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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 8:13 pm: |       |
Hi Julia,
Pimping did exist in the late 19th century, but as some of us have stated here, it was mostly the women's boyfriends that acted as such.
In Denmark, for example, there also at the same time seem to have existed some sort of organized activity of prostitutes centred around a pimp. I believe it wasn't as common as it has become in modern times (as you say, being a prostitute was mostly something you did on your own), but it apparently did exist, although I am not sure about how things worked in London.
Regarding Hutchinson,
"...why would he stand outside while she was being possible murdered inside? Wouldn't it have made more sense to actually do something."
Maybe he didn't hear or noticed anything? We can't be sure that the cry of "Murder" really did originate from Kelly. Just a thought...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1075
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:19 am: | |
G'day,
ALAN: Your name will go in the Hutchinson chapter, and do you want us to give your  a plug?
Perhaps Hutchinson confided his 'occupation' to Abberline on the 12th of November, and Abberline paid him by pretending not to hear!
Perhaps Hutchinson walked away after 45 minutes and thought: "I'll ask her for a fee tomorrow."
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:34 am: | |
G'day,
It would explain why he was so concerned, very observant, but gave up after a long wait as if his 'job' was finished.
LEANNE |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 352
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 8:28 am: | |
Julia
To answer your questions:
1. Hutchinson clearly stated that he did not suspect the man at the time of being the murderer.
2. We have many references to the fact that Mary was much younger and prettier than the average Whitechapel streetwalker. Also she had her own private room, which was unusual. While the likes of Annie Chapman and Polly Nichols would not be likely to have had a pimp, I could well imagine that Mary would have "used the services" of someone who could procure for her a better class of higher paying customer.
Leanne
Probably not, as it would be very embarrassing if I was then unable to find a publisher! But thanks anyway, always nice to see your name in print! |
Robert J. McLaughlin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 2:26 am: | |
Hi Leanne,
I wrote an article for Ripperoo #10 entitled 'Hutchinson's Wait' that you may find interesting.
Also, "bully" was another Victorian name for a pimp.
All the best, |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 489
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 4:45 pm: | |
Hi Julia
As an unregistered guest your posts won't appear until Stephen can enter them. I believe he has been out of town recently.
All The Best
Gary |
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 374
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 4:50 pm: | |
Julia
Have alook onM.J.K or not M.J.K. have had a bit of a say on the Hutch/Mary thing on that board!!
Let's not cross boards here!! Praps we should start another one Mary and Hutch..more than friends? .....yes??
All best
Suzi (Register!!!) |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 490
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
P.S.
So old Hutch was a fancy-man? I don't recall reading any descriptions of him which described him as a dandy. There is nothing sadder than a down on his luck pimp. His modern day equivalent probably couldn't even afford a Cadillac.
Gary |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1079
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 1:46 am: | |
G'day,
The 'Evening Star' of Washington reported in an editorial: 'He [Hutchinson] may be a convenient person to have about at a critical stage of the investigation which is soon to follow.' Convenient? Convenient? How???? I reckon Abberline knew something about him that he wanted to keep to himself!!
LEANNE |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 651
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 6:10 am: | |
Hi All,
Sarah,
Going back to an earlier post of yours, I meant that I wondered if GH may have come back first thing and done exactly what Bowyer did later, only said and did nothing about it for fear of being exposed as Mary’s ponce and putting himself under immediate suspicion as her killer too. In this scenario, seeing the killer at work, or being unable to see anything at all doesn’t come into it. I was suggesting the killer was already out of there, and that GH did discover her body by looking through the window in early daylight.
Yes, time is money, and I was speculating that Mary, with her own room, would no doubt have charged more for customers requesting a long session, and if GH was waiting to collect, then the longer he had to wait the more cash he would have been hoping to get his hands on when chummy had finally filled his boots. But 45 minutes later, assuming it must be an all-nighter, GH called it a day – if you see what I mean – rubbing his hands at the thought of slipping back between sun-up and the arrival of the rent man, and collecting the proceeds of all that time with the meter running.
This could also explain Mary’s rent arrears, if GH started collecting on a Thursday night before the rent man could collect on a Friday morning. And he may have been more of an amateur opportunist than an experienced ponce, recently having taken advantage of Joe’s absence to start creaming off the spoils of a young alcoholic with no man and no hope, leaving her with so little she had to beg for her next drink. He may not have thought ahead to the day Mary would finally be evicted for her arrears. He could always do the same with the next desperate tenant.
In this scenario, Mary would have been far more in GH’s clutches than his own testimony suggested – obviously – and one can imagine her expressing a wish to do away with herself if she could see no way out – the only way was down. Joe couldn’t help her now. Catch 22 – she could hardly explain to McCarthy why he was never going to see a penny in back rent.
If any of this is true, GH could well have confessed some if not all of it to the police, exchanging his information about the big-spending customer for a guarantee that no action would be taken against him if he spoke up, and that specific details about his own role would remain confidential and off the record.
Too bad that his information didn’t lead anywhere, but that wouldn’t tell us how seriously it was taken. Since the ripper was never caught, they could hardly have accused GH of perjury, even if the information he traded was not considered credible.
Love,
Caz
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 477
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:30 am: | |
Caz,
Oh right. Sorry, I thought you meant the GH would have gone to have a look after the 45 minuted had passed where the killer (if the man he saw was the killer) would be cutting her up.
Collecting his money on a Thursday night/early Friday morning would explain why Mary was slipping slowly into debt. Although, I would have thought he would have collected it every night or morning.
Sarah |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 156
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 4:38 pm: | |
Hi Julia,
“I don't know the whole story that Frank refers to...what is that about a long trip in cold wet weather from Romford?”
In his official account, Hutchinson says he can’t lend Mary Kelly a sixpence, because he spent all his money going down to Romford, which is about 10 miles from Spitalfields. If George had to walk the distance (which would not have been strange), it would have taken him about three hours.
Furthermore, witness Mary Ann Cox said at the inquest that it had rained that night and that she had returned to her room several times to warm up. Also the weather conditions (check this http://casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html) of that time tell us that is was a cold and rainy night.
All the best,
Frank
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Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 389
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 5:30 pm: | |
Hi all
Brilliant ideas buzzing around here but,, I still can't quite get over the idea that Mary and Hutch were 'more than chums' there is wa warmth about those two , a strange sort of linking that suggests a 'history' of some kind.. Can't get this out of my mind,,seems to be right..come on we've all done it!! who do you go to to borrow (6d!!)..your old 'mate'!!
cheers
Suzi |
Michael Blayne Raney
Sergeant
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 5:46 pm: | |
I agree, would you ask someone that was barely an aquaintance? or would you be more likey to ask someone that you knew you could pay back? Maybe sooner than later? Just a thought.
Mikey |
Vladimir
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 6:04 am: | |
But who's word do we have that she actually asked him for money? GH hisownself. He could be lying about everything. I do not think he was Jack, but I do not think everything he did that night was as innocent as he makes it out to be.
Vlad |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 659
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 9:28 am: | |
Hi Sarah,
I didn’t mean to imply GH only collected on a Thursday, if he was poncing off Mary. But he would be silly not to do so if rent day was Friday.
Love,
Caz
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 3:12 pm: | |
G'day Caz,
He could have collected off her the next Thursday, or if he 'worked' more than Thursdays, the next time she asked for his services.
LEANNE |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 158
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 3:40 pm: | |
Hi Suzi,
I agree with Vlad here. We’ve only got George’s account to go from and he could have told anything regarding his relationship with Mary and the encounter with Mary and her punter on that fateful night. If true, Mary couldn’t confirm his story and the posh chap wouldn’t, if he was the Ripper.
Take care,
Frank
|
Suzi Hanney
Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 395
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 4:17 pm: | |
Hi all
Ok we only have Hutch's word that Mary asked him for the ubiquitous 6d!!..I think (IMHO) that she probably did..if she met Hutch ,recognised him and thought..good old George..he'll be good for 6d she would have asked him ,recieving a no no she would have carried on up the road,'worth a try' I feel would have been in her mind!! Might have given George (as Pimp) something to think about though..!
Cheers
Suzi |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 661
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:12 pm: | |
Hi All,
If Mary really did ask him to lend her money, either to keep the rent man happy, or for a bite to eat and a drink or three (wonder when she had the fish and potatoes?), it may have been more a case of GH saying, “On your bike, girl, you’re the one with a room for the night, you can earn it the same as you normally do, and the harder you work the more you might have left over after I've taken what I need for meself.”
Love,
Caz
(Message edited by Caz on January 22, 2004) |
Frank van Oploo
Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 160
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 6:30 pm: | |
Hi all,
Regarding George Hutchinson as a ponce, there are still a number of things that don’t add up, they remain unexplained or odd even if we assume that Hutchinson really was a pimp.
I want to start by saying that I think it’s fair to assume the article about Hutchinson in the London Times of 14 November is true, meaning there’s no reason to believe he didn’t actually say the things he said in this article. The bigger part of the article is corroborated by Hutchinson’s own official statement and by Abberline’s report concerning this statement. Abberline had interrogated Hutchinson himself and if Hutchinson would have said anything in that newspaper article that was significantly different to what he said to Abberline, I think Abberline would have interrogated Hutchinson again, regardless of whether Hutchinson had disclosed to Abberline he was Mary’s pimp or not. And as far as we know, Abberline didn’t.
- Hutchinson’s suspicions were aroused by seeing a man so well dressed in the company of a Spitalfield’s prostitute, in other words he thought the man looked out of place there. Strangely, Hutchinson also claimed in the 14 November article he believed the man lived in the neighbourhood.
- On Monday Hutchinson said Mary’s punter could be identified. Yet, in the newspaper article in which he even contended he could swear to the man anywhere, he said he fancied seeing him on Petticoat Lane on Sunday morning, but wasn’t sure.
- Hutchinson was able to give a very detailed description of Mary’s client, he could even determine - looking in the direction of the light - that his eyes and lashes were dark, but didn’t tell anything much of importance about the man’s face. Was it skinny, chubby, round, long? Did he have pronounced cheek-bones? Were his eyes big, small, blue, brown? It strikes me as strange that he did tell everything there was to know about the man’s clothes, and also some things about his face, but he left out the important and distinguishing features of this face.
- Assuming Hutchinson ‘the ponce’ genuinely wanted to help, despite his efforts, despite the police’s efforts and despite the fact that his description of the wealthy man was made public, the man who – according to Hutchinson, and perhaps on second thoughts – lived in the neighbourhood wasn’t found. As far as we know, it didn’t yield any new leads, not one.
- Also as far as we know, both Hutchinson and the man he saw with Kelly seem to have vanished very soon after they appeared on the stage, and aren’t mentioned later by any of the important players in the Ripper case, which is a bit strange if you believe the ‘ponce theory’, according to which George was genuinely trying to help the police.
- On the one hand Hutchinson’s description was quite different from the ones given by other witnesses, on the other it consists of several bits and pieces from other witnesses’ descriptions of men being seen with previous victims. There’s the foreigner from Elizabeth Long (and from the Goulston Street graffito), there’s the respectable appearance and the carrying of a parcel from P.C. Smith, there’s the long coat from James Brown, there’s the red neckerchief from Joseph Lawende, there’s the well dressed man from James Blenkinshop and there’s the roughly average age of 32-33 and the roughly average size of 5’6”- 5’7” from all of the descriptions. By the way, the parcel Hutchinson talks about in the newspaper article wasn’t there in his official statement.
- At the bottom of the article George Hutchinson stated that after he left the court he had walked about all night, as the Victoria Home was closed. This implies he did have doss money. What’s odd is that he didn’t seem to have tried to find another place to sleep, certainly when you consider that he must have walked a couple of hours earlier in the cold wet night and that he waited another hour or so in this weather. Considering this, why he told it seems to be even stranger.
All the best,
Frank
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 2:51 am: | |
G'day Frank,
Where is Abberline's report concerning his interview with George Hutchinson? The official files only contain Abberline's report on the closing of Mary Kelly's inquest, with two paragraphs at the end about Hutchinson.
There were differences between Hutchinson's official written statement, and what he told the press, if you look for them:
1) He officially wrote that the man had a "pale" complexion, and the 'Times' said that he had a "dark" complexion.
2) The official report says he had a "slight" moustache, but the newspapers said he had a "heavy" moustache.
3) Officially the man walked "very sharp", and the newspapers say he walked "very softly".
Abberline would have been right onto these differences, unless he told Hutchinson to make them to fool the Ripper into thinking they were on the wrong track!
LEANNE |
Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 669
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:15 pm: | |
Hi Frank,
What would be wrong with a theory that GH was Mary’s ponce and his main reason for coming forward was to avoid suspicion falling on himself, not so much to provide genuine information to the police?
Whether or not he did discover the body and slink off to wait for the next person to do so and raise the alarm, his mind would soon be working overtime to try and remember who he had seen with Mary the night before, if he did in fact see anyone, so he could put the finger on them before it could be put on him.
Remember, if we assume GH was innocent of murder, he would be trying to describe the man he believed to be the ripper, whether he had a good look at him or not. The man he ended up describing could have been a combination of a vague outline from memory and invented extra detail that sounded right to him and would achieve his purpose – to send the police off in another direction, be it the right one or a blind alley.
Love,
Caz
|
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 380
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
Frank/Caz
Or if GH was indeed Mary's pimp, the reason he could describe the suspect with such complete accuracy may well have been because he procured him for her. He could hardly admit this to the police though, so had to make up the Commercial Street meeting story. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 495
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:58 pm: | |
Hello All
It seems to me that if Hutchinson was worth his salt as a pimp, he would have had lodgings of his own rather than be found staying at the Victoria Working Men's Home. He also stated that he had just come back from doing day labour at Romfield. Strange behavior for a man who made his living off the immoral earnings of prostitutes.
I realize that he would be hard pressed to live in style pimping destitute women who commonly serviced soldiers, sailors and impoverished labourers. Nevertheless, if he could round up a stable of young reasonable looking prostitutes such as Kelly, I would expect that he would be a well known figure in the area and that his relationship to Kelly would have been known to others.
All The Best
Gary |
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