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Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 59
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 4:50 am: |       |
Got to add my compliments, this is a fantastic article. I just wonder how you get the time to find all this stuff. There seems to be a lot of people on these boards writing books right now, I'm hoping we're going to see Chris's name listed on the acknowledgments pages of all of them?
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 614
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 7:56 am: | |
Many thanks for all the comments guys
I find the time because at the moment I am on long term sick leave and the research (and am also doing a lot of family history related stuff as well) has helped keep me sane by keeping the mind active:-)
I hope to keep stuff coming that is of interest
Best wishes to all
Chris
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 1:54 pm: | |
Hi Alan,
Chris will be certainly be aknowledged in our book, With of course his permission.
What I have read in that tiny snippit, confirms my suspicions, that MJK, was a clean , respectable dressed woman, who took a pride in her appearence, albeit her clothes had seen better days by the time of her death, but I have always believed , that she stood out amongst women of her kind, and was not the sort of person , you could mistake [ Mrs Maxwell?.]
Even the famous Walter Dew, knew her by sight, she must have been a eyesaw.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 920
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Steady on, Richard! She can't have stood out that much if she could roll a sailor, swap shawls with another woman, and get away with it.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 286
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Now that remark which has been quoted in the past
Is pure east end legend. although sailors were her favourites [ because of ready cash] I do not dispute that, I Dispute the fact that the woman who liked to be known as Marie Jeanette, would roll a sailor, and swap shawls, to escape detection, even tho I am sure this activity went on,
My opinion.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 921
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 2:53 pm: | |
OK, Richard, maybe I'm wrong - I thought it was a remark from Dew.
There is also the apparent lack of witnesses on her last night - which pubs was she in, who did she leave with, etc . At least as far as the police were concerned, no one appeared at the inquest to testify - no barmaids, for instance.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 616
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:29 pm: | |
Here is the full article from which the post above comes. It gives a fascinating insight into the atmosphere in the days following the Kelly murder. I am assuming that the amateur sleuth referred to as being nearly lynched in "Dr. Holt"
Regards
Chris
Te Aroha Times (New Zealand)
12 January 1889
The Whitechapel Atrocities
INTENSE EXCITEMENT AT THE EAST END
ATTEMPT TO LYNCH A DETECTIVE
London, November 16
The state of excitement into which the East End was thrown by the seventh mysterious murder in Whitechapel simply beggars description. On Friday, Saturday and Sunday no stranger could be said to be safe in the neighbourhood, especially after dark. Cries of "Jack the Ripper" were raised on the faintest pretext, and despite the large forces of police about it took them all their time to prevent some innocent person being lynched. One amateur detective, a fool of a doctor in a painfully obvious disguise, narrowly escaped being torn to pieces. He had been poking about the scene of the murder for some time asking curious questions and attracting a good deal of suspicion by his theatrically blacked face, when a woman shrilly shouted "That's him, that's Jack the Ripper." In an instant the crowd fell upon the unfortunate fellow like furies. The police tried vainly to protect him, and it was in a half killed condition a posse of 20 constables eventually got him to the nearest police station. The following excert from the "Daily News" gives a vivid picture of the scene in Spitalfields and Whitechapel on Sunday evening last. A heavy fog had shrouded the city like a pall for the greater part of the day, but towards night it cleared somewhat. The correspondent made his way back with considerable trepidation. A "Star" reporter had narrowly escaped being nominated as the mysterious Ripper, the previous evening, and the attitude of the populace was generally threatening to decently dressed strangers. Fortunately, at this time, there were plenty of missionaries about. There seem, he writes, to be hundreds of people to whom the subject of the latest tragedy is still fresh in its horror, and who are flocking in and out of the murky little street, full of the all absorbing theme, or huddled together in little groups undet the flickering lamps, listening to anybody who has anything to say about it, or can give the latest rumours of arrests made or suspicious characters seen. The public houses of course are all full, and as the doors swing open every now and again one can hear that the babel of conversation going on there is all about the murder. Flaring naphta lamps are throwing a lurid glare ober barrows of walnuts and piles of apples, and lighting up the uncouth crowds enagaged in eager discussion, while three or four hoarse throated fellows, flaunting crimson advertisement sheets and bright red covered pamphlets, are braying out inducements to the "the Whitechapel Blood Book - the Book of the Whitechapel 'Orrorsm only a penny." Two stalwart policemen are still stationed like a couple of mutes at the head of Miller's Court, from which the general public are still excluded, though the wretched inhabitants of this dreary little nook flit in and out, seemingly not greatly affected by the notoriety into which their little burrow has suddenly been dragged.
It is a dreary, dismal scene presented here in the misty gloom of this November evening and it is all the more gruesome and depressing from the revolting conversation of many of the people, especially of a line of rough looking fellows who stand with their backs against the wall opposite the head of Miller's Court, smoking short pipes, chaffing the crowd, and bandying unseemly jests about the shocking occurrence. As early as four o'clock in the morning, it is said, people began to drop round to have a look at the scene of this latest horror, and all day long they have come and gone, and still they are clustering here, and streaming in and out. But the main thoroughfares look very quiet and deserted, at all events to those familiar with them only on weekdays. The gaslights flicker feebly over the sloppy pavement. and there is a clammy fog in the air. It is six o'clock, and bands of street preachers are beginning to make themselves heard through the dusky streets. Yonder is the clear, pleasant voice of a young girl rising into the gloomy night, rendering with great pathos and expression one of Mr. Sankey's most melodious ditties. Sweetly and tremulously her voice soars out, and then perhaps fifty people round her catch up the chorus, some of them taking their parts with great precision and effect. The chorus dies out, and again the bright young voice swells out with evident emotion and passers by stop and listen, and rough jests are hushed. It seems as though every few paces in this neighbourhood of Spitalfields street singers and preachers are doing their best to take full advantage of the solemnising effect of these successive tragedies. "There is no doubt," says a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got thirty four of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother. It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and repectably dressed, amd looked quite nice and respectable."
"You have been at this work a good many years?"
"Seven years in this neighbourhood."
"And do you find the state of things improving in any degree?"
"Well, I think there is a little improvement - some little improvement. I have been out and about the streets at all hours; and have sometimes found a shocking state of things. I remember a year or two back going out one night and finding eleven women who had crept for shelter into the staircase of one house. They were quite destitute, and were sleeping here. The opening of the refuges of one sort and another has done something to reduce the numbers found in this way, but there is still a deplorable state of things."
Out into the darkness again and round into this lane, where the pooest of all the lodging houses are to be found. What a queer world it is. But down into the very deepest depths little bands of devoted men and women make their way with perfect impunity. They trundle in their harmoniums, distribute their books, and set up singing and praying; and it seems as though the most hardened ruffians and the most abandoned profligates dare do nothing more at the most than assume an air of stolid and sullen neutrality. Push open the door! What a picture for a Doré! The huge coke fire, the sleek looking, sprawling cats basking in its glow, the dark, uncouth shadows in the background, the men stretched in sleepy indifference on the kitchen forms, the rows of women with bandaged heads and gaunt, haggard figures seated under the flaring gas, singing with the fervour of cherubim, and the grimy, half clothes, curly headed, roguish little imps of children pitchpoling about the sawdust floor, or sandwiched in between their mothers, piping up with their shrill little voices in the general chorus. What a strange phase of life it is! Out again into the murky lane and we are stopped by a singularly repulsive looking little woman, whose face looks as though it has had a terrible blow that has flattened it all in. She wants a word or two with her friend the missionary. Where has "he" gone to? She cannot get out half a dozen words before she bursts into tears. She bares her skinny arm to show how thinly she is clad and how wasted she is, and she tries to blurt out the history of her wrongs. Twenty long years, and now "he" has gone, and she is left alone to fight her own way, and she sobs and cries, and begs for the missionaries' help. A few more peeps into the kitchen, where other bands of workers are gathered, and in one of which a young lady, bereft of eyesight, is offering up a prayer of piteous earnestness for the ragged company seated amid the pots and pans of the lodging house kitchen. Out again, and once more there is a plea for the missionaries' aid. Her sister, alas!, has got into trouble. Oh if the missionary would but try and get them married! "A very common task," says the missionary. "During my seven years I suppose I have managed to get a couple of hundred married under such circumstances at least." Away agin up into a comfortable, clean, and tidy little room in a block of model dwellings. Here is an exceedingly respectable looking young woman, who has been helped out of this lodging house life. Her husband had committed forgery, and she was plinged from comfort and respectability down into the deepest depth. Just in time they found her and helped her up again, and here she is in a decent little home and work found for her. One who has dipped here and there into that awful lodging life can well understand the fervent gratitude of this poor girl, who hardly seems to know which to be most thankful for - the help out of the lodging house kitchen or the recovery of her only child from bronchitis, "We keep on dragging them out," says the missionary, "but others keep on streaming in." What this part of London would be without such work Heaven only knows!
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 931
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:47 pm: | |
Tremendous article, Chris, and many thanks for posting it. Having read it, I feel as if I've just visited Dorset Street.
Wonderful stuff!
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 289
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:47 pm: | |
Hi Chris ,
A excellent account, of local conditions, and it does tend to fuel belief that Kelly was infact a respectable young lady , in appearence, and if she attended meetings, had a kind heart, and would help the less fortunate all she could, hense the stay overs in room 13.
Question.
Would this type of smart pleasant , and respectable young lady, be mistaken by at least two witnesses on the morning of the 9th. she surely would have been a familiar face even if she was not known by name, and Maxwell and Lewis knew her Maxwell about 4 months , lewis about 3-4 years.?
regards Richard. |
John Hacker
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jhacker
Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 1:37 pm: | |
Chris,
A truly excellent find! Many thanks for posting it!
It's certainly a much more evocative article than most of the lurid newspaper accounts of the killings. The reporter really went above and beyond in penning it.
Regards,
John Hacker |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 622
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 1:03 pm: | |
Found this letter from 1 December 1888 signed by one Charles Jerram. The other article about the Goulston street graffito is part of much longer article I will be posting to Press reports
Chris
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Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 8:13 am: | |
Hi all,
Just was looking for all deaths listed from september 1888 to december 1888 on the FreeBMD website (http://freebmd.rootsweb.com) and I found Mary!! She is listed as Marie Jeanette Davies!! Unfortunately this is all the information it tells us apart from the fact that she was 25 and died in Whitechapel. It is definately her. It is listed under Dec 1888 deaths as they are only listed at the end of March, June, September and December. Also Annie Chapman is listed under the Sept 1888 deaths. |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 5:19 am: | |
The other vitims, or most of them, were all said to look at least 10 years younger. What if MJK was actually up to 10 years older than we think she was. The only reason we know that the others were older than they looked was that they had family members to state their age but MJK had no family nearby. We only have to go on what she told others or what others thought was her age.
What does anyone else think? |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 690
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
I was doing some work on the 1881 census when i came across something I wasn't looking for!
The records in 1881 for the Liverpool Workhouse, in the section I was looking at, listed 72 female inmates and of these no less than 52 are described under "Trade or Profession" as Prostitute. Near the end of the list of female inmates (and not among those described as prostitutes) were two records one after the other which caught my eye:
Liverpool Workhouse, Brownlow Hill, Liverpool, Lancashire.
1) Margaret Kelly born 1862 in Ireland, unmarried, domestic servant.
2) Mary McCarthy born 1862 in Limerick, Ireland, unmarried, Domestic Servant.
I will see if I can find any more about either.
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 691
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 7:51 pm: | |
As another exercise in 1881 data, I tried a search using the following parameters:
Forename MARY
Year of birth: 1863
Place of Birth: Limerick, Ireland.
This produced 8 results. Of these, one lived in Artillery Street, and in one other the head of household was a labourer in an iron Works! Small world!
Chris
Forename MARY, born Limerick in 1863
1) Mary Buckley, servant, 21 Brompton Square, London
2) Mary Ann Walsh, barmaid, 14 Webber Street, Lambeth
3) Mary A Sullivan, 2 Ohrens Court, London
4) Mary Brown, servant, 65 Torrington Square, London
5) Mary Ann Easton (married name), 20 castle Street, Plymouth, Devon
Husband was a fisherman.
6) Mary O'Brien, Machinist, 26 Artillery Lane, London.
Parents were John O'Brien, a bootmaker and Bridget O'Brien, a machinist, both born in Limerick. Siblings were Thomas aged 6, Agnes aged 15, Kate aged 15, Bridget aged 12, all born in Minories, London.
7) Mary F Jones, St Bernards, Mapel Road, Kingston, Surrey. Daughter of Lewis Jones, Lieutenant Colonel.
8) Mary Murphy, Domestic Servant, of 69 Farrar Street, Linthorpe, York
Head of household was her uncle, Patrick Murphy, aged 43, born Limerick, Labourer in an Iron Works
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 399
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 3:55 am: | |
Hi Chris,
Mary McCarthy, looks intresting, was that not the name that her landlord knew her as, although he said she often used the name Kelly, as she posed as the man she lived with, who according to McCarthy, he knew as Mr Kelly, a coal porter?.
It seems to me that there is a massive web of deceit going on . she tells him she is Mary Jane McCarthy, the man introduces himself as Kelly, therefore she becomes Mary jane Kelly, but thats not his real name, its Barnett, therefore is not Kelly just a fictitous name, made up by Barnett?.
I Would bet that her real name may have been Mary,but I would question, if the surname Kelly was her real name.
Richard. |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 4:30 am: | |
Hi Richard,
Where does it say that Barnett introduced himself as Kelly? I thought that McCarthy knew of Mary using the surname of Kelly and because he knew her also as McCarthy came to the conclusion that the man living with her was called Kelly.
This seems more realistic. I can't see why Barnett would invent the name of Kelly. |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 7:26 pm: | |
The other night I came across a website ( relating to whitechapel and stepney family history and history ) it contained an article on JTR's crimes and victims which was quite basic ( no suspect theories or descendency claims) and stuck to the facts.
But on the Mary Kelly section it had one piece of 'information' I had never seen before, that Mary Jane Kelly was also known as Mary Jane O' Brien and was b August 1863 in Limerick.
I was wondering if anyone else had ever come across anything to suggest Mary used this surname or know where the idea may have come from?
regards Debra |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 694
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 9:30 am: | |
Hi Debra
I would be interested to know the address ofthe website you mention. As you will see, in the census serach I did above there was a Mary O'Brien listed as born in 1863 in Limerick and in 1881 living in Artillery Lane.
I'd be interested to know the source of the info you mention above- it would prove very helpful.
Regards
Chris
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 402
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
The times Nov 10th 88, says they had an interview with the victims landlord McCarthy , who states that the victim was about 23-24 years old, who moved into the accomodation with a man called Kelly a coal porter, who had recently left her, she often posed as his wife, [ thus the name Kelly]he knew her christian names were Mary jane.
So as you can see Sarah. all the time that Barnett lived with Kelly , infact right up until Barnett admitted his correct name to the police, McCarthy, believed his surname to be Kelly, therefore as posing as his wife[ common law] she used the name Kelly.
Richard. |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 5:52 am: | |
Yes but Richard where does it say that Barnett actually was the one who told McCarthy that his name was Kelly? That is what I am getting at here. I'm not saying that McCarthy was lying, but maybe, as I said before, Mary told McCarthy that her surname was, well the same as his, for reasons unknown, but he also had heard of her using the surname Kelly and therefore isn't it possible that he presumed the man living with her was called Kelly.
Please point me to where it states that McCarthy was told by ANYONE that Barnett's surname was Kelly. This newspaper article doesn't state this it just tells us that McCarthy thought Joe's surname was Kelly.
Are there any records of Joe saying his surname was Kelly anywhere else? |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 6:01 am: | |
Debra,
I presume it was the following site you saw:-
http://website.lineone.net/~fight/Stepney/whitemur.htm
It actually says she was born in August 1865 not 1863. Don't know where they got their information from. |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 240
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 10:15 pm: | |
Sara, from the inquest, the coroner is questioning McCarthy, "[Coroner] How long had the deceased lived in the room?" - [McCarthy] "Ten months. She lived with Barnett. I did not know whether they were married or not..."
Its clear from this that McCarthy knew his as Barnett, didn't know or assume they were married as there is no mention of him knowing him by any other name.
Shannon |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 404
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:37 am: | |
Hi Shannon,
Yes but, by the time of the inquest, he would have known that Barnett was his real name, he would have realised that he had been mislead, therefore he would have used the name Barnett.
The interview mentioned on the 10th Nov, to the Times, states quite clearly the deseased came to live with a man called Kelly, and she posed as his wife.
Sarah.
I would have persumed that when Joe ,and Mary visited McCarthy to see if he had property to rent, he would have asked them there names, therefore, if Joe had used the name Barnett, why did McCarthy say , she came to live with a man called kelly?. the obvious is that he gave the name of Kelly. and as she posed as his wife[ common law] she used the name kelly, which would be normal behaviour.
Richard. |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 5:13 am: | |
I know Shannon. It's Richard who keeps saying that Joe introduced himself as Kelly. |
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