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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » WAS MARY JANE KELLY A VICTIM OF JACK THE RIPPER? « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through September 09, 2004Glenn L Andersson50 9-09-04  2:15 pm
Archive through September 22, 2004Leanne Perry50 9-22-04  7:55 am
Archive through October 05, 2004Jon Smyth50 10-05-04  5:37 pm
Archive through November 08, 2004Glenn L Andersson50 11-08-04  6:51 pm
Archive through November 12, 2004Jon Smyth50 11-12-04  8:10 pm
Archive through November 17, 2004Leanne Perry50 11-17-04  12:54 am
Archive through November 21, 2004Dan Norder50 11-21-04  2:30 am
Archive through May 14, 2005Suzi Hanney50 5-14-05  4:51 pm
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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 597
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP,

Although I don't believe dumping his victims was his game or aim, in case you should be right, he may not have finished simply because his knife got too blunt to carry on.

Cheers,
F.
"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff

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Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko

Post Number: 598
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome Carolyn, and I can see why what Debra said lit a spark in the back of your mind. It does make you wonder...

Cheers,
Frank


"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff

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Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Suzy
The reason I brought up the case of Elizabeth Jackson on this thread was because I thought there were certain similarities between her and MJK's mutilations.
I didn't bring it up to try and say was Elizabeth a victim of JTR which would belong on another thread! But rather was MJK a victim of a similar type of killer to the murderer of Elizabeth?...after all the thread is called 'was Mary Jane Kelly a victim of JTR?
This answers Phils query in a way too, I am not sure that 'The Thames torso' killings were all actually linked as a series of murders and none of the other victims were mutilated.

I just think it is worth looking at further.
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn

Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All,

Sorry that I sidetracked this thread, what Debra said made me think and I responded.

Didn't mean to upset anyone.

Carolyn
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2499
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 5:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No ones upset! chaps!!!!!!!
Sure of that

Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2500
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 6:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No ones upset! chaps!!!!!!!
Sure of that

Suzi
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Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 6:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Carolyn
>>Sorry that I sidetracked this thread, what Debra said made me think and I responded<<

You offered exactly what I asked for, an opinion, I don't think you sidetracked the thread at all!
I hope you don't think that you have upset me, because you haven't!
Debra
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Carolyn
Detective Sergeant
Username: Carolyn

Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Debra,

We both responded to Suzi.

Not upset at you at all.

Cheers,
Carolyn


(Message edited by carolyn on May 14, 2005)
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Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 42
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 1:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

While I have been reading up about cases where victims were dismembered and parcelled up ready to be disposed of it has become apparent that a fair number of the victims in these types of murders have organs removed or are missing from their bodies when found.
And like Frank has said, what would be the point in doing this if the aim is merely disposal of the body?
I suppose certain organs could fall out in the process of the body being cut up, but why remove things like breasts? as in one case I have read.

Something else has come up in two of the cases I have looked at more closely and that is the use of a fire after the murder and dismembering to destroy some of the leftover bits.

One such case is in The Times Saturday May 14th 1842. Jane Jones or Good was murdered ( by someone she knew) and cut up ready to be disposed of and her body found in a stable. Her intestines had been removed and believed to have been burned in the fireplace, a few small charred bones were also found in the ashes.
It makes me wonder more and more about Mary....and that fire!
Debra
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2089
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 1:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good thoughts Debra.
I think we must stand by what we are learning from history as we plough through that massive tide of information.
Some folk are too fond of dismissing incidents like this from history as having no value.
But I think the cases you highlight have enormous implications for a true and correct study of the crimes of Jack the Ripper.
My support for your efforts is unwavering.
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Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj

Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cheers AP
I really appreciate your comments, your style of research has really influenced me and spurred me on to look further afield...nothing earth shattering yet!...but you never know what could turn up!
I think that someday, someone who has been looking at the bigger picture will turn up something significant to the case!
Debra
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2092
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 4:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No worries, Debra.
I think an even more interesting case of murder and mutilation, very similar to that of MJK, where a fire is used to dispose of certain body parts, is that of 1876, 'Murder in Blackburn', where a young girl, Emily Holland, is raped, murdered and dismembered by the killer Fish - I just found out we had two killers with that strange name - and he actually left the arms and head burning overnight in the fire grate of his shop while he went and had a beer and good night's sleep.
The case is also remarkable in that bloodhounds were successfully used to track down the torso of the girl in the killer's chimney where he had stuffed it ready to burn in the morning.
The bloodhounds were awarded the 200 reward money offered by the local authority.
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3445
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AP,

That's a lot of dope in 19th century value. I wonder if the bloodhounds bought Spanish brandy for all that reward money.

Seriously, I hail you for your interesting research here that allows us to see the crimes in a bigger context. The information revealed in it certainly shows that gruesome murders of this kind was not as extraordinary or unique as some wants to believe.

All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2098
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 4:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Glenn
the bloodhounds were cross-breeds so they probably spent the money on French brandy.
The case to really get stuck into is the 'Norwich Murder' of 1869.
Lot to read and learn there.
I'm still reading it.

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