| Author |
Message |
    
Eddie Derrico
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:12 am: | 
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My son saw this after reading a post about a clue on one of the victims. Take the "Diary of Jack the Ripper" book by Shirley Harrison. Hold it under some lighting. Go to the enlarged photo of Mary Kelly. Look right below the garter on her right leg. Tell us what you see. I looked at it and saw what looked like a few letters. When I showed it to my son, he read the message immediately. It is a nickname on the leg. I'm not going to say what it is because I want someone else to confirm what we see. You might need a magnifyer.
Yours Truly
Eddie |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Hi Eddie,
your post had me reaching for my copy of the book and you are absolutely correct, there is definately a message there but even under the light and with my glasses on i cannot make it out fully , but i will state positively that Mary kelly was wearing a stocking on her right leg that red line is definetly a garter it is so clear.
I stated once that i believe kelly was attacked whilst she was almost undressed apart from a chemise and her right stocking, the left one is on the top of her pile of clothing.
I hope this thread is full of debate i feel it warrants it.
Thanks
Richard. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 91
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:48 pm: |
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Hi Eddie
My daughter can see ?IG?ZY ( maybe it's only visible to a certain age group!)
....But there can't be anything written there! the police and doctor's and whoever else entered the room would never have missed such a massive clue!!!
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 301
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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No, there is no lettering there, I'm sure! The printing process takes away some of the details in a photo anyway, and the human mind have a tendency to connect dots that should not be connected, trying to make sense out of chaos. We do it all the time.
Even Lowell did that mistake looking at Mars
(anyone remembers the "Canals"?)
We also try to make sense out of shapes that does not necessarily make sense at all.
What we are talking about is a well known effect. Had we not had the ability to process information in this way, we could not have known that a potato was a potato unless it was absolutely similar to the last potato we saw. (as an example). Or we would not be able to encrypt handwriting that differed slightly from the handwriting we initially learned (as another example).
(Ok, this is a very simplified way of trying to explain this, but you get the point)
We interpret images in a fluid way, and sometimes our brain makes a mistake. Actually it is pretty rare that we get fooled, and usually we spot the error instantly and don't actually believe that what we think we see is actually what we see.
It is seldom anyone points to a cloud saying "there is a rabbit", we say, "that cloud looks like a rabbit". However, some simulacra are "better" than others.
http://www.forteantimes.com/gallery/simulacra.shtml
Debra is of course absolutely right. If there was any letters on Mary, the police would certainly have noticed. That goes for cryptic letters on the walls as well.
What we have is wounds and\or blood spatter.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 21, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 302
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
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Oh, just for entertainment purposes. More simulacra and pareidolia.
http://web.tri-isys.com/egtan/hokum/pareidolia.html
Some of them seems to me to require a LOT of open mindedness, though.
Helge
(amended to make the link work, thanks Debra)
(Message edited by helge on September 21, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5028
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
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Just below the garter can be read the words....Moss Bros.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 92
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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Aparently, I have just seen on another thread it's supposed to be the word PIGGY that can be seen, my daughter was close then!!...that rattles me a bit!!!!
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 303
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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I read Gi Goen, which is obviously Jack's mispelling of Get going..
There's also a number 5
Well, actually there is not, but that is what my "biological, developed through thousands of years, pareidolic image processor" tells me.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 93
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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If the word scrawled on the leg is supposed to be piggy I don't understand the significance anyway, is there a suspect with the nickname Piggy? |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 304
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:31 pm: |
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Debra,
If some people see one thing, other people should be able to see the same thing, there is nothing "rattling" about that.
What scares me is why I see something so different. Maybe I'm crazy after all?
Hahah
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 305
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
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Debra,
There ain't no Piggy.
I see no Piggy.
Please say you see Gi Goen...
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 94
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
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You are probably too old Helge! only the kids can see it! You saw more than I did though.
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 306
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
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Seriously,
Would a killer write his nickname anyway?
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 307
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:35 pm: |
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Yes, I'm too old, but my point about simulacra\pareidolia is still valid. There is actually nothing there!
helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 95
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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that's good then because I can't see anything! Maybe a G if I squint a bit.
I did see a spoon under the table once though.
I can't wait to hear the explanation of what Piggy is supposed to mean. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 378
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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PIGGY!? Does that mean it's Charles Manson again or was the Ripper a Beatles fan as well?
Stan |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 308
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:50 pm: |
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Stan,
The Fab Four probably stole that from Jack, not the other way around
"Everywhere there's lots of piggies
Living piggy lives"
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 379
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:54 pm: |
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Yes, and as Dr. Jeffrey McDonald told, 'Acid is groovy. Kill the pigs.' |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 96
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
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Helge the link was good once I added an extra h at the beginning.
Jesus in the cheese on toast has always been my favourite one! |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 309
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
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I just realized...
George Harrison is almost George Hutchinson...
If you squint a bit.
Nah....
Too late for me in my time zone! Night everyone...
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 742
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
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Helge - I am not George Harrison. Just thought you would want that confirmed.
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Krishna Krishna, Krishna Hare...
Oh if only there were really letters there... but photos get touched up as well. I have seen some photos of MJK1/2 where there is no sign of the JM or FM or whatever it is meant to be by her head and then others... there it is.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 311
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 2:40 am: |
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Oh Sweet Lord...
I still believe in the dictum that nothing can be confirmed with absolute certainty. It's all relative anyhow.
Allright, for old times sake, I will make an exception. I believe you, Hutchie Boy.
But just barely.
I like a good conspiracy or a mystery as much as the next guy, but, sadly there is none here.
Except it's a good whodunnit, of course!
(The murder that is, not the writing)
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1476
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 3:25 am: |
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Hi,
I am bewildered what i believed was going to be a serious thread has so far turned into a farce
First of all.
Robert you state 'Just below the garter'
Am i therefore right to assume that you believe that dark mark on her right leg is part of a elasticated top to a stocking?.
Is there anybody who believes that is a precise cut across her calf?.
Look at the bundle of bedding or clothes to the right of the garter, the white band going by width and hanging shape has all the signs of her left stocking.
There is some lettering just below the top of the elastic of course it may be deceptive but i believe it should warrant serious attention and debate until proved to be just a illusion.
Regards Richard. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 97
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:06 am: |
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Hi Richard
I think it's quite possible that there is the mark from a garter on Mary's leg, but I can't see a stocking at all, either on the leg or at the side of her leg.
In this book, which laid out forensic guidelines for doctors and coroners of the time, there is a chapter on identifying unknown bodies, there is also a description of Mary Kelly's mutilations, apparently, looking for garter marks below the knee was one method for identifying class;
Hamilton, Allan McLane. A system of legal medicine. 2nd ed. New York, 1907 c[1900]. 646pp. Vol. 1 of 2
>>Another mark is that made by the garter on the legs of a woman. This may be above or below the knee.
It is more customary to find this mark among the lower classes, and is usually below the knee,
I believe because the richer classes wear suspenders or garters above the knee. This may be a means towards establishing identity.<<
>>Elizabeth Jackson description ( in the same book)
There is no mark either side on the thighs or the legs, as is made by pressure of a garter.<<
Richard, are you saying that you think the writing may be on Mary's stocking?
Debra
Debra
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1477
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:25 am: |
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Hi Debra,
Intresting points raised, a mark made from a garter i had not considered before, and determining class is intresting although in the case of kelly and her identification i would have considered it a certainty what class she belonged in.
Yes you are right i do not see that mark as a pressure mark i see it simply a hold up elasticated stocking top, and any words that appear to be on her leg were added on to the stocking.it would be so informative if one could determine that article of legware as a stocking simply it would then give a insight into when and how she was killed.
My thought is as there does not appear to be a stocking or elasticated top on her left leg that she was killed whilst sitting on her bed just after she had stripped to her chemise and removed her left stocking turning round to place it over her clothes.
I suggest she was taken completly by surprise and apart from a brief act of defensive mode was soon dead.
Regards Richard |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 98
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:56 am: |
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Hi Richard
In the book Mary's case is used to highlight the procedures which could be used to determine the sex of a body when all the usual signs have been destroyed ie, breasts cut off, face mutilated etc.
It does say;
" In the particular illustative instance, the woman was murdered in a bedroom. The body was naked when found."
If she had been wearing a chemise or stocking it would have been noted and pointed out surely?
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 313
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:59 am: |
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Richard,
I'm sure I am one of the people "turning this into a farce", and I apologize. Just some late night fun, I have no intentions to ridicule your, or other people's opinions, although I'm pretty sure the solution is to be found in the simulacra/paleidoria "syndrome".
Some arguments against such markings can be found in Dr Bond's report. I quote:
"Notes of examination of body of woman found murdered & mutilated in Dorset St.
Position of body,
The body was lying naked in the middle of the bed the shoulders flat, but the axis of the body inclined to the left side of the bed. The head was turned on the left cheek. The left arm was close to the body with the forearm flexed at a right angle & lying across the abdomen, the right arm was slightly abducted from the body & rested on the mattress, the elbow bent & the forearm supine with the fingers clenched. The legs were wide apart, the left thigh at right angles to the trunk & the right forming an obtuse angle with the pubes.
The whole of the surface of the abdomen & thighs was removed & the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera. The breasts were cut off, the arms mutilated by several jagged wounds & the face hacked beyond recognition of the features. The tissues of the neck were severed all round down to the bone.
The viscera were found in various parts viz; the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side & the spleen by the left side of the body.
The flaps removed from the abdomen & thighs were on a table.
The bed clothing at the right corner was saturated with blood, & on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about 2 feet square. The wall by the right side of the bed & in a line with the neck was marked by blood which had struck it in a number of separate splashes."
Now, we see that Dr Bond is pretty accurate, and we should expect no less! Also, he remarks on other things than just the condition of the body.
It is reasonable to expect that had there been any odd lettering on the walls, or things written on MJK, or on any stocking, or whatever, he would have mentioned it.
Regarding the wall, for example, he states there were a number of separate splashes. If there were any letters, he would have told us so. It is pretty safe to say that any letters anyone believe to see on the wall is simply those splashes, that Dr Bond, being there, DID NOT INTERPRET AS UNUSUAL AT ALL.
Likewise, had there been any letters on the body of Mary, it is not only likely, but certain, that it would have been noted.
Dr Bond was there, he looked over the actual scene, not some grainy old photograph, and we should accept that what he saw was reality, and what we think we see that does not correspond to that, is overwhelmingly likely to be false.
I might add that there is also a postmortem examination of MJK by Dr Bond, and, although it goes into far more detail about the condition of the body, there is no indication of any hidden messages there either.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 22, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 99
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:34 am: |
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Richard
Just one last thought
If you can see the letters at the top of the stocking then a bit further down you should be able to see a huge number 5 that Helge pointed out, just to the right of that are what look to me like 5 or 6 different sized cuts or abrasions running parallel to each other, wouldn't her stocking have been ripped to shreds and be more noticeable on the picture if the killer made these cuts.
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 315
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:34 am: |
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Richard,
I am unable to say with absolute certainty that there is no stocking, but I'm pretty sure there's not. Look at the obvious wound on the calf, there appears to be nothing but flesh (skin) around it.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 316
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:36 am: |
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Debra, my post crossed yours, but you pretty much argue for the same thing that I did!
(better, I might add)
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 22, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5031
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:25 am: |
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Hi Richard
I've never really gone for the garter idea, but I'm not dogmatic about it.
I think it's extremely important for its implications for various scenarios.
Robert |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2979
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Richard
I AM! honestly dont go with the garter!!!!!! anyway we'll agree to differ!!!! as to the MJK graffiti perleaaaaaase!
Must have to hire a 7 yr old to have a check!!!!!
Suzi |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1478
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 3:21 pm: |
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Hi,
I hate to be repetative although i spend much of the times on these boards doing precisely that.
If you observe closely the blow up picture in the Shirley Harrison book you will clearly see on kellys right leg a band right across her calf with lettering below it further down you have what is interpreted as a 5 also the letter M ,under this there is a smear but apart from the ankle area and the foot the leg is comparatively clear of blood.
I would suggest that the her right calf was not cut and the damage occured above and just below the knee and the blood the way the leg is positioned ran down on the bedding.
it is therefore my believe that the killer left some clue on her right stocking , incidently the Fm on the wall could have not been that but a carbon copy which was on her leg which albeit my eyesight could have been Jm [ James Maybreck] or better still Jm Joe /Mary.
To sum it all up either that marking a garter, a elasticated top, or a cut right across her leg which seeps no blood. which one folks.?
Regards Richard.
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 318
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 3:33 pm: |
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Richard,
Just for the record, I see a number 5, but I don't think it is.. If you see what I mean.
From the details on the photos I have available right now, I'd say the "garter" is probably a circular cut. But there is no way I'll swear it is.
There would be little blood if the cut was done well after death. As you see, the large gash in her leg is also not seeping blood.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1479
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 3:58 pm: |
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Hi Helge,
I am glad that this thread is beginning to swing in the analyzing mode.
I agree that blood would be minimised if any cut was made some time after death but the very fact that the what appears to be a circular cut or elasticated top/ garter is in a exact position that a east ender in that position would wear a stocking swings me in favour of such a proposal.
also what is that white stocking shape to the right of her leg on the bundle which i believe to have been Marys rolled up clothes.
The reason why i am reluctant to let this thread drop is as Robert said 'I Think it is extremely important for its implications to various scenerios'.
I Agree entirely with that observation.
Regards Richard. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 100
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Richard
I can say what I think it isn't and that is definitely NOT a stocking with scrawl on...no way would this have gone unnoticed Richard!!
I did notice earlier that you described a RED line on MJK's leg, no disrespect, but you seem to be describing what you want to see rather than what is there.
I would have expected the mark left by a garter to be much feinter than this one is, but it could be an actual garter I will give you that, tie on garters were very popular at the time, but then again why isn't this mentioned anywhere.
The most likely explanation to me is that it is a cut.
Debra |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 745
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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Just checked the Harrison - the only time it is opened is for photo reference - and it should be clear to even the most basic of researchers that there is categorically no writing below the - probable - circular cut on her right leg. If the MJK1/2 shot on the page below is inspected it is perfectly obvious they are bloodstains. On the larger image the contrast has been intensified to white out and remove most of the marks and leave traces which look - blurred and in dot matrix - like they could be letters or numbers. They are not. No way.
I'm amazed we even have to discuss this!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 101
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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Hi Philip
Actually my daughter saw the letters ( not that we think they are real letters!!) in the picture in Stephen Knight's book ( it was the closest to hand with the picture in ) I flogged the Shirley Harrison one on ebay last year.
Debra |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 746
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:58 pm: |
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Hi Debra
Shirley Harrison should be flogged on more than just eBay. The only reason Knight is exempt is because he is no longer with us!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 102
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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He was my first, I just can't bare to part with him!
Debra |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 384
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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I wouldn't part with them either but luckily I didn't purchase these damaging works.
Stan |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1480
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:09 am: |
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Hi.
George may be right in explaning the different picture qualities in condeming the existance of writing.
I would accept that however regardless of what picture you look at there is still the circular cut shape on her leg which has to be explained.
The positioning of the cut and the killers intentions.
As mentioned the cut is in the precise position that one would expect a garter or hold up elastic stocking to have been.
A lot has been said about 'surely the police would have noticed'
Answer. they proberly did.
Did kelly wear a ring or rings?
Did kelly have toe nail polish on?
Is there a full inventory of her attire?.
The fact is the police and Doctors on the scene were in horror at the discovery, and it is quite plausible that the fact that kelly was wearing a stocking on one leg or a tie on garter would at that time be irrelevant.
But it could nowadays present more of a clue.
Richard. |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 319
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:17 am: |
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Richard,
I see what you mean, but I don't see what you see.
Mary's clothes was not bundled up on the bed, for starters. We know this...check any reference book.
This post crossed your latest, Richard, so I'll amend it slightly:
I agree one stocking on might be a clue, as it would indicate Mary was not finished undressing before she was attacked. That would indeed be a vital clue. However, there is no way the stocking could have gone unnoticed at the post mortem, even if it was overlooked initially, IMO.
Besides, both Dr Phillips and Bond agreed on that Mary had been lying on the right side of the bed while killed. So evidently, she HAD gone to bed.
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1481
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:43 am: |
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Helge,
I believe we are all guilty of misreading the facts due to all the publications we have all grown up with.
Indeed Mjks clothing was reported to be on a chair proberly the broken backed one.
However the layout of the room originaly is debatable for eg, a washstand was reported between the partition and the bed, the table and chairs were reported near the window,
we simply do not have any knowledge if when mary and joe were living there the bed was further away from the partition enabling both parties to exit the bed from either side, we do not know if the chair was not up against the partition wall where that bundle appears,
Incidently if not clothing what is the bundle rolled up bedclothes?
Surely on such a miserable night kelly would not have slept in a sheet.
Mayby she was killed before she had time to unwrap the bundle?.
Summing up.
We have to have knowledge of the true layout of the room and its contents and there positioning to make any kind of scenerio plausible.
Richard. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1482
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:58 am: |
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Hedge,
Assuming she had ' Gone to bed' only wearing a chemise[ or naked in some opinions] she clearly if the bundle was bedclothes not unwrapped them, the biggest clue mayby is that as there is no sign of blankets rolled back in the picture she was killed whilst awake.
That is of course if that bundle was bedclothes?.
Unless we believe kelly had loads of spare bedclothes blankets etc;
If the bed was always up against the partition it would make sense that kelly slept on that side of the bed as when Barnett was in work he could exit the bed without climbing all over Kelly.
Richard. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 103
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Hi Richard
Although I don't agree with you on the writing on the stocking thing, I am however very interested on the layout of Kelly's room etc and why she appears to have been sleeping with no bedclothes on in the middle of November with a broken window !
I will need to read up a bit more on the subject though to refresh my memory.
Debra |
Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 320
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Richard,
Basically I agree with your thinking here, but luckily we need not reinvent the wheel.
I quote from a letter to the Home Office by Dr Bond Nov 10th 1888:
"In the Dorset street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the womans head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack."
"In the Dorset Street case, he must have attacked from in front or from the left, as there would be no room for him between the wall and the part of the bed on which the woman was lying."
From the Kelly Inquest:
Dr Phillips:
"On the door being opened it knocked against a table, the table I found close to the left hand side of the bedstead and the bedstead was close up against the wooden partition, the mutilated remains of a female were lying two thirds over towards the edge of the bedstead, nearest to the door of entry she had only her under linen garment on her,..."
Ok this is what we know. The bed was quite close to the partition (wall). Kelly was probably covered with the sheet while being attacked. And SHE HAD ONLY HER UNDER LINEN GARMENT ON HER.
Hm...
(Of course, we are now pretty much hijacking this thread to discuss the Millers Court crime scene, and leaving the discussion of writing on MJK completely)
I'm pretty sure the bundle is part of the very roughed up bedclothes. The way I see it, Jack probably rolled it up to get better acess. As a matter of fact, had he attacked Kelly before she went to bed, the likelihood is that she would have ended up on top of the bedclothes, and there would be no reason to roll them away at all.
What you say about Barnett probably having used the other side of the bed makes perfect sense, and would indicate Kelly might just as well have gone to bed alone. Habits are habits...
There could have been lots of bedclothes present, there used to be sleepovers...
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 321
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:07 am: |
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Debra,
If I'm right about the rolled up bedclothes, Kelly would have been relatively comfortable.
It is stated that Kelly's clothes were by the fire. It might simply have been their "usual place", but I see no reason why there could not have been a normal fire going.
The reason the clothes (Not MJK's) ended up burned in the fireplace might simply be that Jack threw them there, as a fire was already going, and he either wanted more light, or warmth. Or both.
We do know Abberline stated there was a candle present, and apparently it was not used by the killer to get more light. This could indicate the killer entered the room while dark, simply never spotting the candle at all. Light from the fireplace may initially have been enough for his grisly purposes.
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 322
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
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Just out of curiosity, I would like to know what the nickname the original poster on this thread had in mind.
Were we even close?
Helge
(Message edited by helge on September 23, 2005)
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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Richard,
The band under the knee is almost *too* perfectly straight to have been a cut - it appears to encircle most of the top of the calf, and may well have continued around the other side for all I know. Had it been a cut, the doctors would almost certainly have remarked on it, as they did the "almost circular incisions" that removed the breasts. Furthermore, the band appears slightly raised above the skin and from that point of view I tend to believe it is a garter of some kind.
In fact, hard as it is to tell with an image of this age and graininess, am I alone in seeing potential ruches (or "folds") at right angles to the band? I've tried - not very successfully! - to shot the folds in the following blow-up detail.
 
Is this a "frilly garter" after all?
As to the "letters" on the leg - all I see are random blood stains, some small trickles of blood, fresh or old bruises and a knife wound. Further down the leg I see the imprints of four bloody fingers, apparently of the killer's left hand, that once gripped Mary's calf.
The "letters" on the wall are where Mary's blood first arced horizontally and then started to ooze down the wall by force of gravity and random capillary action. Quickly squirt some washing-up liquid to draw a horizontal line on a flat vertical surface, or - if you have a car - watch the rain flow down the glass between each stroke of the windscreen wipers, and you will see the same sort of effect.
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