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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 439
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 4:48 pm: |       |
"It's as if someone set out to design a nice parish church and ended up with the Sistine Chapel."
Robert, you're irreplaceble... 
--------------------------------------
Hi Richard,
"a] Barnett was the imfamous 'jack'
b] Barnett killed Kelly only , and in desperation tried to put the blame on the killer.
c] Leanne and me are entirely wrong, and the killer was Mr x...."
No offense, Richard, but I discount [A] and [B] (hardly a surprise, is it?).
Since Kelly obviously "appreciated his kindness to her", his social ability is already at this point contradicting the type of killer discussed here. Secondly and more important, did it ever occure to you that he just was interested in the murders (look at us!!!!!) and that he read the clippings to her because he was concerned for her welfare and wanted her to be on the lookout.
Maybe he did read them to her in a naive attempt to scare her off from her "immoral" way of life, but what does that say? That he is absolutely sane and healthy. He didn't want her to continue to prostitute herself because
a) he felt bad about the fact that she sold her body to other men;
b) he was afraid that she would end up in trouble with the police or exposing herself to the risks of the street or of getting;
c) he was afraid that she would end up in the hands of Jack the Ripper
Yes, I know that [a] is a main point in the jealosy theory, but if he really cared about her, this is a totally natural attitude towards things. It doesen't mean he have to get dramatic and kill her or, even worse, set out on a murder spree.
The above points as far away from him being a paranoid schizofrenic -- and even a psycopath -- in any sense. I would hate it if his concern for her would speak against the fellow. Sorry, but it doesen't add up.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 130
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 5:12 pm: | |
Glenn, (hypothetical) You are 8 years old and you have a cat you love more that anything else in the world. You provide for your pet the best you can. You feed it, give it a place to stay, buy it toys to play with, and in effect spoil it with affection. Only one day when you come home you have to face your pet with the news that you can no longer afford the best food, the best bedding, and the best grooming like you did in the past. Your pet now has to do without the extra treats, has to eat a cheaper brand of food, and you cant replace the bedding as often as you did before. Problem is, you have a spoiled cat that demands what you can no longer give, and without a second thougth, it jumps through the window and searches for a new home where another person can spoil it like you used to do. How would you feel towards that ungreatful cat you have devoted your life to, and spent every penny you have on keeping it? You could let go and find another cat that would please you; but, something inside makes you want to get even, so one night you see your cat walking around the neighborhood, and you dont see anything wrong with making it pay by killing it before you find a new cat that will love you more. Remember, your only 8 years old...
Shannon
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 740
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
G'day Glenn,
'I don't think a killer of this type could interact with a woman in enough degree to live with one.'
* Peter Sutcliffe, (The Yorkshire Ripper), was married,
* The Boston Strangler was married,
* Juan Coran was married,
* Michael Lee Herrington, (who mutilated 2 women), was married,
* Edmund J. Cody married 9 times, killed his 9th wife, is suspected of killing 4 others and the rest are still missing.
* John Wayne Gacy was reported by his wife,
* Robert Hanson, killed 17 women, was a married man who felt rejected.
* Calvin Perry, (no relation), killed his wife, 11 year old son, raped and beat his 2 year old daughter, then killed the family dog!
And these are the ones I found in one book. Shall I open another?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 741
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:59 pm: | |
G'day,
About Barnett keeping press-cuttings: Many killers take Polaroid snapshots of their victims,to hold on to that moment.
* Leonard Lake recorded video tapes of his murder victims being tortured,
* Some killers keep body parts in jars and keep scrapbooks,
* Ed Gein made lampshades out the skins of his victims, and wove bracelets out of their hair,
* Edmund Kemper preserved heads for weeks and used them as dart boards.
It's as if it's to keep reminding themselves of their 'power by fear'.
LEANNE
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Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 131
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 7:25 pm: | |
Leanne, exactly. The killers you mentioned and many many more feel a need to be in control of some part of their environment. In the real world they usually hold meaningless jobs and for the most part go unnoticed by those around them in their everyday life. If they can not control their own life, they find a certain amount of pleasure in controling the lives of others by fear. What makes them keep going is the rush they get from it. Its addictive.
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 964
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 7:51 pm: | |
On the other hand if Joe did indeed keep Press cuttings, wouldn't that be natural?
Hope keeping Press cuttings doesn't make you a suspect - for Casebook's sake!
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 297
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 4:30 am: | |
Hi Guys,
I Wonder if we discovered Tumblety, or George chapman, etc, kept press cuttings of the Ripper murders, or one of them attended Kellys funeral, would we say so what?.
It has been stated that the press cuttings started with Tabram, unless Barnett went to a lot of trouble, obtaining past copys, I Would have assumed, his collection started after the tabram murder, he obviously was an expert in being able to spot a series of murders about to happen?.
I Agree entirely with Leanne, and shannon, many imfamous killers, have the capacity to live with women, and communicate with them normally.
The fact is all roads lead to Dorset street, it has been stated on these boards many times, that the Kelly murder fullfilled his blood lust , because she was killed in a private room, therefore he had the privacy and the time to carry out his fantasies, if that is the case why was not all the murders, carried out in private acomodation, there
must have been hundreds of women living in rented property, who lived with there partners , who occasionally prostituted themselves, when their man was working? I Believe Kelly was singled out to die inside room 13, and was not a chance encounter.
Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 742
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 4:51 am: | |
G'day,
If he was keeping press-cuttings simply to scare/warn/preach to Mary Kelly, what good were they once he read them to her?
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 965
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 5:24 am: | |
Hi all
Well, the cuttings may have been just about the only thing he had as a momento of her (whether or not the cuttings included Kelly's murder). Plus, he may have been interested in the career of the murderer who'd killed his girlfriend.
People are assuming that Joe was the one whose idea it was to keep the cuttings. But Joe said that Kelly asked him to read about the murders.
It would have been natural for the couple to be interested in Tabram's murder - they went to live close by when first they paired up together.
Robert
|
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 134
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 5:40 am: | |
Robert, Joe claimed he bought the papers to read to Mary about the murders...
1) with money as tight as it was for him with no income to speak of, the purchase of a paper would have been the last thing on his list after rent which was in arears 29s, food to live on, and drink for fortification under the circumstances. Why did he buy one when he could have waited a day and retrieved one from the local fish market for free?
2) As someone else pointed out, once read to Mary, what further use were they? Old news is just that, onld news.
3) Personally, had my girlfriend been horribly murdered, the last thing I would want is something to remind me of it. I would have chosen a more cherished keepsake from among her posessions to remember her as she once was, not how she was in death.
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 966
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 6:17 am: | |
Hi Shannon
We don't know what other keepsakes Joe may have retained in addition to the papers - but there wasn't a lot to choose from!
We can't unravel Joe's finances. Why buy a paper? Well, if money was this tight, it's strange that he's supposed to have had so many (unpawned) clothes - his normal clothes, a Ripper outfit to do the murders in, another suit to change into after the Kelly murder (don't know whether this was the smart outfit he's supposed to have worn at the inquest).
I don't know why Joe or Mary would keep the cuttings. To refer to again? who knows?
All this assumes that he did actually keep some cuttings, that they were contemporary (and not retrospectives), that they included the Tabram murder...
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 298
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 6:18 am: | |
Hi Robert,
As you rightly say, Tabram lived close to Barnett, and Kelly, when they first met.If Tabram was the first of the series, I bet Kelly would have known her, If Barnett was JACK he would have picked someone kelly was familiar with.
Also Eddowes who was the worst mutulated up to Millers court, I Would say she knew well.
Regards Richard. |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 136
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 6:57 am: | |
Richard, Polly lived at 56 Flower and Dean, Kate at 55 Flower and Dean. Annie Chapman at 35 Dorset Street directly across from the opening to Miller's Court. What are the odds of 4 women being murdered in different parts of the town all living next door to each other? Considering the population was over 75,000...
Shannon |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 444
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:27 am: | |
Hi Leanne,
I knew you were going to dig up some examples to prove your point -- that's why I wrote "One can find examples of practically everything"...
I haven't studied all of them closely, but most of the killers you presented here are more likely to be considerd psychopaths, aren't they?
I don't believe they have anything to do with the profile of Jack the Ripper whatsoever. Psychopaths are very well designed to be married and have longer relationships, and they usually have no hatred for women in general -- just a different type of women -- that's why they can focus on them for their crimes and still be capable of being married or have girlfriends, something that is impossible for a disorganized killer that hates women -- even if he dislikes prostitutes he's afraid of women in general and don't know how to deal with them on a personal level. If you look at it logically, could a disorganized killer like Jack the Ripper be able to interact with people and women at all? I think not.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 445
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:33 am: | |
"I Agree entirely with Leanne, and shannon, many imfamous killers, have the capacity to live with women, and communicate with them normally."
Not this kind of killer, Richard. Jack is a mentally disturbed bloke and Barnett is not even close. Your basis for nailing Barnett to the case, is that he would be a psychopath. I can't rule that out (he could very well have had a psychopathic disorder), but I have tried to point out that Jack the Ripper probably wasn't one!
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 299
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:41 am: | |
Hi Shannon.
Exactly, I would quess that all the womem knew each other, and Kelly was familiar with all of them, if Barnett was the killer, the plan was to shock Kelly into reality.
Richard. |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 446
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:42 am: | |
Hi Shannon,
Regarding your post October 11 (5:12)
I have never disputed or disregarded his background or childhood experiences, Shannon. As I pointed out earlier, this is one of the few circumstances that lay in favour of his candidature (this background could work for both organized and disorganized killers).
But on the other hand (with the Eddoews prostitution discussion in mind) would it really be realistic to assume that all with similar background and in similar environments then automatically becomes murderers?
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 447
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:54 am: | |
Richard,
We have really no evidence of that the women knew each other, and even if they did, what does that prove? That is just speculations and we have had that discussion before -- without results either way. That link to Barnett as the murderer is, I'm afraid, incredibly thin and completely bogus, just like the motive is imaginary.
And once again; his assumed attempts to scare Mary Kelly with the clippings (if that not is speculation as well) rather shows him to be a fairly sane individual, and his reasons for doing it is completely normal. Noone here know why he kept those clippings -- of that we can only speculate and it shows nothing of importance for the investigation, as I see it.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 743
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 8:19 am: | |
G'day,
Bruce Paley, (the guy who first identified Joseph Barnett as a possible suspect in the 1970s), wrote that:
* Martha Tabram's friend, 'Pearly Poll' lived at 'Crossinghams', (35 Dorset Street).
* Annie Chapman was a long-time habitue of various Dorset Street doss houses and according to 'People', 11 November a friend of Mary Kelly's.
* Annie Chapman was living across the road at 'Crossinghams', and previously at the doss house at 30 Dorset Street.
* Elizabeth Stride had been living on and off with Michael Kidney at 38 Dorset Street.
* Catharine Eddowes often stayed next door in John McCarthy's 'Shed' at 26 Dorset Street!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 967
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 8:23 am: | |
Hi Richard
I'm not sure whether Joe and Mary were actually living near Tabram - my point was just that the site itself would have interested them.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 744
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
G'day,
I just found a page in Paley's book that states: 'Both Smith and Tabram had lived on George Street, (which only ran for about 115 yards), where Kelly and Barnett had lived, according to Donald Rumbelow in 'The Complete Jack the Ripper'. Smith was there when Kelly and Barnett were still living there. Although it is not known if the same held true for Martha Tabram...'
LEANNE |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 9:10 am: | |
Glenn, as to whether all in similar circumstances would be come serial killers, the answer is NO. How is it that one in a family becomes a serial killer when the siblings go on to lead normal lives? What sets Joseph in a category all his own is that of all the people who lived similar lives and had the possibility of becoming a serial killer, he had the woman he lived with, a woman across the street, one who lived in the shed, and one who frequented the same pub he did at the end of the street all murdered under mysterious circumstances, and at the inquest for his girl friend’s murder exhibited many characteristics of a person with something to hide.
The murders appear random because they take place in different parts of the city, but in reality if you trace the woman's footsteps backwards to the point of origin you find they all lived in the same two block area of the city. What are the odds of this happening in an area with over 75,000 people? As they say, too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence...
Shannon
|
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:17 am: | |
Leanne
* Elizabeth Stride had been living on and off with Michael Kidney at 38 Dorset Street.
According to Philip Sugden this address was misreported by the press, they actually lived at 36 Devonshire Street. Then again as several people are arguing against Stride as a Ripper victim this may be irrelevant.
|
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 77
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:23 am: | |
Shannon
It's actually not such a coincidence. Although Whitechapel in 1888 is made out to be a den of vice and sin by so many reports, actually it was mostly a fairly normal and respectable inner city working class area.
The two block area you refer to however was the area where most of the common lodging houses were to be found and as such was a haven for the criminal underclasses and those who live "off the radar" of society. As this was the class of people that Jack was mainly targetting, it's hardly surprising that this is where most of them lived. |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 448
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:53 am: | |
Hi Shannon,
Typical! Everything happens when I have to take a break for work or go to sleep...
Actually, Alan Sharp beat me to it with his excellent post -- I was going to jump in with exactly the same arguments.
Dorset Street was one of those streets that had the largest concentration of doss houses, criminals and prostitutes -- I really don't see the coincidences. And as far as I recollect, all the women referred to didn't live in the same place at the same time. It's all very circumstancial if you ask me.
And once again, if they did happen to know each other (which we naturally can't exclude as a possibility); what does that show? Nothing, I believe...
All the best, Shannon
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
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