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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » "Oh Murder!!" » Archive through November 16, 2005 « Previous Next »

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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 667
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 4:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Caz and Sarah!
God I agree......Big time here!!!! a)
its not actually a phrase someone would say...well in the somewhat dubious compnay I keep!
b)I still think its a line that would have come from someone 'discovering' rather than being!!!!
Have to ge...getting hassle from being online too long!!!
Chat later!!! Cheers
Suzisarah.....smile too much and the world will guess!!!
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 1015
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 11:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Suzi,

smile too much and the world will guess!!!

Very good!!

It certainly does sound like someone discovering a body more than someone being murdered themselves which of course would add to the theory that it wasn't Mary who was killed.

I also think it could just be an exclamation such as "oh bugger".

Sarah
Smile and the world .... will wonder what you've been up to.
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Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir

Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 1:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You see, I do not have a favorite suspect, I am still trying to put this all together (I know you can't, but I am doing the best I can).
I just do not believe the witnesses when they were not coraborated by the people at the pub, or any other people. Like, the people that MJK bought the milk from. Surely, the police would have checked on that.

So I will continue to read what people write and form my opinion according to how I see the evidence fits as well as how things fall into place. A lot of good things come out here on the boards, some I agree with, some I do not. It is always nice to discuss.

But I digress.

Have a nice evening,

Vlad
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 691
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 5:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Sarah
Thanks for making me laugh here!!!
Yes must agree that the ubiquitous 'Oh Murder' line is seriously that of one dicovering rather than one being ripped up!! That I cant help but think would be the last word!!! OOOOOOh **** would probably be closer"""
Cheers suzi
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 1032
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 7:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Suzi,

Well at least I make somebody laugh, for the right reasons of course, I hope.

I agree about what her last words would probably have been. Actually, she may not have said anything if he had her by the throat.

Sarah
Smile and the world .... will wonder what you've been up to.
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Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Caz's post of 4/14 at 11:19. Something doesn't set right.

This is speculation only but what if:

It is the Autumn of Terror and JtR is known to be on the prowl.
You are a woman alone in the middle of the night.
You hear a cry of "Oh Murder" at that time.

Do you go outside to look around or stick your head out a window and risk being seen by whomever was doing whatever to cause the cry? Or do you huddle down in your bed and pray earnestly?

Again speculation, if the cry was by Mary, Prater may have heard more than she told but withheld the information out of either fear or because she felt some guilt that maybe she could have done something to help.

Sorry about being somewhat disjointed but I am trying to get this in between work tasks and the stupid cat insisting on jumping in my lap.

Best of wishes,

Billy
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Maria Giordano
Police Constable
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 4:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What if she was crying "oh, Mother"? (I understand that soldiers often call for their moms in battle).

What with her being Irish and having her throat slit, her enunciation may have been impaired.
Mariag
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 1040
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 9:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maria,

Interesting idea, but I'm pretty sure that, once your throat had been slit you would not have been able to speak a single word at all.

Also, if what we know of her is true, then she left Ireland when she was very young and lived most of her life in Wales and then moved to London. I doubt she would have sounded very Irish at all by 1888.

I still don't think that cry came from Mary's room, or if it did, then to me it supports the idea that she wasn't the corpse on the bed.

Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to.
Smile too much and the world will guess
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Maria Giordano
Police Constable
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 3:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sarah-- I was being a bit tongue in cheek there- is it OK to use something like ;-) here?

This brings me to a question-- unless you're really rooting for Joe Barnett to be the killer, does it really matter who was in the bed?
Mariag
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 828
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 4:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Ladies,
The cry almost certainly came from Kellys room, around 4am, but evidence points that it was one of two scenarios.
A] Her 'Oh murder' was the moment she was being attacked.
B] she was crying out from a nightmare.
If the former, she could hardly have been seen by three witnesses 4 hours later.
If the later, she could have been seen at that time.
We cannot disregard Lotties remarks about Kelly having a bad dream . that someone was murdering her, this obviously would prey on her mind, even tho , she laughed it off, she was scared stiff to spend nights alone , that is why she invited sleepovers, but on the night / morning of her death, none were present.
my suggestion is that her dream reoccured.
Richard.
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Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've said this a couple of times now on previous boards and for the record I'll say it again- FEAR is why many of the Whitechapel residents did not respond to the cry of "Oh Murder".

Sarah- I too thought that the Millar's Court body was not MJK, but after carefully reading sections of the casebook I have changed my mind and will agree to the body being that of MJK.

It's a real pitty that Mrs Pratter did not go down to MJK (or sent her husband) to complain about her singing- mayby MJK's life would have been spared.
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 5:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maria,

I don't understand. What do you mean by asking if it's important who was in the bed? All these years it has been generally accepted that Mary Kelly was killed in that bed on the morning, so if it was suddenly somehow discovered that it wasn't Mary then I think it would be very important.

Richard,

I don't think that the cry came from Mary's room at all or if it did, I don't think that it was due to Mary (or whoever) being murdered. It just doesn't seem right.

Sarah
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess
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Maria Giordano
Police Constable
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 6:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sarah-

What I mean is this-- if Joe is the killer and he's killing because he wants Mary to stop prostituting herself and then turns on her when she doesn't, then of course we should expect that the body on the bed is -for want of a better term- the REAL mary.

There is an argument that the witnesses who claim to have seen the real Mary were right and that she may have loaned out her room to someone else then come back later to find the carnage, cried "Oh,murder" then later lost her cookies.

Here's where I stand- Jack went out. He was lucky enough to find a woman who had a room. She took him to the room. He killed her. What did it matter to him who she was?

So I'm saying that Barnett aside, what difference does it make whose body was on that bed?

Hope I'm making sense.


Mariag
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Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 9:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Busy Beaver
Most or all of the women in Miller's Court were at least "casual" prostitutes. How could "fear" have possibly kept them from looking out a window, listening at a wall. or at least sitting up in bed?! They used to walk the streets alone at 2:00 in the morning when Jack the Ripper was on the prowl!
I believe they didn't do anything because hearing "Oh, murder!" in Miller's Court in 1888 was about as impressive as hearing your neighbor slamming his car door tonight.
Steve.
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Busy Beaver
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 4:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello there Steve
When something is happening right on your doorstep such as the Ripper murders, you don't really want to go and look do you? Just in case you bumped into Jack. Somethings can be too close to home. The murder behind 29 Hanbury Street was heard by a chap sitting on a step who thought he heard a thud against the fence. Why did he not look? He was too afraid.
Busy Beaver.
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Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 9:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Busy Beaver
Howdy!
Thank you for your reply!
The point you make is perfectly valid - and you're right; if I heard a scary, mysterious sound in the wee hours, I can certainly see myself hiding under the covers!
But I don't think someone saying "murder" then and there was all that mysterious. I think people heard it all the time, and it didn't mean someone next door was being killed.
If hearing "murder" was as common as I think, then we cannot use two women in Miller's Court having heard it - or thinking they heard it - to establish either time of death or time of discovery. It's just as likely - or more so - that it was the peddler's wife yelling at some kid stealing a penny's worth of whatever; or a prostitute in the court getting hit, pushed, or cheated.
Where I live, folks have been putting alarms in their cars for years. They go off accidently so often, that now people don't even turn their heads to look when they hear this horrid screeching and honking in a parking lot. Everyone just assumes it's a false alarm. It means nothing.
Steve
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Avril Ford
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 2:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Busy Beaver

Or maybe the man in Hanbury street just didn't care, as didn't many people. Life was cheap back then and people kept themselves to themselves.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3053
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 3:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been searching the "Times" for cries of "Murder". Here is one example.

AUG 5th 1882

n


Robert

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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3054
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 3:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And this is from an article of Jan 30 1890. Curiously, the witness later changed her story and said that there was only one murder cry.



Roberta
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 3055
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 4:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This murder account from Nov 29 1876 even has the "Oh".

v

Robert
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Dee
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 9:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am going to send in my reg form in order that I may be a regular poster.

But until then (and I admit I am a ripper novice!) I just cannot imagine someone realizing they are going to die and murmuring "Oh, Murder!" with the same tone one might use to say, "Oh shoot! Looks like rain today!".

I have pondered this for hours and no way can I even make this fit into a scenario that makes sense. Its nonsensical.

Nor can I imagine someone coming into the room, seeing the spectacle of that poor eviscerated body, and not screaming or wretching and calling for the police or help or calling SOMETHING. This was in the days before TV and movies had innured people to such horrific sights. And even for that area, it had to have still been a horrific ,horrifying sight.

IMHO, Prader had to have either been mistaken or lying. I just cannot make her statements fit together.

Of course, as I said, I'm a novice and as such are most willing to have something I overlooked pointed out to me!

Thanks,
Dee
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 8:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Each period has its own conventions of speech and phrasing.

Think of how the meaning of words has changed since 1888. Today the word "plastic" implies something quite solid and relatively hard. To a Victorian "plastic/or plastique" (as in pose plastique) the word implied malleability (as in the re-usable modelling clay, plasticene, I suppose). As another example, a "computer" in 2004 is a machine, to a Victorian it was a person who totalled up numbers!!

Just so the way words were spoken in the Uk of 1888, reflected the more rhetorical and melodramatic style of the theatre (this was the age of Irving); the music hall and the "penny dreadful" magazine. People did not speak, they declaimed!! "What dead!! And never called me,'mother'!! [East Lynne: probably the best known Victorian melodrama.]

Thus I find that I can take at face value statements that a cry of "Oh, Murder!!" was uttered by the victim. It fits with the period, experience and temperament of these people. They would have been equally aghast and disbelieving, I suspect, to be told that their descendents would be so taciturn that "cool - or kewl" would be regarded as a response in the year 2000.

Just my view,

Phil
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1548
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 2:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil

Firstly so good to see someone else quoting that wonderful line from East Lynne!!! Use it often probably to everyone's horror!

OK when you say theat 'it fits with the period,experience and temperament of these people' tho I feel that those qualities maybe didn't apply to the average resident on Whitechapel!!!!!
Way more likely to have screamed(or gulped in horror! ) delivered an expletive of some kind and run the hell out of there!!!!

Suzi
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 4:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Suzi, thank you.

I think the cultural influences among the non-immigrant population of the East End were probably quite strong. I used to be more familiar than I am now with Mayhew's writings (I once portrayed him on stage!!) but seem to recall that the theatrical conventions of the time did reach the poor, and women like mary kelly could easily have picked up that mode of expression.

I thin people really did "swoon", say "Alas!" and "Misery me", and "Murder!!". It was part of who they were.

Phil
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 372
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 2:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From the inquest of Elizabeth Stride which was held before the murder of Kelly and therefore was not influenced by it:
[Coroner] If there was dancing and singing in the club you would not hear the cry of a woman in the yard? - It would depend upon the cry.
[Coroner] The cry of a woman in great distress - a cry of "Murder"? - Yes, I should have heard that.
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 325
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 2:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil,

Hmmmmm. I still say "alas" which is unfortunate I suppose. I even regularly use "save" (in the sense of "except for") in conversation and I'm really not that old. Or thought I wasn't.

Don.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1552
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 5:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil!
a) SIGN up for the boards and register NoW!
b). As to the stage I've played Mrs Lovett in Sondheim's 'Sweeney' and OK a bit of type casting maybe.. but I know what you mean!
Am going to 'swoon' soon if anyone can persuade me that Mary looked at.. or was at the hands of 'The Ripper' or whoever and cried 'Oh Murder' Nope not convinced!!!!!!!!!!! Oh something but not Oh Murder!!!

Ooooooooooh well

Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1553
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 5:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don
I still say 'alas' too ALAS 'tis a great word that has to be used! Hey watch out for 'alas' on the boards as from now!!!!
Alas I think we may be on a loser here!!!!


Suzi
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 4:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's nice to keep the old conventions alive - I do the same when I can. I dislike "dumbing down" and playing to the lowest common denominator - but in dealing with the public these days there is no alternative but "plain English" I'm afraid. Alas!!

Phil
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Phil Hill
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 2:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Suzi - that you for your kind urging to become "official". I fully intend to do so - but thought I ought to see whether I was welcome first!!

Thank you again for your kind welcome.

On "Oh Murder!!" I think it in part depends whether your view of C19th people is external or whether you get into their heads (so far as ever one can). The latter I think helps make sense of it.

But the way Londoners speak has changed dramatically even in the last 50 years. Listen to old London acrresses like Kathleen Harrison or Irene Handl (now, alas, both dead) and they talk more quickly and sharply, and use different constructions to those you'll hear today (watch the soap "Eastenders" although there are few genuine Londoners in that I suspect).

Kathleen Harrison can be seen and heard (if no where else, in the Alistair Sim version of "Christmas Carol" (on dvd) but did huge amounts of film and radio work in here day (she was Mrs Hugget to Jack Warner's Mr in the 50s radio series).

Phil
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1141
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
It was stated by a woman named Lottie, that kelly told her she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and since that date she was really scared to venture out alone.
By Lotties remarks she was the next to go , it would imply that the dream occured in october after the double event, which would corresponde with Barnetts rambling on at her about the murders.
I Suggest that the 'Oh murder' cry came from Kelly having a reoccurence of that dream which would make more sence of that particular wording than actually being in a concious state and facing death, which one would imagine a full blooded scream would be more appropiate.
I feel that the reason she brought home other women to stay over was for company as she was scared to spend the nights alone, so the question is 'Where was Barnett staying nights before the 30th october?. Was he working , or was it his intention to scare her further knowing that she hated being alone and stayed at lodging houses on occasions.
Then when she brought home sleep-overs that plan also backfired and then he contemplated murdering her...
Richard.
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Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 138
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 4:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Phil--

I must second Suzi's request for you to register! Of course, you are welcome. I've only been registered for a few months myself but I lurked for years and I think that anyone who is so well "spoken" and can think clearly is always an asset.

Don, I think I'll start saying "alas" unless I get laughed at for putting on airs.

I keep thinking that if it were me being attacked I would have just screamed or shouted "help". "Oh,murder" does sound very melodramatic to these modern ears but what do I know?
Mags
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1563
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 5:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mags!
Cant beat a good 'Lurk' I say!!!! A L A S the potential for lurking these days is rare!!!

Phil-
Despite the fact that we seem to have locked horns on another thread I second Mags seconding me to get you to register!As to Kathleen Harrison I agree but the cast of Eastenders..............no way! you'll be into Mr Van Dyke next!!!!!ALAS!

Suzi
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 328
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 5:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mags,

I hope your musings about what you'd do if attacked never move from theory to practice.

As it is, about 20 years ago I was putting out the garbage at my mom's house around midnight when I heard several loud screams from up the road and went racing toward the sound.

A young woman (23) who lived a few houses from us was walking home a relatively short (quarter mile) distance from her fiance's home. This was pretty much the country, winding lanes, no lights. Anyway, a car had drawn up to her and asked for directions. Unwise of Barbara, but this was a quiet New England town, so Barbara approached the driver's side window to comply with his request when he suddenly grabbed her jacket and tried to pull her in.

She resisted and screamed and he slashed at her with a knife. Barbara did break free and luckily the knife ruined her bulky winter jacket but never got to her arm. She ran away and the driver sped off, unfortunately (alas?) in the opposite direction from which I arrived.

Point of this story is that she had often mused as you did, but she just wondered if she'd be able to scream. She did, though only a high-pitched, wordless scream.

Dismaying post-script is that a teen boy also on his way home saw the car and gave the police a license number. But, since it was registered some 80 miles away they simply said he was in error. Didn't even bother to check on the owner as far as I know. Country cops are loathe to do anything that interferes with a liesurely life that has a fat pension at the end of the line.

Don.
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Maria Giordano
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 139
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 5:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don-

I've often wondered if I'd be able to get any sound out either. How awful for your friend. were there any other attacks or murders around there at the time? Seems like the bad guy had quite a huntng range.That's just despicable of the police and I like to think that it wouldn't be so cavalierly shrugged off nowadays. Perhaps I'm naive.
Mags
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 329
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mags,

Hate to take up space with what is essentially off-topic, but there were a couple interesting aspects to what passed for the investigation. Barb was asked to look at photos of "known deviants," the pile of which was dismayingly large. And for some reason they did have a cop in plainclothes staking out the area the next night who was so inept that I immediately sniffed him out and called the police to report a suspicious male hiding in the woods. A few red faces there.

What struck me as interesting was that the road the guy specifically asked for in fact paralleled that of the attack about a half-mile closer to town, suggesting either the attacker really wanted the info initially or it was the first road that came to mind. I tried to check on any parties or visitors on that road that night, but all I could do was ask a couple families I knew on the road without any luck. But, since the police had not made similar inquiries, I gather they saw nothing in that line of thought.

Barb was an artist and had made a very good sketch of the guy and about 18 months later I saw on TV a fellow arrested some 50 miles away for several attacks who seemed to me a dead ringer for the drawing. But, by then Barb was happily married and was not of a mind to pursue that possibility.

Anyway, are you getting the sense, at least in my case, that Ripperologists are born not made?

Don.
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Phil you wrote

"Thus I find that I can take at face value statements that a cry of "Oh, Murder!!" was uttered by the victim. It fits with the period"

I think you are right here, and have said as much in an earlier post.

And there is an example of such a cry uttered by a(potential) murder victim in 1889.

I recently read an article where a Chinese immigrant attacked a woman in a public house(in Limehouse, I think), her friend rushed out into the street and brought a policeman.

Giving evidence in court against the immigrant, the policeman told the court that upon approaching the door to the public house he heard a womans voice cry, "oh murder".

I will look the article up and quote it in full.

This though, would suggest that the phrase was in use at that time.

I wonder if the phrase could have made it's debut in some cheap novel, or rag of the time?

Or perhaps on the stage?

Regards Cludgy



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Tuffty.
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 2:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

i just wanted to put my opinion in, for whatever it's worth.
when it comes to whether mary had of been too scared to 'work' during the ripper crimes, i get the feeling that even though this case really did rock the world, ESPECIALY the citizens of whitechapel, it is a known fact that murders werent uncommon, and if mary was a prostitute, she would have known the score... is it not possible that her pimp or another 'working' friend had deliberately found her work at home to be 'safe'??? or, could she have been aproached by a customer in the pub she was noted to be at, and speaking of her concerns to work that night, he could have 'reasured' her that in her lodgings it would be safe? after all, all the murders had been commited outside so far - she could have easily assumed, like the rest of us, there was a pattern...the man could have been a perfect gentleman...the pimp or friend who had got her the work, could even have said he was someone importent, due to the fact he looked wealthy and she would be safe, especialy at home.
or, the fact that mary kelly worked in the height of the murders could say more about who the murderer was, and what status he had, than we think.

in three of my favorite books about jack, they report that before mary kellys murder, the police, at one stage, had an idea that jack may have been two people, the killer and the accomplice, which i firmly believe. i also believe that it could have been the accomplice who confronted her with the option to earn her money in her own lodgings. life doesnt get much worse than it was in those days, especialy if you were a prostitute with little to no money...and it also states that she was 6 weeks behind with her rent. mary could have been so desperate for money, and this prospect seamed the safest she could get, she simply had no choice.
thats just my opinion on it any way.
after reading as many books on the subject as i could get my hands on, and ofcourse reading through this website aswell as any televeision documentaries i could catch, i still believe it was two people, though what kept the hurrendous secret between them secure, i dont know.
in the time the murders took place, they said time and time again about how he vanished into the shadows...i believe this points strongly toward the fact he could have had a 'get-a-way' carrige, and i believe the driver, for whatever reason, was sat keeping watch/waiting to make a break for it when jack returned. the accomplice may have even led the girls into the dark alley ways as 'jack' climed out, or possibly he led the poor women into the coach.
also...do we assumed he killed his victims where they were found? what he did to the corpses must have taken alot of time....had he a coach, could he not have begun his work in there? and if the coach were moving, could that too, explain the jaggedness of the cuttings, and why they were in two minds if he were a surgeon or not???
well, this was what i thought, except one thing bothered me...if all that is true...how was he able to remove the organs entirely, without damaging the surrounding organs, but the movement of the coach caused the opening cuts to be jagged??? even if he had of been a fantastic surgeon...surely the removed organs would have been damaged, and or, the surrounding organs as he cut the desired pieces away?
unless the 'cutting open' was done on the move, and the detailed work was carried out after the coach had pulled to a stop, but i just do not see how he could have followed his 'disection' through in some of the places where the bodies were found, and isn't that one thing which baffled the police? 'how did no one see anything'?

i have gone totally off subject, now and i'm sorry! im incredibly interested in this case, so i will go back to what this particular thread is all about:

the 'oh, murder' to me....sounds like an old fasioned 'oh, s**t'.
i can't explain why, but when i first heard of the 'oh, murder' speach, i instinctively read it - not as a warning or something said out of fear - but as if an accident had happened.
*knocks over picture, breaks on the floor.* OH, MURDER!
or am i being stupid?

anyway, keep up the posts! i enjoy reading through all your ideas and opinions on the case. xxx
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Sandy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sandy

Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 1:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Everyone!
It has been a while since I have posted, so please understand if I sound a bit disjointed. I posted a while back concerning the "Oh, Murder", and I discussed how this scenario would have been for JtR. He was in that room with only one way out. Would he feel comfortable staying there and continuing his madness after she screamed out like that? Looking at the amount of destruction that he had inflicted upon her, he would have had to have been there for a great deal of time after she died. That is a lot of confidence that someone in the neighborhood is not going to come and investigate. With regards to what Mary (if it was in fact Mary that cried out), I admit that it sounds strange that "Oh, Murder" would be what she would cry out. Here is a suggestion that might support the theory that she called out "Oh, Murder" instead of "Help!" The fact that there were women who still prostituted themsleves during the "Autumn of Terror" shows two things. The first is that of survival. These women were poor, they were starving, and many (if not all) were addicted to the bottle. Staying indoors what not an option for these women. The second thing is this: There is a personal bias that people have where the thinkiing is "It's not going to happen to me". We all have it. People who smoke and don't believe that they will end up with cancer. People who drink and then get behind the wheel. They don't believe that they will be the ones who get into an accident. So, Mary goes out in the middle of the night. She brings a man to her room. Both parts play in this. The survival, as well as the personal bias that nothing is going to happen to her, regardless of the notices around the neighborhood and the newspaper accounts. When she realizes something is wrong, she panics. She cannot believe that this is actually going to happen to her. She may have only had a small moment to be able to shout out anything. If she is in a panic (which I think it might be safe to assume that she was), instead of yelling help (which she may have even intended), all she can think is that the killer is in her room and she is going to die. He is going to murder her, and the word murder is all she can think of, and that is what ends up coming out of her mouth. I hope that I am making sense with this. I welcome any and all posts concerning this. Yes, I have a good imagination. Yes, this is just a theory, and it may not be the best one. However, I do think that this scenario could explain the "Oh, Murder". Thoughts?
Sandy
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 1000
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 1:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Tuffty,

There's no evidence that the police considered an accomplice. After the Kelly murder they did use the idea of someone else possibly knowing important information as an excuse to offer deals to try to convince people to come forward, but that's not to say that they suspected someone was directly helping. Certainly no one waiting in a carriage. That seems to be the influence of popular fiction working on you there.

Hi Sandy,

Crying "murder!" at the time was actually the best way to try to call for help. "Help" is quite vague and doesn't convey the importance of the situation. "Murder" is more specific, and brought more attention... at least until it got over-used for non-murderous events and became ignored and passed out of common usage, which is why it sounds strange to modern ears. There are actually countless cases in Victorian times of people crying out "murder!" when being attacked or finding a body, so there's no real need to explain why they'd use that particular word.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile    Email    Dissertations    Website
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Sandy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sandy

Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 2:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,
Thanks for the information. However, I was simply putting forth a possible reason for why she would have cried out what she did from a standpoint of actual fear and not because of the times. There have been posts on this thread that discuss whether or not she would have cried out "Oh, Murder", and I was simply contributing my own thoughts on the matter. I based my above post on something a bit more primal, more innate than the times. The situation Mary found herself in was not something being acted out on a stage. Mary was about to be murdered, and if she did in fact cry out, she knew what was about to happen to her. I was just looking at this from a different angle, that's all. Others have discussed why she would have cried out what she did, and I feel that seeing it from a different angle and putting it out there is certainly justifiable. I still personally feel that Mary did not cry out, because that would have put JtR in a tight position. Just because he was inside does not necessarily mean he had a better advantage than when he killed on the street. From what we know about the other victims, nothing was heard. Now I realize that that does not mean these other women did not cry out, but if the other victims did not cry out, and Mary did, this would have put JtR in a much different situation. Seeing the amount of damage that had been inflicted upon Mary suggests that JtR stayed in that room for a great deal of time after the murder. I'm not sure if he would have had the confidence to do that if she had cried out before he killed her. Now I realize that these are just suggestions, however I also feel that they are valid, and appropriate for this thread.
Sandy
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1566
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 2:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Sandy,
I agree with you, If the murder was committed during darkness hours then any scream would have echoed through that court, and the killer would have been in a tight spot.
When Mjk was killed i would doubt if any sound would have been made as her killer would have prevented any possible sound, if the victim had bellowed out he would have not risked being trapped in that room, from which he would have had no escape.
I still maintain that any sound of ' Oh murder' was either a sound that was not in any way connected to Millers court, or it was uttered by mary Kelly in a dream like state, with no killer present at the time.
But lets face it to escape from the room and try to fight your way through a narrow pasage which was only wide enough for a man to walk through at a slight angle is not a good option.
Regards Richard.
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Sandy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sandy

Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 3:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Richard,
That is how I am seeing it. Even if the neighborhood had become indifferent to cries of murder in the middle of the night, that does not mean that JtR would know that. Plus, it is one thing for JtR to believe that no one would answer her cry, it is something completely different to have full confidence (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that her cry would go unheeded, especially if the cry of murder was a common means of getting (or attempting to get) someone's attention. It is possible, I suppose that the cry of "Oh, Murder" could have been from someone who had stumbled upon the scene, but then that would beg the question, why didn't this person come forward? Why would someone who had unwittingly become a witness to such a horrible sight not go immediately to the authorities? Here is something else that I have been thinking about. All of the other victims were killed outside. There were dark alleys, doorways, and other places where JtR could easily utilize to escape at a moments notice. With the poor lighting outside it would have been easier for the killer to sneak up upon his victims (or have the ability to mask his intentions) until it was too late, which would keep his victims from having any time to cry out. Unless there was no light on in Mary's room while the killer was there, wouldn't he have realized that the opportunity of a "sneak attack" would be lost? I'm not sure if I am making any sense with this one. I know what I want to say, I am just not sure if it is coming out right. Being in Kelly's room, JtR (if it was him) he would have in a sense been just as trapped as she was. Wouldn't he have realized that?
Sandy
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1567
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 3:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Sandy,
Yes he would have realized that , that is why if the scream did occur and he just carried on , he either was prepared to take a chance or proberly like sex attackers the urge was too strong, or he had pre arranged for this particular woman to die and there was no going back.
It has been stated that the reason why he decided his next victim was going to be indoors was because of the vast police presense in the area, however i maintain that he would have more chance to escape outside then trapped in a room with only one exit and a court with only one exit.
Even in hanbury street he had a escape route via the back yard over the fences on both sides.
This murder is special, she was nothing more then a young woman twenty years younger then the others, she was the worst mutalated by far, and the killer was determined to finish the job he came for regardless of any possible dangers.
Richard.
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Sandy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sandy

Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 4:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Richard,
Iam starting to think that the direction this is going in, we should probably put this under a thread that MJK may not have been a victim of JtR. If Mary was in fact the one who cried out that night, this could be taken as another sign that she may not have been a victim of JtR. As far as we know, the other victims did not make a sound. Wouldn't the fact that Mary cried out be considered another example of a change in M.O.? My point is, if JtR was slick enough, and quick enough to subdue his victims immediately, then it seems as if whoever was in Mary's room was a different killer. Sorry, this is complete speculation, and it should probably be presented under a different thread. Like you said, this murder was special. In other words, this murder was different. What do you think the chance is that the person (Mrs. Prater)/people who claimed to have heard the cry were just trying to get her/thier 15 minutes of fame?
Sandy
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1572
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 5:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sandy,
The noise factor is not exactly correct, there is evidence or should i say reports that Tabram, may have cried out, there are reports that Nichols was attacked in Brady street before falling in Bucks row, there is a report that Chapman may have cried out the word 'No', there is a report that Stride was attacked by a broad shouldered man in Berner street and screamed [ not loudly] a couple of times.
Eddowes never had a chance to utter a sound [ that at least was heard]
So I dont believe that the screams or resistance would worry the killer, because ways of escape were evident, but in the case of Millers court, he as we both have mentioned was trapped.
Richard.
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Sandy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sandy

Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 6:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Richard,
I stand corrected. Thank you for keeping me on track.
Sandy
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Sandy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sandy

Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 6:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Richard,
I stand corrected. Thank you for keeping me on track.
Sandy
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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 1898
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day,

'He was in that room with only one way out. Would he feel comfortable staying there and continuing his madness after she screamed out like that?'

If such cries were commonly heard in the area and no one reacted after hearing them, I would say that points to a killer who knew this as he once resided there himself.

I believe the killer, Joseph Barnett, hesitated perhaps long enough to smoke his pipe, leave it on the mantle piece and covered Kelly's wound with the sheet, (just in case some one did come knocking on the door). Then he could have claimed she was asleep. (wasn't her body moved from the far side of the bed?)

After a short wait, no one came to investigate, his anger built up while he was waiting, so he proceeded to do what he did, and took her heart!

LEANNE
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Tuffty
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 3:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hello Dan,
fiction? damn
oh well, i will have to take your word on it as i'm not as clued up on jack the ripper as most people on here are, but im almost posative that i read it somewhere that there was a second person involved - unless like you say, they were under the idea someone could have known something.
still, what confuses me is how this man escaped each scene of the crime without a trace.
surely a carrige or some kind could explain this?
also, i was wondering if you could explain something to me... my sister has told me that there were a few murders before 'the rippers', which were more-or-less the same style of killing, and also she says that they aren't entirely sure that the murders ended with mary kelly. what's your take on this?
aparently there were a few more which were kept quiet.

hey sandy,
i liked the bit in your post: 'we don't believe it will happen to me', and i think youre right, but how do we know mary jane bought someone back? i read somewhere that alot of prositutes had pimps, could it not have been the pimps way of working her but making sure she was safe? hmmm...
i think you could have hit the nail on the head with the 'oh murder' speach, though.

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