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Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 332
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 3:01 am: |       |
Bob, physics 101 - for a fire to start and be self sustaining regardless of the material used it has to have an ambient temperature above 200C which is 40C above the temp required to melt lead/tin based solder used in 1888.
All the fire had to do is burn long enough for the contents (if any) to evaporate from the kettle and allow the kettle to reach a temperature where the solder holding the spout would melt.
Since all the clothing in the grate had been burned, we know that a fire did take place.
Since the clothing had been delivered the previous day, we know that the fire took place sometime that evening or next morning.
Since the kettle was in the fire place during the fire, and had no material in it when Inspector Abberline examined it, we know that the kettle was either placed there previously or it was intended to be used and the contents evaporated.
In either case the kettle was there, there was no liquid in it to prevent the temp from rising enough to reach the melting point of the solder and the spout was melted off. So, had it happened in a previous fire; unknown, only that had it not melted in a previous fire, it would have done so in this one.
Question is, would someone use a kettle with the spout aready melted off? Possibly, if it was all they had available, but why leave it unattended, and more importantly, why would anyone burn clothing to to heat the contents?
More likely, it was placed there previously, the clothing was thrown into the fire by the killer, and the temperature reached a point where the spout melted off either directly or after the contents evaporated.
Shannon
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 7:35 am: | |
Shannon, you said everything I wanted to say only much better. You seem to be of a scientific bent of mind. Can you tell me the equivalent temps in fahrenheit? I doubt that anyone would want to use a teakettle after the spout had melted off. Most spouts are mounted low enough on the side of the kettle that if there was nothing there but a hole you could only put less than two inches of water in there.
If Mary had melted the spout off sometime in October and decided not to use it anymore till it got fixed it would not have been found in the vicinity of the fireplace. To leave it there would invite overheating and burning in the absence of water. If she had just accidently melted the spout off she would hardly be likely to risk further damage by keeping it where it would be overheated again. Moreover, Abberline's description would have been different, something like, "The teakettle was on the mantel with the spout lying next to it." He would not have said what he did unless he found the teakettle in the vicinity of the fire and the spout directly beneath it where it had dropped off.
If she had melted the spout off in October and decided to go on using the spoutless, almost useless kettle it still would have not been found in the vicinity of the fire unless she had heated an inch and a half of water the night she died. If she had lived she would have removed the kettle from the fire before the water boiled away.
Shannon, can you tell me how long it would have taken to melt the solder? |
Suzi Hanney
Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 50
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 7:59 am: | |
Hi all
All vey interesting..but lets face it kettle ,spout or no spout was a relative luxury for our Mary!
Happy Christmas!
Cheers
suzi |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 333
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 1:08 pm: | |
Diane, 200C is equal to about 395F. Paper burns at about 232 (450F). Depending in the mix of lead/tin the solder would start to separate from the base material somewhere around 150C/300F. By 160C/320 it would be liquid enough to lose it adhesive properties. By 180C/355 the solder would have separated from the material and gravitated to the lowest point (either inside the kettle or onto the floor underneath which is why I believe Abberline knew the kettle spout had melted off then (the solder residue would have been on top of whatever material had been used to create the fire. There would also be "cold spots" on the material where the solder put out the fire as it is a liquid and would lower the temp of the object in the immediate area to less than the ignition point).
Not sure how long it would have taken to reach the point where the solder melted, only that once it reaches the point where the solder seperates and if the fire remains constant after that, less than 1 hour before the spout falls off.
Shannon |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 8:07 pm: | |
It is always possible that the spout came off after Bowyer's discovery. If you accept the late TOD and the kettle was already on the fire when Bowyer looked in the window it is reasonable to assume that Bowyer was so transfixed by horror that he wouldn't have noticed a little thing like a teakettle. It was 3? hours before Abberline got into the room. It would seem possible that the spout fell off during that period. In which case I have shot down my own argument and we are back at square one!  |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 334
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 9:02 pm: | |
If there had been a fire when Bowyer looked in, you would think he or McCarthy would have mentioned it at the inquest. First mention is when Abberline noticed it, and it had cooled by then to the point he was able to get close enough to examine the contents if the ashes to determine what type of material had been burned. Abberline made no mention of it still smouldering or it even being hot.
Shannon |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 305
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 9:09 pm: | |
I would go along with what Diana said regarding the spout, I think it had to have been found next to the kettle for Abberline to believe it melted off that night, and as it is unlikely that it would have been left there for any length of time, most likely it had melted off that night.
On the other hand, I don't think that necessarily means a blazing fire. As someone else pointed out recently, if the flame was directly on the solder then this could just as easily cause the spout to fall off.
I personally think that Bob's scenario with the Ripper coming in after Hutchinson's man left was the correct one. Mary may well have lit the fire to keep the place warm while her higher class customer was there, but would only have meagre materials to do this with. By the time JTR arrived the fire may well have been all but out.
He has just come in out of the cold night as well (in fact if it is the man Bob has previously indicated it to be, he's been standing out in the cold night air in a doorway across the road for 45 minutes!) First thing he does obviously is dispatches Mary. Then he wants to get down to some serious mutilation, having a room at his disposal for the first time. But he's a bit chilly and the fire is nearly out. He looks around, there's not much fuel for the fire, but there's a nice pile of clothes on the chair. He just bungs them on the fire, not really caring where they go, just to warm the place up a bit for the half hour or so he's going to need. But clothes are not like logs or coal, they don't lie flat, they stick up at awkward angles. So maybe one bit of the clothes stuck up to just underneath the spout, hey presto, it melts off. |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 335
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 9:22 pm: | |
Alan, that theory would work if you move the time table up to sometime within 3 hours of the discovery of the body, otherwise you have the blood issue to contend with. Remove blotchy face from the equation, and in in person X at a later time...
Shannon |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 306
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 7:30 am: | |
Shannon
I take the point, I do think your theory on the condition of the blood is important and I am independently getting this checked although I doubt I'm going to get my answers until the new year. Until I have a definite answer one way or the other I am going to continue to work on the basis that Dr Bond knew what he was doing when he estimated the time of death. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 200
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 8:30 am: | |
I really prefer the earlier TOD too but I thought the spout issue might serve to settle it. For those who had not as yet gotten in the door would it be possible to see the fireplace from the angle of the window?
So for those who advocate the late TOD Jack would have had to get in the room, kill Mary, throw a bunch of clothes on the fire, and mutilate Mary. The spout would not have had to come off while he was there, but it would have come off less than an hour after the fire was banked and before the fire went out. Then too, if clothes burn slowly, simmer if you will, the ripper's fire would have gone on for several hours after he started it, most probably after he left. If it was not burning when Bowyer looked in the window then we almost have to toss Maxwell's testimony. |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:05 am: | |
Alan-
Agree with you and Bob(!) on the fact that Hutch probably may have lit the fire..maybe mary recieving Hutch into her room said..or maybe Hutch said..."Bit chilly in here my old duck..let's have a bit of a fire!" Mary has no fuel...but does have Maria's "laundry"..."That'll do " says Hutch..bungs the odd piece of clothing on (The fire not himself...now that would be funny!!) and off we go from thereGetting a bit too technical re. solder and kettles!!What's wrong with just an old pot or similar to boil water in!!..failing that..go up to Ringers and have a gin or seven!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 55
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:05 am: | |
Alan-
Agree with you and Bob(!) on the fact that Hutch probably may have lit the fire..maybe mary recieving Hutch into her room said..or maybe Hutch said..."Bit chilly in here my old duck..let's have a bit of a fire!" Mary has no fuel...but does have Maria's "laundry"..."That'll do " says Hutch..bungs the odd piece of clothing on (The fire not himself...now that would be funny!!) and off we go from thereGetting a bit too technical re. solder and kettles!!What's wrong with just an old pot or similar to boil water in!!..failing that..go up to Ringers and have a gin or seven!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 56
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
Sorry all
New p.c. and haven't quite sussed out how not to post twice!!!!!!!!!!!1Think I've got it now tho'
Love
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1649
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:17 am: | |
One thing that makes me think the fire had probably gone out by the time the police entered the room, is that Abberline seems to have delayed before going through the fire. Surely if the fire was still burning, or glowing, he'd have examined the fire immediately, lest some important clue was destroyed?
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 58
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:46 am: | |
Robert-
O.K. Abberline may have delayed for a couple of reasons..1.Nothing noticable in a dead fire
2.Fire blazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!(not at all likely!)
3.Just an average low fire
4.Just your average bonnet and a few pieces of clothing smouldering away
5.Abberline lit it himself!!!!!!
Cheers
Suzi |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 201
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 12:59 pm: | |
Robert you have a point. 1. Nobody but Jack would have used those clothes for fuel. 2. Once he put them on the fire they caught and burned or the spout wouldn't have melted off. 3. The burning would have taken hours because clothing smoulders. 4. If you accept Maxwell the fire didn't get started till after sunrise. 5. If it was started after sunrise it would still have been burning when Abberline got in. 6. Maxwell is ruled out! |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 1:09 pm: | |
I just reread Abberline's inquest testimony. He says he got into the room at 1:30 and there were "traces of" a fire in the fireplace. He mentions the pieces of burnt clothing listing a skirt among the other things. Apparently there was enough of the skirt left so it was recognizable. Maybe the fire went out before the skirt was consumed? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 1:49 pm: | |
Could be, Diana.
One thing I notice : as far as I'm aware (and hopefully someone will tell me if I'm wrong) no report has mentioned any smell in that room. We have reports of the terrible carnage, of course, but there are apparently no reports of smell. Yet the room was only twelve feet square, and there had been a fire of some description there. If the kettle spout melted off during the fire, there'd have been molten metal. If the clothes smouldered, there'd have been smoke. The window had a hole in it, of course, but this was covered by a coat. I find the apparent absence of smell, or stuffiness, a bit odd.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Detective Sergeant
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 60
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
robert1
i think that the police had more on their mind than the smell at the time! mind you there are a lot of things not reported on, about that room least of all the smell..p,raps M.J.K contributed to this!.Have you ever been into a slaughterhouse?
Suzi |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1653
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 2:31 pm: | |
That's just it though, Suzi. The fire, the blood...quite a few people got to enter that room.
I would be interested to know if anyone ever has mentioned the smell. I know that there have been accounts from policemen looking back on their careers, and sometimes you get apparent exaggerations, e.g. that flesh was draped from the picture rails etc. But no smell?
Robert |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 2:49 pm: | |
Robert,
Most of late-Victorian London, especially the East End, would offend our more effete olfactory sense. I would think the room didn't smell that much different than most rooms on Dorset Street -- stuffy, sweaty, smoky and any number of other aromas (remember Kelly's line of work) best left unimagined. It was a different world in so many ways and we must keep that in mind whenever we specualate on the events.
Don. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 487
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
Hi,
I still come back to the vital point.
According To maurice Lewis, she returned to her room with some milk, the obvious purpose was to make tea, which implies, the kettle was still operative at that time, which implies that the spout of the kettle melted from that time onwards.
That is of course if the said gentleman was not telling porkies.
All Jacks victims up to millers court had been murdered during the night , even Chapman at 530am, so why would Three witnesses, albeit only two Lewis, and Maxwell reported in full, claim to have seen the victim alive and well, in daylight hours, and the whole of spitalfields assumed she was killed in the period between Maxwells last sighting , and her discovery at 1045 am.
Yet for some reason, we all doubt the reliability of such witnesses, and prefer to assume , she was killed at around 4am[ time of reported scream].
Reports have obviously gone missing over the years, for I am certain Mrs Maxwell, mentioned that Kelly looked like she was suffering from a heavy cold, which would jointly go along with Hutchinsons 'Oh I have lost my hankerchief' which Of course using my powers of deduction, would suggest that both parties were telling the truth.
Remember these two people were independant witnesses, not in collusion, with each other, and If at 230am, Kelly requires the use of a hanky, and at 815am, mrs maxwell makes a observation, 'Here eyes looked queer, like she was suffering from a heavy cold' it would imply to the possibility that Mary was ill with cold, which to sum up. if she was killed between 23Oam-815am , how could Maxwell make that reference?. if she did not see her....
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 3:31 pm: | |
Don, point taken about the smells.
Richard, I'd dearly love to know whether the inventory taken by Abberline included a red hanky and some money. For unless Hutchinson's man was JTR (which I doubt)he would hardly have walked off with a mucky hanky, and without paying her (if he was so well-off).
I don't know how Hutchinson was supposed to have seen the colour of the hanky. I don't trust his desription, though I believe he probably saw someone.
Unfortunately we don't know whether any milk was found in the room.
I can't go along with Shannon's idea of a breakfast of fish and chips to settle Kelly's stomach. I can think of few things more calculated to unsettle the stomach after a booze session.
Robert |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Very nise discussion! Very nise, get it? Ha Ha.
In the interest of balance, it may be noted that a flame applied directly to an object will heat that object hotter than the same flame not applied directly. In other words, if a flame from the clothes, even a little flicker, were able to touch the spout directly for a little while, then it would produce greater effects on the solder than would be expected from that clothing fire taken as a whole, absent direct contact. This could account for the melting effect.
Now I'm off to slip into a little black number to attend a boozy Christmas party in northern New Britain, Connecticut. Ta Ta!
Bullwinkle
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CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 3:51 pm: | |
I have a hole in my wall that was put there by my dog. I dont know if you know any thing about beagles but they like to run and he ran smack dap into the wall. If I was killed by a serial killer and the case became famous a hundred years from now there would be some people who would read way to much into it. They would try to figure out how that hole got there and they may even speculate that it had something to do with the murder when in fact it was just a hole. What I am getting at is that the burned kettle may just be a burned kettle and have nothing to do with the case The cloths that were burned may just be burned cloths again have nothing to do with the murder. My girlfriend when she gets made at me takes my JTR source material and throws it in the trash because she thinks it is morbid to study the case. We all have wifes and girlfriends husbands and boyfriends and I am sure that everyone here has had an argument I think it is more likely that joe burnt the cloths while in the middle of some demestic dispute It is my understanding that he did not aproove of Mary takeing a room mate and it sounds to me that the burning of the cloths was a demestic act of some kind. Remember that joe did admitt to seeing kelly for a few minuts that nite and it is unlikely if he had argued with kelly then that he would admitt it to the police. If I am not mistaken he often fought with Kelly. If I were the ripper I would not concern myself with starting a fire. I mean when a robber breaks into a house he does not turn on all the lights. Remember at the inqest Cox testfied that she walked by kellys room at 3 in the morning and it was dark. I dont mean to be flip and I know there are people on thease boards who know alot more then me and they have dedicated themselves in studing this case. I just feel that alot of so called clues are not clues at all. The melting kettle and the burning of the cloths were just unfortunate events in mary kellys life. your friend CB |
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