spy Beach had worked in the Joliet Prison as a health prisoner (about the time Cream was incarcerated there), and how Le Caron communicated with Anderson. Le Caron's cover was
smashed when he came forward to testify against
Charles Stewart Parnell at the "Parnellism and
Crime" hearings in the House of Commons (1889).
Le Caron's brilliant spy work was attacked by Parnell's supporters, but the solicitor of THE TIMES of London, Joseph Soames supported him.
On page 112 it says,

"Haynes was a curious character. He was trained as a ship's engineer and had worked for some time in the United States. He described himself as having made "inquiries for the British government" in both England and North America and spoke of knowing Le Caron "very well." How Haynes figured in Le Caron's penetrations of the Fenian movement was never made clear, but Haynes intimated that he had worked for the British govenment in some capacity in America in 1890 and in London in 1892 regarding anarchist dynamite explosions. Haynes spotted the plain clothes officers tailing him and Cream along Westminster Bridge Road on 18 May and protested to the duty officer at the Kennington Road Police Station. To prove his importance, he stated that he thought
that he was perhaps being tracked by "enemies of the government", and further declared that he knew
Chief Inspectore Littlechild"32 [32. Littlechild was used to dealing with police spies, or "narks," such as Haynes. See John George Littlechild, THE REMINISCENCES OF CHIEF INSPECTOR
LITTLECHILD (London: Leadenhall Press, 1894).]
Haynes, once informed of why the police were following Cream, offered his services in keeping him under observation. The subject of poisons was clearly broached since Haynes volunteered that he had seen Cream's leather case of pills.
At the end of the report on Haynes's interview, the question was put forward whether Haynes could be relied on. An unidentified officer at Scotland Yard wrote in the margin, "no."33 [33. Scotland Yard, 19 May 1892, MEPO 2 144. See also J. B. Tunbridge Report, 28 May 1892, MEPO 3 144.]"

Cream's defense barrister, Gerald Geoghegan, tried to disparage Haynes's testimony by showing he was too interested in getting a job in either the Liverpool or London police forces. Haynes mentioned being linked to Joseph Soames of THE TIMES, and having a testimonial from Sir Edward
Jenkinson.

After Cream's conviction and execution, Haynes received an allowance of 10 shillings a week, but the Yard would not give him any job. He talked of suicide, but this did not move Yard officials (including Sir Robert Anderson). They were willing (if he was needed) to use him for witness purposes, but not to employ him. That
basically ended his usefulness. Interestingly enough, a similar dead end concluded Sergeant McIntyre's career. McIntyre was involved in watching anarchists, and showed too much sympathy about the editor of COMMONWEAL, Charles Mowbray, whom he had to arrest. In October 1894 McIntyre
was demoted and dismissed from the police force.
The reason is still obscure. The following year,
McIntyre wrote a serialized version of his memoirs, "Scotland Yard - It's Mysteries and Methods" for REYNOLD'S NEWSPAPER, in which he showed the use of agent provocateurs and entrapment by the police against Fenians.

Unfortunately, nothing in McLaren's interesting book (which I recommend) mentions any of the
Cutbush family.

A number of years ago, I wrote an essay about Cream's poisoning case for THE CRIMINOLOGIST, concentrating on the undervalued blackmail letters sent to Frederick Smith, Lady Russell, Dr. William Broadbent, and Joseph Harper. I briefly touched on a possible link of Cream to pro-Irish sympathies (a hard thing to totally prove due to the selfish personality involved).
Fred Smith was the son of W.H.Smith, the book store magnate and Tory member of Parliament, who was the leader of the Tories in the House of Commons while Lord Salisbury was Prime Minister (but in the House of Lords). [W.H.Smith had also been Disraeli's First Lord of the Admiralty, and the model of Sir Joseph Porter in "H.M.S. Pinafore".] Known for his probity and seeming integrity, he died the same week that Charles Parnell died. Parnell, of course, died in relative disgrace because of the O'Shea Divorce Case, his Home Rule Movement in seeming splinters.
The newspapers (led by Parnell's old foe, THE TIMES) attacked the Irish leader, and held up Smith as a model of statesmanship and integrity.
I suggested in my article that Cream might have
selected Fred Smith as a blackmail target because of his anger at the smearing of Parnell in favor of Fred Smith's father.

I also pointed out another interesting point about another blackmail victim - one who testified at Cream's trial with devestating effect. Dr. Broadbent was also accused of poisoning one of the prostitutes, but it was one
(Ellen Donworth) who was not known to have been poisoned at the time the letter was written (except by the killer). What I pointed out was
that Dr. Broadbent made his reputation to high rank among society doctors in December 1891/January 1892 by treating two patients. First he treated Prince George, the Prince of Wales younger son, for typhoid. He saved George's
life. It was at this point that Cream wrote a blackmail letter to Broadbent. Broadbent turned the letter over to the police. Then the second patient came, but he was less fortunate. Broadbent failed to save the Duke of Clarence, on January 14, 1892, from dying of influenza and
pneumonia (officially the cause of his death). Shortly after Cream fled to America for nearly two months, returning in late March/early April.
He may have missed that the Royal Family did not hold a grudge against Broadbent, but appointed him a royal physician to the Prince of Wales, and gave him a Baronetcy. In my article, I suggested that the sudden concentration of interest in Cream may have been due to his attempt to blackmail Broadbent (who would have to be checked out thoroughly before he could be given an appointment to the Royal Family).

Best wishes,

Jeff

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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 1749
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 4:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris and Jeff

Thanks very much for that information. Yes, Haynes is an interesting figure, regardless of whether or not he had any connection with the Cutbush case.

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 1750
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 7:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had a look for the deaths of John K. Hayne, aged 71 in 1881, and of Annie Hayne his wife, aged 75 in 1881. The best bets on Free BMD seemed to be John Lewis Hayne Sept 1882 aged 72 registered St Saviour, and Annie Hayne age 79 Mar 1886 registered St Saviour - although there is also an Anne Hayne same year same quarter same district same age!

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2337
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the 1891 census at 14 Albert St Newington were living Elizabeth Hayne, 47, single, living on own means, born Oxfordshire ; Kate Cutbush, sister, 43, widow, shopwoman china trade, born Philadelphia, British subject ; and Guiseppa Petrole, an Italian lodger. No sign of Thomas. Kate's name has been transcribed as "Cutbirth".

Curiously, there was another Cutbush family in Newington whose name was mistranscribed as "Cutbirth". That one did include a Thomas, but he was 32 and a hop porter.

Interesting that Kate has switched her birthplace from New York to Philadelphia, where John S Hayne came from.

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Robert
I'm not sure which date was the date of the 1891 census, but by the end of April 1891 Thomas should have been kicking his heels in his luxury apartment at Broadmoor.
As I think you will remember, it is now thought that there were two Super. Cutbush's in the London police forces - I still do not not know whether both were in the Metropolitan - so could this be the other? Probably not, as usually the occupation is given.
The transciption of Cutbush as 'Cutbirth' is a jolly isn't it?
Interesting about Kate. Do we know where she was married yet? I did find a marriage at the right time with the right names in Texas - but that doesn't seem right.
What was it WC Fields wanted inscribed on his tombstone?
'On the whole I'd rather be in Philadelphia.'
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2338
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP

The Thomas 'Cutbirth' who was a hop porter had a dad Thomas who was a commercial traveller. As far as I can make out, the younger Tom was still portering his hops ten years later.

Re uncle Charles, he's listed as living in Lambeth with his family in 1891.

There is a Charles Cutbush police Inspector in the 1901 census. As far as I can tell, this Charles Cutbush was a police Sergeant in 1891.

The census was for the night of April 5th. I've been inside Broadmoor (electronically speaking) but as far as I can see, Tom wasn't there.

I had a look on Free BMD for Kate's marriage. I couldn't find anything exciting, except that apparently one Annie Chapman Cutbush got married around that time!

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1025
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Robert
then we must assume that on the night of April 5th 1891 both Thomas and uncle Charles were at the Seaside Home shooting seagulls.
Uncle Charles 'doing the Lambeth Walk' and Thomas 'beside himself'.
Annie Chapman Cutbush is a jolly as well.
Actually I would have thought that young Thomas would have passed through several different holding pens before he ended up in the Matrix of Broadmoor for good. That still happens today. Could have taken up to a year.
You know I find it almost impossible to believe that you could have two uncle Charles', but that does appear to be the case. I still want to know which one it was that was covered in self-harm wounds at his death.
Must write a poem about the 'Cutbirth' family.
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack

Post Number: 236
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 5:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert, AP

Robert, the Charles Cutbush you mention is probably the one who was Station Police Sergeant for H Division between 1896 and 1898. Before that he was mostly stationed in C Division (Soho), and after that as an Inspector in E Division (Bow Street). Between 1902 and 1905 he was Sub Divisional Inspector for firstly P Division and then D Division and finally Chief Inspector in L Division between 1905 and 1908 when he retired.

All the best

Rob
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2339
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP, Rob

AP, I wouldn't be surprised if he had been institutionalised for a fair part of the period '88 - '91. That might explain why they came down so heavily on him and sent him to Broadmoor (apart from their maybe thinking he was JTR, of course!)

Rob, you're obviously pretty clued up about the police. I just wanted to be sure that the Alfred Long of Goulston St fame wasn't the Alfred Long of the 1901 census, Sergeant aged 39. In other words, that Long wasn't reinstated some time after his dismissal?

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2340
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

PS Rob, many thanks for that info on Charles Cutbush.

Robert
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1136
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all
There certainly is a Charles Cutbush in the police force listed in 1891 and he is of appropriate age and place of birth to be Thomas' uncle compared with his census entry for 1881.
Address;
3 Burnley Road, Stockwell, Lambeth
Head:
Charles Cutbush aged 47 born Ashford, Kent - Superintendent Met. Police.
Wife:
Ann Cutbush aged 47 born New Romney, Kent
Children:
Amelia aged 23 born Westminster - Clerk Civil Service
Helen aged 20 born Westminster
Winifred aged 15 born St Martin's
Caroline aged 13 born Newington, Surrey
Albert H aged 7 born Newington, Surrey

Mother of head of household:
Amelia Cutbush aged 77 born Hythe, Kent - widow

ccut1891
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1137
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If Thomas Cutbush was institutionliased at the time of the 1891 census then we have to bear two things in mind:
1) He would only by listed by his initials
2) These initials were listed surname first.
So, instead of looking for a Thomas Cutbush we would be looking for an entry listed as CT or possibly CTH, if they included the Haynes part of his name.
The only other firm info would be his age at the time of the census i.e. 25.
Under the initials CT ther is only one 25 year old inmate listed and he is a lunatic inmate at the District London County Asylum, Banstead, Surrey
The scant info is given as follows:
C.T.
Lunatic Inmate
Single
Age 25
Former profession: Servant
Where born: Unknown

I can find no appropriate entry under the CTH combination, of course, there is no way of saying that this is Thomas Cutbush, only that if he was in an institution at the time of the census this is how his entry would appear
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2344
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris

Thanks very much for that. Of course, the occupation's wrong but if he was being shunted around from one institution to the next during these few weeks, it's easy to see how they could lose his notes.

Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just like Robert I believe young Thomas would have spent much of his time in institutions between 1888 and his reappearance on the streets in 1891. It is obvious from the statements made at his trial that the family were having problems with him, and uncle Charles has not stepped in, 'officially' anyway, having probably been advised by the Met, to keep his nose out of the trial. Uncle Charles had a plethora of daughters and his single son was perhaps too young for the 'father-son' relationship to develop fully, so I have always felt that Thomas and Charles would have had a strong relationship.
I do wonder whether Thomas might have been logged in records as Thomas Hayne?
Or even 'Cutbirth'?
Must write that poem.
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack

Post Number: 239
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Robert

I use the Police Orders web site www.policeorders.co.uk which is a very useful site.
There are two Alfred Long's listed for that period. The other one joined 16/3/1885 and was stationed in C Division. By the time of the 1901 census he was Police Sergeant working for C.I.D in L Division. No ages are given but I would assume this is the one you found in the 1901 census.

All the best

Rob
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2345
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Rob

Thanks for that. It looks like a great site.

Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2346
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP

Re the marriage, I started checking the records for the years immediately preceding 1866, and then I thought "Hang on a minute. Better check whether AP's already done it."

Robert

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