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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Catherine Eddowes » Could Eddowes have been police? » Archive through April 26, 2005 « Previous Next »

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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2385
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right Nats
Type in Kate Warne First woman detective with Pinkertons and you'll get it...tantalisingly short but loads of links
Suzi x
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Natalie

Blushes-Just stumbling along here.

Stan
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 339
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stan.
If I am not mistaken there were no females working for the Texas Rangers at that time. In fact, I believe you had to have a relative that had been or was currently serving the Rangers to become one..not positive,but I "think" thats correct.
In the FBI, Hoover was fond of Mormon agents for some reason. Not that way...but for their character.
Anyway.............
Back to Kate.......
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Howard

Yes, I think you're correct regarding the women in the Texas Rangers matter.

Stan
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2000
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 1:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread at all, so I'm not sure that this might have been mentioned before, but somewhere in the newspaper reports it is said that Eddowes once had an intimate relationship with a policeman, he was never named.
Lot of police connection though in her death, arrested by police earlier in day; killed after being released from the police station; copper living right there in Mitre Square; ex-copper is warehouseman at K&T, mates with the patrolling copper 'nice cup of tea this, George... did you hear someone scream then? Got any sugar there me old mate?'
As regards the timing after her release from custody, I have always assumed that she went back to 29 Aldgate High Street and then to Mitre Square.
Despite a massive search I have been unable to dig out any case which involved an 'official' female police informant, but then police were - and still are - unlikely to give out information on their sources as it would obviously damage that source.
As regards cops dressing as women to lure the killer, it is worth remembering that the Victorian word for such cross-dressing was 'personation' rather than impersonation, and using the word I was able to find this charming lady who dressed as a man - sometimes a policeman - and fooled the entire establishment into giving him/her vast sums of money.
Good on him/her I say.
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 1:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks AP

Lots of good information there.

Stan
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2386
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 1:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AP.......Lovely to hear from you......... That scenario with the two old rossers has always been my idea too...Got any bickies George?

The 'trip' from Bishopsgate P/S to Mitre square if you involve a bit of a jaunt back to No 29 (39!) would make a lot of sense AP!

Hmmmmmm
Suzi xx
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1805
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 2:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks AP for the information.Love the story about the lady who capitalised so brilliantly on this "personation"!
And thanks too on summarising Kate"s last 12 hours so succintly.That is how I see it although you tracing her as leaving the police station and making her way back towards the site of her arrest at 8.30pm is compelling.We are told she came to a full stop in front of 29 Aldgate High Street, then a lodging house above a post office or a furniture store-do we know which?
This reference you make to her having an earlier relationship with a policeman seems credible-and I wonder too how many of these women offered sex in an effort to escape arrest.....and how many would have been taken up?.. quite a few if the truth were known!
.....and ofcourse Kate,if she really did think she knew the identity of Jack would have used any previous "intimacy" for all it was worth!You bet she would have!
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 2:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks to all for the input and civil disagreement.

Here's my assessment of the issue as of now.

1. Chance that Eddowes was an undercover policewoman-next to nil.

2. Chance she was acting in some sort of private investigator capacity-near nil.

3. That she was a salaried informer-unlikely.

4. Eddowes was a free-lance informer, that is, she had a closer relationship than usual with police and occasionally gave them knowledge for which she received some kind of gratuity-more likely than unlikely.

5. None of the above-not likely.

I hope that clarifies my position. It never hurts to stir the pot, right?

Goodies,

Stan


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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1806
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 2:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stan,If you want to get to the unadulterated truth of this case I believe you have to be prepared to look full square at what the various interactions /possible interactions between those that comprised the cast may have been.You cant allow decorum to get in the way.

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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 2:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi, I am just ME, Joan! Do not scapegoat me please!
There are some good ideas here, though we could do with some of Chris' research- please Chris!
Personally I think it's unlikely Kate was doing any kind of Police or Detective work that evening. If she had been keen on turning the murderer in " to claim the reward" she wouldn't have gone out drinking the same afternoon.
Didn't everyone know that there was no reward for turning in the murderer? Home Secretary Mr. Mathews forbade offers of a reward, and Monro ( In particular) agreed with that. There was quite some outcry at the refusal to reward informants in the case and Eddowes was not so silly she hadn't perceived it. She knew no reward existed.
She is unlikely to have announced she'd come back early from her hopping expedition to claim a reward for turning the murderer in. She knew there was none.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1808
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To David Cartright,
I have just lost an email you sent-even before I read it-tired now-.Could you repost it David?Sorry about that.
Thanks
Natalie
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Clive Appleby
Sergeant
Username: Clive

Post Number: 27
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Joan,

It's true that there was no "official" reward from the Met Police or the Home Office, but well-publicised rewards were on offer at that time from both the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee and the local MP, Samuel Montagu.

If it is true that Eddowes made this statement, one of these could have been the reward she was referring to.

(Ironically, the City of London Police offered a reward of £500 within a few hours of Eddowes having been murdered).

(See eg Begg "The Facts" Chapter 11 "The Matter of Rewards")

However, Begg (and others I believe), dismiss the alleged statement of Eddowes that she knew the killer, and had come back to claim the reward as either:

(i) She was joking
(ii) It was made up by the Superintendent of the casual ward at Shoe Lane who gave this story to to the East London Observer.
(iii) It was made up by a journalist

Begg's argument for dismissing it is that there doesn't appear to be any corroborative statement from John kelly, and that if Eddowes really claimed to know the identity of JTR she would have shared her suspicions with him.

Clive
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1607
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 3:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chaps,

If Eddowes knew who Jack was then why not tell when she was arrested?

Just an idea.

Monty
:-)
Doc-tor? The Doc-tor??? - Dalek
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe she wanted to go all private detective (not saying she was one - just to clarify).

Something I haven't spotted in all the above posts (and forgive me if this was mentioned) is the idea that a woman could have been used in this case due to the fact that the Ripper was killing women. I can't see that a man acting as bait or whatever would help very much and if the police did use bait then I can't really imagine them being that dense as to use a man.

Just my thoughts. I am no way suggesting that Kate was an informer/bait/undercover police, etc.

Sarah

P.S. I also don't believe her to have been a prostitute (just wanted to say that too).
Smile and the world will wonder what you've been up to
Smile too much and the world will guess
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1809
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 7:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great to see you on the boards Sarah!
Welcome Back!


Some strange inconsistencies in what John Kelly and the lodging house deputy Wilkinson said in court compared to what they are reported to have said to the press.
John apparently knew from just after Kate had been arrested that she was at the police station that night-he and Wilkinson say so at the inquest.
The press reprts that he was a few days before he knew and that he was the first to identify her the following Tuesday-late.
But a question I have is why didnt he go and ask about her whereabouts after the murder was public knowlwdge?
Why too did Wilkinson state that the police came [inquest notes also see page 246 of source book]
an hour after her murder to his lodging house where John was sleeping?
What were they doing there,It couldnt have been "routine"when two big murder events had just happened.
Yet no one picks this up at the inquest----apparently.
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Sarah et al.

It may be delusional but I always preferred to think that perhaps Eddowes wasn't a prostitute; maybe because I have more affection for her than the others.

I think Stride has been unfairly mischaracterized as well.

Yours to a cinder,

Stan

(Message edited by Sreid on April 25, 2005)
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2217
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if she knew (correctly) who JTR was why on earth would she go with him to a dark (ish) corner alone.

that doesnt make sense to me.

did i miss something?
"All you need is positivity"
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jenni,
If Kate was still full of booze, as I suspect she was, since it was only 5 hours before that she was found in a stupour, she would have still been
full of the sort of Dutch courage that makes people over the limit drive lethally,having scant regard for their own or anyone elses safety.So I think it quite possible she didnt reckon on the danger factor as much as if she had been ,say ,stone cold sober!
But still I myself dont see it quite this way but rather that possibly there was a connection
between her killer finding out what she had been gabbing about[unwisely]and someone passing that information on -maybe innocently-in trhe police station she had only just been released from.
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Party

There are at least a couple of other possibilities. She only thought she knew who JTR was but was mistaken. And, much less likely, she was forcibly taken into the square.

Goodies,

Stan
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Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn

Post Number: 1394
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,
Medical examination of Eddowes clearly points to a bruise of recent origin on her left hand [ circular] between her thumb and first finger thus on the fleshy part of her hand.
Because it was of recent origin one can conclude that two obvious explanations come to mind . ie. The police officer that escorted the drunken Eddowes to the station either pulled her up from the pavement by her left hand, or the killer of this unfortunate woman pulled her to her final resting place with enough pressure to cause severe bruising , I would suggest the latter scenerio.
Richard.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2389
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sarah

Great to see you back too!!!!!
Will get back later have to be a domestic Goddess here ..............or failing that cook!

Suzi
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1811
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 2:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thoughtful ideas here-must ponder on them.

Meanwhile is there anyone out there who might know
whether it was common custom for the police to enter common lodging houses at 3am on Saturday night/Sunday mornings. Lodging houses that is, such as the one Kate and John stayed in ,run by Wilkinson.I am really puzzled by the fact that the police are reported to have entered the house at 3am on the night of the double murder.


Is Chris [Scott ]out there-can you help?
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 2:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello chums

If Eddowes truly thought she knew who the Ripper was, one would have to ask why she believed that?
I would have to think she must have had some unpleasant encounter with this individual either as a prostitute or in some other venue. I guess, hearsay would be another explanation.

Stan

(Message edited by Sreid on April 25, 2005)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2003
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Natalie
I don't think the police arriving at common lodging houses at that unearthly hour of the morning was unusual at all. In fact the norm.
There was always a brew on the stove, and from what I've seen in many reports, it was not unusual for the usual violent encounters to take place between returning pimps and whores ready to rip each others heads off through drunkeness, so I reckon half the Met. were bunkered down in common lodging houses drinking tea and just waiting for the trouble to start.
Having said that though, it must be said that there are a lot of cases out there involving individuals like Timothy Donovan who were obviously employed at these common lodging houses as 'bouncers', and very often police cases involve violent attacks by these 'bouncers' on unwelcome guests.
Cases come up all the time of police activity at these common lodging houses at 3, 4 or even 5am.
Makes sense really, this is where all the crooks were, and they were at their most vunerable then.
If you'd like a few cases I'll haul them out for you.
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 7:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Clive,
Thanks for the input. I think the old experts are probably right in the case.
One's mind goes to Commissioner Monro's letters. He comments on the lack of sensible choices made by the Whitechapel murder victims . One of his letters infers their social status (with some tact) and states that they simply wandered out into the night...Complaining about how impossible it had been to protect women from the Whitechapel murderer, he states 'these women do not wish to be protected...'
I always thought this was a particularly apalling statement on his part, ( demonstrating Police neglect) but reading between the lines, it seems he meant that they stubbornly kept to their back street ways and rejected hated Police serveillance even in the most difficult of circumstances.
He'd hardly say that about a murdered informant. 'These women simply do not wish to be protected'.. The Police view seems to have been that the women behaved desparately from casual habit, wandered out late at night to solicit dangerous clients, and became prey.
We shouldn't forget that a back street prostitute behaved very spontaneously whenever she met a client late at night.
We shouldn't forget that a 'back street' still does!
Nor should we forget that man in the alleyway with whom Eddowes was seen conversing that night, just before she was killed. She had her hand pressed gently upon his chest.
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 6:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
I put in a recent post about how the senior Police opinion was that she was indeed a prostitute who refused to take care as to basic personal security. But I wanted to say that's an astute idea Sarah ( re Eddowes being used as bait by Police). It might indeed have been that Police used Eddowes as bait and the operation went terribly wrong, as it can do.
She was released into the night at 1.00 am She was seen dialoguing with a man carefully in the little 'Church Passage.' She then went and walked carefully right across Mitre Square, of all places.
Using Eddowes as bait would have had to have been Swansen's remit, and he shows no sign of it.
We would have to assert that Monro and other seniors chose to publicly cover up the blunder, is that likely?
More likely than not, Jack had studied women's late night habits and he made a point of looking out for the vulnerable and available.
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Natalie.
I don't know what happened to that post. I didn't see it. As an unregistered guest, it's usually a few days before they go up. Anyway, I'll try to repeat as best I can.
You made some good points to me, and maybe I've dismissed a couple of things too lightly. Yes, just WHERE did Eddowes find the money to get falling-down drunk, when she was penniless a few hours before?? Certainly not from family. If she KNEW that she wasn't going to her Sister's, then it DOES seem as though she was trying to ditch Kelly for some reason.

There is also the mystery as to why, after saying to PC Hutt, "I'll get a damn fine hiding when I get home" (and at 1 o'clock in the morning), she then walked off in the opposite direction to home. The reason I struggle to accept the "meeting for blackmail" theory, is because it's hard to imagine that such a little waif like Kate would be insane enough to meet JtR, a man she stood no chance with, in such unfavourable conditions.

For me, the Mitre Square murder was just TOO perfect. There was I think fourteen minutes between PC Watkins' first patrol through the Square to Mitre St, and his return visit. That the killer could meet Kate, inveigle her into the Square, kill her, then severely mutilate her, and make his escape, all in that brief time,is to me, just too convenient and coincidental to be chance or good luck. It's tempting to think that he may have done a bit of prior reconnaissance of the Square, with a planned murder in mind.

But what goes against this idea is, that if the same man killed Stride, he would hardly be likely to have gone hunting in Berner St. so close to the time of another pre-arranged meeting that night. If Kate knew him, and blackmail was the intent, I think that SHE would've had his whole attention. However, if she knew him, and was after the reward, then why did she say nothing in the whole of her time in Bishopsgate St. police station??

On a lighter note, with regard to addressing PC Hutt as "old c--k"(pardon me), I think that was just a piece of local slang. In such a community, I should think that the ladies of the street & the local Bobbies would be very familiar to each other, and probably exchanged much light-hearted banter.

Well, I shall kook silly if my previous post goes up again AFTER this one, or even before it now. If so, just ignore it. It's been great to talk with you again Natalie.
All the best.
DAVID C.
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Poorhoney
Sergeant
Username: Poorhoney

Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello all,

Perhaps when telling her friend that she was "going to go catch the killer", Kate was underscoring her's (and the community's) lack of confidence in the police i.e. "They're not getting the job done, why not one of us?" Just an idea.

Poorhoney
Punxsutawney Phil is a groundhog!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks AP.Glad of that information.No I dont need convincing further at the moment.I can well believe it was so.
I am still puzzled though by John Kelly"s
behaviour.Seems to have been glad to spin a yarn for reporters about thinking Kate was at her daughters all that time whereas in reality he knew all along that she was taken to the cop shop.
Still I suppose he need not have known or have expected her to have been let out at 1am and seen from that perspective then yes he could be forgiven for thinking she was safely tucked up
in her cell!
Ta anyway
Natalie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1815
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David,
yes I follow that.The murder was from start to finish like an athletes feat-swift,deft, quickly thought through and performed by someone young and physically fit .I think he was also able to play the ingenue...therefore allaying the fearhis victims had.
But the Mitre Square killing, as you say and as AP said the other night,was just too neat somehow.
Many Thanks for reposting!
Natalie
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1817
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 6:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joan
I agree.Sarah"s reasoning seems plausible.Mind that really would have been a callous act that night!

Poor Honey
I guess that too could be the case.It might have been more of an expression than anything-like "going to meet his Waterloo" is
Natalie
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 6:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Poorhoney

One of numerous possibilities.
Also-wrong thread here-did you find what you were looking for regarding the Joseph Philippe business?

Stan
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Poorhoney
Sergeant
Username: Poorhoney

Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stan,

I haven't had a chance to check my sources yet, as most of my books are still packed from my recent move, but I will definitely post anything I find on the proper thread as soon as I do.

Poorhoney
Punxsutawney Phil is a groundhog!
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1608
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David

For me, the Mitre Square murder was just TOO perfect. There was I think fourteen minutes between PC Watkins' first patrol through the Square to Mitre St, and his return visit. That the killer could meet Kate, inveigle her into the Square, kill her, then severely mutilate her, and make his escape, all in that brief time,is to me, just too convenient and coincidental to be chance or good luck. It's tempting to think that he may have done a bit of prior reconnaissance of the Square, with a planned murder in mind.

When? when would he have conducted surveillence?

Monty
:-)
Doc-tor? The Doc-tor??? - Dalek
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2236
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm tempted not to think Catherine 'knew' who JTR was in that sense. Maybe she knew JTR, but that is a different thing. I don't know what makes me say that, yes its just a hunch based on nothing.

Also, if Jack was planning to murder someone in the Square at the right time, he had to convince someone (his case Catherine) to go with him to the right place.

I mean isnt that risky? What if no one wanted to go with him, what if they suggested somewhere else and he didnt want to, this might draw attention to him,

but then again, as David says otherwise he got very lucky, very, very lucky.

Jenni
"All you need is positivity"
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Poorhoney
Sergeant
Username: Poorhoney

Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 1:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe the murderer was indeed very very lucky. I don't think that particular location was scouted out or under surveillence by the killer. I do think JtR was in a bit of a frenzy (worked up you might say) after being thwarted earlier that evening (I know, I know...we're all free to believe what we want to believe) and latched onto the first woman he came across. The Square was the first place they came across that served his needs (dark, uninhibited). Luck (both good and bad) plays a huge role in the capture or lack there of of many a criminal. Jack was very very lucky.

Does anyone know what the average length/time of a typical police beat was in 1888?

Poorhoney


Punxsutawney Phil is a groundhog!
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2394
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 2:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Philip
Great to se you back!
Am being horribly serious here on the old art thread!

Hope youre ok

Suzi xxxxx
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Poorhoney
Sergeant
Username: Poorhoney

Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 2:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops, my bad...meant to say the Square was uninHABited.

-Honey
Punxsutawney Phil is a groundhog!
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Paul Boggs
Police Constable
Username: Pboggs

Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 2:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Poorhoney!
I can't remember the source at the moment, but I have read that the local stations in the East End had a target of 15 - 25 mins. for a constable's beat there. PC Watkins was quite adament that he normally covered his beat within 15 - 16 mins.

David: I think there might be a false assumption in your statement "that the killer could meet Kate, inveigle her into the Square....." It is IMO equally plausible that they had joined up, headed for and arrived at the square prior to the 15 min. time frame. The killing and mutilation seem much less incredible if one proceeds from that scenario.
If he was good at logistics and knew the approximate time of PC Watkins' rounds, that would markedly reduce the element of "luck" for him, as well.
PB
PB
PB
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1820
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 3:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David,
I dont find it difficult to understand that
there seems to be no record of her telling the police who she thought the ripper was. After all it hadnt been long before that they had arrested her and locked her up. Anyway seriously-was she actually sober enough to tell them and be listened to?
I have some ideas though about those reports of her imitating a fire engine.
Might she have been doing a sort of Key stone cops skit at the so far unsuccessful attempts
of the police to catch the ripper?A send up of their efforts or those of the vigilante group?It sounds as though she was doing a lot of puffing and blowing interspersed with "ding-a -lings "and
shrill whistles.
just musing
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Stanley D. Reid
Detective Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 6:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greetings people

Too bad the HE-111s cremated the City Police files or a lot of these questions could be answered. There must be someone still alive who saw the files prior to 1940 and could tell what was in there or a deceased person who took down some of the information in personal writings or who conveyed it to a second party. Of course, if this was just one individual, we'd be left with a choice to believe them or not.

The boy from Illinois

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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2005
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 6:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For information on police beats in Whitechapel- their time and length - please see uncle Charles.
Robert Charles Linford posted a complete article some time ago from The Times where uncle Charles explained everything about every single police beat in Whitechapel.
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Poorhoney
Sergeant
Username: Poorhoney

Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP,

Could you supply a little more information on that article regarding police beats? I did a search, and while I found a lot of great articles, I wasn't able to locate the one you referred to (unless I completely overlooked it). Thank you so much.

-Honey
Punxsutawney Phil is a groundhog!
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 6:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Natalie.
You're just great. You can be so knowledgeable and sharp thinking, yet still lighten things up with a sense of humour, which is often needed on these message-boards. There is little excuse for some of the disrespect and bad manners I've found on some threads.

Yes, immitating a fire-engine is not the usual thing you hear from drunks. It does sound as though she was taking the "mickey" out of someone, doesn't it?? Maybe she WAS poking fun at police failure to catch the Ripper. But seriously, would a penniless woman waste a single minute in claiming a handsome reward, if she knew the killer's identity?? It would be a fortune to her.

Perhaps she was two-timing Kelly, and got the money to get drunk on from another casual lover. She appears to have wanted to get away from Kelly for a while in the afternoon, and got the money from somewhere. I agree that the police probably wouldn't have taken much notice of any drunken ramblings in the cells, but later she was talking soberly to PC Hutt. Why didn't she say something then?? It just doesn't make sense to keep quiet if she really knew.

Y'know, I now keep visualising Kate in full flow with her fire-engine impressions. No wonder she drew a large audience.
All the best Natalie.
DAVID C.
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 2:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Monty.
I only said I was "tempted" to think about the surveillance idea, simply because of the perfection of his timing for this murder, so neatly fitted into the fourteen minute gap between PC Watkins patrols through the Square. The alternative is, as Jenni says, that he just got "very, very lucky". However, considering that the police & public were alerted by the previous killings, I wouldn't rule out SOME reconnaissance on the Killer's part, to find suitable areas for his work. The Yorkshire Ripper admitted to doing so.

But again as Jenni says, he couldn't count on his victim being willing to go to any particular spot he'd chosen. The idea of an arranged meeting between Kate and her killer is intriguing, but personally I don't believe it. Nor do I believe that she knew who the Ripper was, but that's just my opinion.

As Natalie knows from other threads, I don't believe that the Ripper was a local man, but a man from the other side of the tracks, with a base for his nocturnal activities nearby. In believing THAT, I simply can't imagine that Eddowes would have known him.

As far as your question goes, as to WHEN he could have conducted surveillance, where was the problem?? If not carrying weapons, or doing anything to merit being arrested, he was quite free to walk in any public place, either in daylight hours or at night. I'm NOT saying he did, just that he could have.
Best wishes Monty.
DAVID C.

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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 3:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Paul.
I take your point. I actually said in another thread some time back, that the easiest way for the killer to conduct surveillance, and time his crime, would be to arrive at Mitre Square already in company with his victim. Then, whilst appearing to be just another couple, and making his victim feel at ease, he could observe Watkins movements, and strike at the right moment.

In saying that JTR was either very, very lucky, or had done prior surveillance, I was reacting to the suggestions on this thread, that Kate knew the killer, and had a pre-arranged meeting time with him. In fact, I don't believe that killer or victim were known to each other before their chance meeting that night, and that YOUR scenario is probably spot-on.
Best wishes Paul.
DAVID C.


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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 6:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Natalie.
Yes, an athlete's feat is a good description, particularly in the case of the Mitre Square murder.
My idea of the Ripper has always been of a young, fit, and physically strong man. I venture to add, that he was also possessed of a good, sharp brain, although it's workings by this time had been translated into clever animal cunning.
As you know, I have very definite beliefs as to the identity of the killer. But the problem is, I can't imagine how Eddowes could have come to know him.

I have to believe that this tale,supposedly told by the Mile-End casual ward Superintendant, is just a piece of unsupported heresay, which was dishonestly reported by the Observer. As has been said, this tale is so like Kelly's parting exchange with Kate, as to have been cribbed from it. Just press sensationalism.

We all like a good mystery, and from a tale like this, it's very easy to conjure up an "Agatha Christie" type plot. Unfortunately, it's far more likely to be as Philip Sugden puts it -----"There is little reason to suppose, that the penniless waif who was always singing, met JTR by anything but a desparately unlucky chance".
Best wishes Natalie.
DAVID C.

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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 4:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi buddies

good musings :-)

I've slept on the idea and rejected it. There's just too much in the case and on the periphery to file Eddowes as a grass.

Anyone feel the same?

Love Joan xx

this piggy seems to be new since last-time so I thought we might celebrate him and welcome him to the gang
...! :-)
I wonder where he fits...
five piggies, yes one went to market, ( Liz) one stayed at home, (that's Hanbury Street Annie) one had roast beef ( that's Eddowes) one had none (that's Polly, presumably) one cried wee wee wee 'all the way home', well that's our MJK, I suppose.
(sorry....)
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Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way looking at old posts I have a feeling this is Robert Clack's secret theory, that Eddowes was a police assistant being used as bait on the night she died , and the job went wrong.
And here we are hanging it out to dry....
Let us have your thoughts Rob. I'm sure you can't wait to bless us for this conversation.
Seriously it would be great to have your opinion if you've researched the matter.

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