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Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 405
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:20 am: |       |
Sarah,
That's pretty much what I have been saying all along. If Barnett stuttered (and we don't really know whether he did or not) it is quite possible that it was due to the stress of the moment and not indicative of a speech disorder.
 |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 539
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:23 am: | |
Hi All
Just to throw this into the mix, people from some areas of North Dublin stutter as part of their accent. I think it is because they talk so fast that they stutter while their brain catches up with their mouth. This may not be what causes it, but certainly it is not a speech disorder unless speech disorders can affect a locality rather than just an individual.
I don't know if there are other parts of the world where this is the case, but it is another example of how someone with no actual speech disorder can stutter. |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 974
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:57 am: | |
Ally,
I knew I was agreeing with you somewhere in all that. I think I confused myself halfway through.
Is there any evidence that Barnett stuttered at any other time than at Mary's inquest, not that I'm saying there is any proper evidence that he stuttered at all there, although I don't know why the papers would make THAT up.
Alan,
I think it is because they talk so fast that they stutter while their brain catches up with their mouth.
Don't go saying things like that about the Irish, unless you want to open up the whole "jokes about the Irish" thing. 
Sarah |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 916
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:59 am: | |
Guys,
This is soooo entertaining....erm I mean educational,
Arkwright Monty...Ger-G-Ger-Granville.
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 209
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:27 pm: | |
Alan,
I agree. I know someone raised in Belfast (different accent, much slower speech pattern), moved to the northern area of Dublin, talks super fast and stutters after 5 years of living there. I have noticed this same phenomenon amongst American youth. I truly believe that is has much to do with the speed at which one attempts to speak. When someone is nervous, their heart rate goes up, their rate of speech is faster and it seems that they have a tendency to stutter. I believe Joe's stuttering could be nervousness. This might also cause him to repeat the last thing he heard or said as he was nervous and was clarifying to himself before he answered. What do you think gang?
Mikey |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 920
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
Mikey,
Yeah, works for me that nerves thing.
The odd thing is that when Im in certain situations and Im nervous I slow down. Depends on the situation though admittedly, usually court appearences, which I suppose is a situation Joe would have been in.
Maybe its due to me being coached that way.
Also, when in the witness box, if we are asked a question we have no answer to, we are told to ask for a repeat. This is obviously to gain a little thinking time. Highly unlikely with Joe but there is a possibility he could have been coached as well.
My 10 sheckels anyhoo,
Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 211
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:55 pm: | |
Monty,
In my work, I am called upon to appear in court frequently. I am prepped by our Attorney mainly to prevent the surprised or nervous response. Would they have prepped Barnett in that way, or would they merely have coached him in what they were looking for as far as answers? I think a layman would be nervous in a court situation period.
Mikey |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 756
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 2:51 pm: | |
Hi Guys,
As co-writer of the intended book, I must defend Leanne, this stuttering , stammering, has grown out of proportion, as Leanne , has stated it is not mentioned as a plus against Barnetts guilt.
Obviously if he was innocent , or guilty, he would be stressed, that is stating the obvious.
The answering of questions ,put to him at the inquest, when he repeated the last line of the question , to start his own account, would indicate to me , if anything that he was thoughtfully, giving the answers, and trying to be precise, which could indicate, he was scared of making a mistake.
We are not telling the world Joe Barnett, killed these women, or even Joe Barnett, killed kelly, we have simply named him the number one suspect, with the imformation, that we have aquired.
Regards Richard. |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 280
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 3:46 pm: | |
Leanne,
You seem to be having difficulty in differentiating a normal occurrence from a "disorder".
Let me try this.
People who cannot see at any time are clinically blind.
Putting a normal sighted person in a pitch black room makes them unable to see.
This person, however, is not "clinically blind" despite having the exact same "symptom" when under this specific condition (symptom: they cannot see; but only when there's no light - the situation).
Now, being put in a pitch black room is not the cause of being "clinically blind". Although it causes the same symptom of "blindness" in the normally sighted, it is not the cause of the blindness in the "clinically blind".
Now, this is the same situation as we have with "speech disorder".
People who stutter/stammer all the time have a speech impediment we call "a stutter".
Normal people will stutter and stammer when under stress and nervous situations (symptom: stutter/stammer; stressful or nervous situation - the situation).
People with the speech disorder called "a stutter" do not have this disorder because they are stressed/nervous all the time or because they suffered some stressful situation in their past. Despite the fact that stress or nerves causes the same symptom in normal speaking people, it is not the underlying cause of the "clinical disorder of stuttering" in those who stutter.
I hope you will have noticed that this is just like clinical blindness is not caused by having been in a pitch black room at some time in the past.
Does that help?
- Jeff |
Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 188
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 4:12 pm: | |
Richard,
A thoughtful, reasoned post -- and you didn't stutter or stammer once. I would agree that Barnett was careful not to make a mistake, but I wouldn't read anymore into it than that (and maybe you were not suggesting more).
I once made the mistake of giving a flippant answer to the IRS (federal tax agency) and was made to suffer by being audited for several years running. So, even with nothing to hide (and I wish I had income to hide), whenever I now deal with the bureaucracy I am very, very careful. Point being that avoiding a mistake in such a situation need not suggest guilt.
Don. |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 526
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
It seems to me that there can be times when an apparent "speech disorder" is actually nothing more than glue ear!Lots of young children have
this problem due to the after effects of colds
but as a result they have intermittent hearing difficulties which in turn can cause them to
not be able to either distinguish variations of sounds in words accurately or to "reproduce" those sounds accurately.Their speech can be indistinct and they can[and quite often do]get diagnosed as having a "speech" disorder and are referred to "speech Therapists" and the term is written down on their records as such!Strictly speaking though it isnt is it?
Natalie |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:33 am: | |
In the US stammering does not mean stuttering at all. Stammering is like when you are really nervous and trying to get something out (like asking a girl out on a date) where as stuttering is a specific disorder. They are not interchangeable.
I would never use the word stammering to indicate stuttering, it would definitely be misunderstood, but if you guys say that that is not so in the UK, Australia, etc, I will take your word for it.
But, here in the US, they are definitely different things.
At any rate, stuttering/stammering are not the same thing as repeating the last words of a question, so the newspapers that you are sighting have conflicting reports, even if stammering and stuttering are the same in the UK.
Leanne,
Please excuse my ignorance from my previous post, as I did not know that stammering and stuttering were considered interchangeable in the UK, because as I said they are different things here.
Tim |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 12:50 am: | |
G'day,
My boyfriend told me a story today about a time when his sister's boss rang his place. He answered the phone and had to answer questions regarding her whereabouts. He didn't want to get his sister into trouble, so he "Ummmmed"and "Ahhhhhed", hesitated and stuttered a bit.
Looking at this example we can see that the stutterer was trying to hide the truth about something, and was stalling for time, thinking about his words before he spoke them.
TIM: Give up mate. STAMMERING and STUTTERING are the same thing!!! I got that information from several Websites.
LEANNE
(Message edited by Leanne on March 24, 2004)
(Message edited by Leanne on March 24, 2004) |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 1:03 am: | |
G'day Tim,
Read this mate:
http://www.speechfoundation.com/faq.htm
LEANNE |
Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 1:35 am: | |
Leanne,
Even if they are the same (and I can tell you they are not used in the american dialect as the same thing) There is absolutely no evidence that is was not a one time occurence for Barnett.
So according to your thinking because I stammer or stutter, I am lying or stalling for time when I talk about my mother. I take exception to that. Do you not see there are no absolutes when it come to this subject.
Vlad
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 3:36 am: | |
G'day Vlad,
NO. The example I just gave applies to someone who has never stuttered before or since!
LEANNE |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 923
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 4:27 am: | |
Mikey,
I agree. Joe still would be nervous. I know I am.
It was just a thought.
Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end... |
Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 979
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 5:05 am: | |
Vlad,
I'm sorry but stammering and stuttering are the same thing. From the above link that Leanne gave it says "Stammering and Stuttering mean exactly the same condition. It is called 'Stammering' in England while Americans call it Stuttering. No difference."
Leanne,
Your boyfriend must also have been nervous because he was hiding the truth so it does come back down to nerves/stress in the end. As I said above, stress doesn't cause the disorder of stuttering but stress can make a normal person stutter on occasion.
Sarah |
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 411
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 5:59 am: | |
Leanne,
It's nice to know that you have finally conceded that people who do not have a speech disorder can stutter when under stress.
Cheers,
Ally
|
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 413
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 6:13 am: | |
And Leanne,
Stop relying on websites for your information. In the US, stammering and stuttering do have slightly different meanings. For the purposes of this discussion, they are identical because stammering is what it is officially called in Britain and stuttering is what it is officially called in the US but technically in the US, they do present differently and speech therapists will use stammering to mean a non-stutterer.
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 4:29 pm: | |
G'day Ally,
Who said I've conceded????? I just want to have a relaxing holiday! I still haven't read any proof.
And I spent ages last night exploring Websites (even dictionary ones, American and British, Encarta etc) that all say that stammering and stuttering are exactly the same thing! It doesn't matter how individuals chose to use the words.
I am now, at this very moment looking up the word 'STUTTER' in my 'Large Print English Dictionary', and it says: 'v To stammer. *n a stammer.'
LEANNE
|
Ally
Inspector
Username: Ally
Post Number: 420
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 4:45 pm: | |
Ah Leanne..so your boyfriend is either a liar or suffering from an undiagnosed speech disorder. Which is it?
And if you look up "bomb" in that dictionary, I doubt it will give you the definition "cool" but that is how it is used over here.
Ciao.
|
Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir
Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 5:33 pm: | |
Leanne,
Are you saying that every word is used exactly as it is described in the dictionary? If so, you would never get along here in the US.
Remember you can get any information YOU WANT to get off the internet.
I went to Dictionary.com and looked up stuttering. And while I got a definition of, to stammer, on the same page I received a definition saying that stuttering is distinguished from Stammering.
1 ) stuttering
Stutter \Stut"ter, v. t. & i. [imp. & p. p. Stuttered; p. pr. & vb. n. Stuttering.] [Freq. of stut, OE. stoten; probably of Dutch or Low German origin; cf. D. & LG. stotteren, G. stottern, D. stooten to push, to strike; akin to G. stossen, Icel. stauta, Sw. st["o]ta, Dan. st["o]de, Goth. stautan, L. tundere, Skr. tud to thrust. Cf. Contuse, Obtuse.] To hesitate or stumble in uttering words; to speak with spasmodic repetition or pauses; to stammer.
2 ) stuttering
\Stut"ter*ing, n. The act of one who stutters; -- restricted by some physiologists to defective speech due to inability to form the proper sounds, the breathing being normal, as distinguished from stammering.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=stuttering
So there is a difference or there isn't depending on what you are looking for. But aren't England and the US two countries divided by the Atlantic Ocean, wait, I mean a common language?
But all this being said, it has nothing to do with Barnett, as far as I know and could find, his inquest testimony was the only time he stuttered, stammered, repeated the last words spoken to him. This would not indicate a person with a stuttering disorder, on the contrary it would point to a man under undo stress, who was extremely nervous.
Have a wonderful day,
Vlad |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2251
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 6:06 pm: | |
Hi all
I still can't quite believe that fruit hawking would be something that would come easily to a man with a speech impediment.
Joe would have been very nervous at the inquest. Let's not forget that he'd had to leave Buller's over the weekend and seek refuge at his sister's on account of the landlord's displeasure at the amount of Press activity he was attracting.
Robert |
Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 281
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 6:48 pm: | |
Leanne,
While your searching the web, you should look for some local speech therapists. You might want to discuss this with your boyfriend first though, but if he is interested in getting over his stutter, a lot of people with a stutter can overcome it.
- Jeff |
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