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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » Kelly Photograph - High Resolution « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 23, 2003Leanne Perry25 6-23-03  6:26 am
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Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty

Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 8:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne,

HART ??

Lydia ??

A thought

Monty
:-)
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 450
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 9:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

I can't say exactly right now, but this was asked by someone before, on the old message board I think! If I remember rightly, it was something holding up the bed.

LEANNE
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Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert

Post Number: 311
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne

We're now into angles and Rubik's cube territory, which terrifies me - so I'll defer to you on this one.

Robert
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 453
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 4:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day Robert,

OK let's ask the question again, does anyone know what that thing is in square G9?

LEANNE
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Valerie S
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 5:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Leanne!

Judging from the other photo, it appears to be a pile of flesh that has fallen off of the table where the flesh from her thighs was placed. In the second photo you can see where the flesh is hanging off of the table in the approximate area of the object on the floor. I've never seen a pile of flesh so, I'm just guessing.
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Valerie S
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 1:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The diagrams of Miller's Court here,
http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-viperdossier.html,
shows a staircase directly behind that wall. If you look closely you can see it does look like a staircase.

Valerie
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 467
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

So if there was a staircase directly beyond that wall, they wouldn't have just taken down the partition to get that shot....would they?

Draw a line from the end of the staircase, looking across to the door...What do you think?

LEANNE
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jami
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 4:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

wow amayzing photographs but i dont see the supposed FM in the mary kelly pic.i as well followed the grid
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 470
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 4:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day jami,

Look at square 5/E, and you should see an 'M'. The left verticle edge of this square, runs right through the 'F'. That's the 'FM' that we're talking about.

Now look at square 5/C, you should be able to see the large 'H' of the word 'Hart' that I see. Now what do you see?

LEANNE
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 274
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have taken that section from the best quality copy of the pic I have and isolated the area where the supposed letters occur. I have then converted to greyscale and changed the gamma correction to enhance contrast. The supposed letter M is clearly visible but on this scale has more of the characteristics of blood flow. There are other variations of tone visible but these could easily be noise on the original photo and I cannot honestly say that I can make out any other clear letters.
Chris

fm
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Leanne Perry
Inspector
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 485
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

If what looks like 'FM' was not a spurt of blood from her sliced throat, how come its so dark and obvious? If it was intentionally rendered by the killer, wouldn't it appear lighter like a smear of blood, as he wrote with his finger? And why would he do it, letting the detectives narrow their search down to people with the intitials 'FM'?

If he wanted to give himself up that much, he could have just walked into any police station!

LEANNE
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Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty

Post Number: 148
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne,

If it is FM upon that wall then I see it as a taunt not a plea to capture him.

But assuming its intials may be misleading. It may mean something completely different ('Fantasic Monty' is my theory) ....of course...thats if there are letters upon that wall....if !

Monty
:-)
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Greentea2001
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 11:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Leanne, his whole thing was that he knew noone would catch him. He wanted to throw it in the scotland inspectors faces.


Melissa
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris

Post Number: 610
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 1:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all
Going back to the alleged initials on the wall, I thought it was a recent idea that anything had been written on the walls of Kelly's room.
Howvere, in a long article about the Kelly murder that I am working on at the moment, the following passage caught my eye:

kw

Hope it's of interest
The whole article will be going into the Press Reports
Chris
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 170
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've only found one person who agrees with me, but I have always thought that the "FM" looks like it is written on the photographic negative/plate rather than on the wall. Actually, when I look at the unenlarged photo it looks like a mere blood splatter. It is only when enlarged that it looks like an "FM."

Andy
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 394
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree, I think that if we didn't know about the assumed letters, then we wouldn't see it at all. To me it looks like streams of blood, nothing else. To interpret that as letters takes a bit of imagination, I think. (Whether it is something written on the negative/photo, I cannot say.)

All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz

Post Number: 410
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something perhaps to bear in mind is that the FM thought by some people to have been daubed on the wall in blood is not specifically referred to in the Maybrick Diary. An initial here and an initial there, but no mention of walls or what is meant by 'here' and 'there'. The writer leaves it to the reader's imagination, and some imaginations will inevitably be more fertile than others, reading more into marks on walls, and more into remarks in the diary, than the evidence entitles them to read.

Love,

Caz
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Dan L. Hollifield
Sergeant
Username: Vila

Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 9:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, when this FM question came up years ago, most everyone in the Casebook group concluded that the FM was something written on or written on something laying on the photograph itself and just imprinted into the paper. The next choice was that the FM was just random markings that became enhanced by many generations of photocopying. Either way, it amazes me how this hydra keeps regrowing heads as fast as we can cut them off.

Vila
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg

Post Number: 540
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, all:

If you look at the full size photograph, not just the part honing in on the mutilated body, there are discolorations on the whole expanse of the wall, going up toward the ceiling. I am not sure I buy the idea that the "FM" is a result of someone writing on the negative or print. Rather, I think it is something actually on the wall, although not writing. As I have said many times, the initials are rather low down to be any message from the killer, and the letters, if such they are very uneven, the "F" fainter than the "M" all of which makes me think that we are in the realm of Rorshach tests rather than something actually written as a message on the wall. Chris Scott's valuable post of Monday, October 06, 2003 - 1:43 pm quoting from a contemporary press report denying anything in terms of messages was found, helps to reinforce the idea that no messages were visible on the wall, wishful thinkers notwithstanding.

All the best

Chris
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Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 9:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Before you can get too far on the FM question you have to say which photo you are looking at and where you think you see the letters.

Begg's Jack the Ripper The Uncensored Facts has a photo of MJK that pretty clearly was copied over a couple different times. I can see an FM slanted at the top going off the top cut off of the crop (which would continue up the wall/door of the normal full link photo) which could be all sorts of other letters and looks like more would be after it if it weren't cropped. Below that can very clearly be seen marks that form numbers in a way that clearly is not blood on the wall but some sort of indentation on the photo. Lots of 8s and 5s. May be a phone number, or series of phone numbers. Somebody scribbled on the envelope or something, pretty obviously.

I understand that the FM as seen by other people is much lower and larger. Some other people see the FM elsewhere. Depends upon your photo source and imagination I guess.

I remember seeing one posted to the old boards that turned out to me to look like the words MARY KELLY but in reverse and also going across the bed so obviously on top of photo and not part of it. I don't know which book that one came from.

So before anyone can definitively say what the FM is or is not let's make sure we are talking about the same one.
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RichardBPoplar
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have downloaded 'A violet I picked from my mother's grave' but it will not play on my Windows XP Media player9. Does anyone else have it on file?

Much thanks
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 730
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 3:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi
Have it on tape played on piano and flute from the sheet music on boards.....its lovely


Cheers Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 732
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 3:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all.. spose I could do it by snail !mail tho!!!Just a thought!
Cheers Suzi
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Shelly
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Itís 05:38 and I canít sleep but this famous writing on the wall... I could for a second see the word ďheartĒ but than it was gone. It blends in with the panel/wall in so perhaps itís just that ones see?

I could defiantly see an M above the head of the bed. Itís letters everywhere to meÖ beside the M above the head of the bed, itís there.

(Sorry if I miss spell anything and stuff, itís late/early and Iím foreignÖ )
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5145
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Found this in "Notes and Queries" June 23rd 1866 :






Robert
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 482
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 3:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great article Robert,
Thanks for sharing.

On the subject of the superstition of photographing dead victims eyes, Daniel Farson has a rather good passage in his book "Jack The Ripper" (my copy Sphere paperback,1973),at Part One: Ch 4: page 52 (on Mary Kelly):-
"It has been claimed that photographs were taken,
on the instructions of Sir Charles Warren, of the eyes of Chapman, Stride, and now Mary Kelly.."
"..It" (the image in the eyes superstition)"is conveyed horribly and brilliantly in the short story by Rudyard Kipling:At the End of The Passage(1890)}:-
"tisn't in medical science."
"What?"
"Things in a dead man's eyes."
"For goodness' sake, leave that horror alone!" said Lowndes.
"I've seen a native die of fright when a tiger chivied him. I know what killed him."
"The deuce you do! I'm going to try to see." And the doctor retreated into the bathroom with a Kodak camera, splashing and grunting for ten minutes. Then there was the sound of something being hammered to pieces, and Spurstow emerged, very white indeed.
"Have you got the picture?" said Motram. "What does the thing look like?"
"Nothing there. It was impossible, of course. You needn't look Motram. There was nothing there. It was impossible."
"That," said Lowndes, very distinctly, watching the shaking hand striving to re-light the pipe, "is a damned lie".

Farson continues, "In 1857 an experiment was conducted by Dr Pollock in Chicago, using a microscope to examine the eyes of a murder victim, and he claimed that a partial image was found. In the Ripper's year of 1888, the New York Tribune reported that an assassin had been convicted in France on the strength of "eyeball photography". The macabre climax was reached as late as 1927 with the murder of PC Gutteridge by Brown and Kennedy who shot out both his eyes in order to eliminate any such evidence."
(They mustn't have taken the The Pall Mall Gazette ).
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5150
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 7:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi John

On this subject I recall seeing a very good film - several times - I think it was called Horror Express. An alien creature unearthed from the wastes of Siberia is being taken back to London by train. The creature revives, and sucks people's minds by gazing at their eyes, acquiring their knowledge and skills in the process. When they examine the creature, they find that all its knowledge is stored as eye images. Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee are in it.

Robert
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 483
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for that Robert,
Funny, I haven't seen the film Horror Express, but I think I once had a teacher like that.
Perhaps he was a reincarnated Montague Druitt!
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 484
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And another thing...
Regarding the advertisement for the FM radio station very astutely placed for maximum exposure by one of the London media barons on the back wall of Mary Kelly's blood-ridden boudoire, I seem to recall reading an account by a subsequent tenant of that Millers Court room, that they tried everything to scrub those markings off the wall...all to no avail.
Was it one of the editions of Dan Farsons JTR book? After his televised appeal for viewer's information?
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 5158
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 5:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know, John, but it says here that the blood was still there in 92.

http://casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kit.html

Robert

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