| Author |
Message |
    
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 3:57 am: |       |
Hi Everyone,
The following point to my mind has not been discussed enough regarding the events in Berner Street.
Schwartz claimed to have walked behind a half tipsy man into Berner street,on reaching Stride he manhandles her , trying to pull her back in the street, then appears to call out Lipski, which Schwartz believes is an insult regarding him.
I believe he shouted out Lizzie.. which would sound like Lipski to even a non foreigner, if that is the case then Stride almost certainly knew her attacker and him her.
I am not suggesting that it was Michael Kidney,but that possibility cannot be ruled out.
I am also not suggesting that this was not a Ripper killing, just that it would add conviction that the victims might have known their killer well.
Regards Richard. |
Monty
Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:17 pm: | |
Richard,
" I believe he shouted out Lizzie.. which would sound like Lipski to even a non foreigner, if that is the case then Stride almost certainly knew her attacker and him her. "
Why ?? I cant see a certainty, a possability perhaps.
She may have given him her name only moments before or he may have picked it up from someone else.
Doesnt indicate that she certainly knew who her killer was.
Monty
|
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
Whatho Richard,
You've mentioned something that's been in my mind for sometime. As old Israel could not speek English, the charming chappy setting about Liz could have shouted anything. Israel would have not understood exactly what was being shouted at the spur of the moment and, in his mind, translated it into something else; maybe something some nice zenophobes have shouted at him in the past.
Cheers, Mark |
Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 8:09 pm: | |
Who was the assailant looking at at the time? If he said "Lipski" then he should have been looking at Schwartz. If he said, "Lizzie" then he should have been looking at Stride. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 5:51 am: | |
Hi.
When the man reached Stride he would proberly have been unaware of Schwartz behind him, when he tried to manhandle Stride by attempting to pull her into the street, and then threw her down on the footway, Schwartz was on the other side of the road, and the attacking may have called out Lizzie whilst looking at the person who he had just noticed although he according to Schwartz was looking more at the pipe man at the time.
The more you look at this the more it seems that Stride and the attacker knew each other and it would look like a domestic row then any thing else , the pipe man may well have defused the situation being described as 5ft 11 inches in height and left thinking the situation was now ok.
The letter discussions on the boards, have talked about the threatening letter send to a witness saying ;you thought you were clever , but I know who you are; I believe this was addressed to the pipe man who the killer of Stride blamed for the interruption.
Regards Richard. |
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
Hi, all:
For your information, upcoming in the March issue of Ripperologist, we are publishing an article by Canadian researcher Robert McLaughlin on the topic of the call of "Lipsky" and whether Israel Schwartz misheard the word, or if it was the actual word used. Mr. McLaughlin points out that the evidence seems to suggest, both from graffiti in the area at the period and newspaper accounts, that "Lipski" was used as a pejorative term for Jews following the Lipski murder trial of 1887 in which a Polish Jew, Israel Lipski, a lodger at 16 Batty Street, was found guilty of the murder by poison of his landlady, Miriam Angel.
Best regards
Chris George
U.S. Editor, Ripperologist |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 199
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 6:24 am: | |
G'day,
Has anyone thought of this: Elizabeth Stride did cleaning work for the Jews. Perhaps she 'double-booked' a rendevouz with a Jewish man & '1st Man'. Maybe the shout of "LIPSKI" was an insult to HER!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Sergeant
Username: Robert
Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 1:19 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Yes, I think it's possible to read "Lipski" as an insult to Stride. She was standing in the gateway of a club frequented by Jews, and she may have been taken for one of their wives/girlfriends, especially if she happened to be singing along softly in Yiddish to the music.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
G'day Richard,
I was thinking more that "LIPSKI", was an insult, as if to say: "AWWW YOUR NOTHIN' BUT A JEW!" 1st Man may or may not have known her true nationality!
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 203
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 5:24 pm: | |
G'day,
1st Man's anger was directed at HER!
LEANNE |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 8:05 pm: | |
Richard and all; Could the words heard by Schwartz be something to do with a key?(" Liz where is my key? Flippin key? etc.) I say this because of the key found on Liz, the type used for a padlock. Michael Kidney was questioned about how he had his door padlocked, and he says he had the key, but Liz always got in somehow. She could have even stolen his key to go get her things, and didn't return it to the proper place, ( hidden in her prayerbook perhaps?)and Michael, after returning home and finding himself locked out, went after her to get his key back. It may have resulted in violence, and to a non-english speaking person, the phrase may have been heard as something they can relate to in their own language (Lipski). Sometimes we are looking for complicated scenarios that are more easily explained. Any feedback appreciated,
Midnyte |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 125
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 4:09 am: | |
Hi Joan,
That is one of the best observations I have ever come across..
I tended to believe that he may have shouted Lizzie, bur LIZ-KEY, is even closer in sound.
Of course if this was to be a fact then it is almost certain that Kidney assalted Stride and that would explain a lot, it does not mean that he actually killed her, but he would have to be a major suspect in her killing, as the coincedence that she was attacked twice in the space of 15 minutes , one proving fatal is hard to swallow.
Well done Joan.
Regards Richard. |
Brenda Love
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
I have been reading my latest issue of Ripperologist and have been enjoying "The Ripper People: William Le Queux" by Eduardo Zinna. Near the end of the piece Zinna speaks of some documents found in Rasputin's safe. One document is a report that says Pedachenko was the Ripper, and he had two accomplices, one by the name of LEVITSKI.
Could it be? Maybe! |
Andrew Spallek
Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 46
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 2:08 pm: | |
It is also possible that the second man's name just happened coincientally to be "Lipski" or something similar.
Instinct tells me that the man who shouted "Lipski" could not be JTR. How clumsy could you get -- getting into a public altercation with your vicitim in which she screams (albeit not very loudly) and then to shout to your accomplice! On the other hand, this all may be part of the bungled nature of the crime which -- when all these factors combined to cause intolerable uneasiness -- was abandoned before completion.
Andy
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 421
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 4:23 pm: | |
Hi Andy
I think the police established that there was no one living in the area called Lipski. But I agree that the attacker is unlikely to have been JTR.
Stride had some cachous in her left hand when found. Is she supposed to have fished these out of her pocket with the attacker still hanging around?
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 11:51 pm: | |
Robert,
Who said he had to live in the area?
Andy
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 423
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 4:34 am: | |
Hi Andy
Bit odd if the man isn't from the immediate area yet Stride's attacker knows his name.
When I asked if the man could have been a real Lipski, Chris Scott said that there was one Lipski family in London at the time of the 1881 census, at 11 Sandy's Row, head Moses Lipski.
I suppose, though, there is a slight chance that the man could have been a real Lipski.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 1:02 pm: | |
Robert,
I'm sorry, I didn't make my point clear. What if "Lipski" was the attacker's accomplice and the attacker was yelling at him to get rid of Schwartz whom he in fact chased away, whether intentionally or unintentionally?
But with only one Lipski in London in 1881, one wonders how likely this could be. Of course, it could have been a similar-sounding name (like Levitzky).
I don't think the scenario is likely, but it is possible. I assume SY checked this out. Schwartz's statement implies that he was asked whether the man shouted "Lipski" at him (Schwartz) or at the other man.
Andy
|
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 427
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 5:07 pm: | |
Sorry Andy, I now see that you were following on from Brenda's post of a month before.
Yes, I suppose Jack could have had an accomplice.
Mind you, the second man was a pretty incompetent lookout if he allowed Jack to start an attack with Schwartz on the scene!
Robert |
Candy Morgan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:23 pm: | |
Hello all!
Robert said:
"Stride had some cachous in her left hand when found. Is she supposed to have fished these out of her pocket with the attacker still hanging around?"
I think she probably 'gripped up' or made fists when she saw someone - be that a stranger or Mr. Kidney - coming at her with intent to do harm. Do any of the reports indicate whether the packet was crushed?
Candy |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 445
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
Hi Candy
I've only just seen your post.
I haven't read any reference to the packet being crushed, but it seems to have been only a small packet - if indeed it was a packet, and not just a few pills wrapped in a piece of paper.
I can't believe she'd have hung around if the attacker was still there, let alone go into a dark yard with him. Of course, it's possible that he cleared off, then she went into the yard, and then he came back and surprised her.
Robert |
Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 6:44 am: | |
Maybe the attacker yelled out "lipstick". Could have been a transexual!!
Or maybe it was a woman....
Actually I am starting to think that it was "Liz-key". But I have always believed that Stride was killed by JTR as the throat was mutilated in the same way as the other vitims, never mind the lack of mutilations to her lower body. |
Donna
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 3:27 pm: | |
hello Richard
I think it could have very well been Lizzie, Richard.
I can see where you're coming from Richard.
Can I just say something Richard?
In communication lessons we have been taught, Richard, that one word to stop a person from doing something or gain their attention, Richard, is their name.
Many killers, Richard, have walked away before killing a victim because they have heard their victims name. It's a personal thing, Richard.
But like I said, if you wish to gain attention of someone,Richard, then their name is the best thing to say.
Also you need to think of times when a name would be used, gaining attention, at the height of sexual pleasure or addressing a person (which ties in with gaining attention). |
Sarah Long
Sergeant
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 7:35 am: | |
If he was yelling out her name, why would be doing so while attacking her. I could understand if he called out to her just prior to attacking her, but not during. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 419
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 2:00 pm: | |
Hi.
I Would say that the killer of Stride was addressing her by name Lizzie, and it has been mistaken for Lipski,The sounding of the too , to a hungarian immigrant would be very similar, he was not to know she was known as Liz.
I believe every victim knew their killer.
Richard. |
