| Author |
Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:08 pm: | 
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love your last line Suzi-the net then tightens but in the wrong direction!
some very interesting information here that may well come in useful-thanks!
Nats
xxx |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 825
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Hi Suzi
Terrific point! If Kate was a snout, how come she lay unidentified in the mortuary? Seems like the police would have identified her.
Dave |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2353
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
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Hi Stan
Heeeeeeee Heeeeeeeee poor devil though............! Trying to get into the Chat Room here and failing miserably!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2354
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:13 pm: |
|
David
And thats ANOTHER point! the morturary thing points to MORE than a passing cover up! Or are we all fire engining up the wrong High St here?
Cheers
Suzi |
David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 826
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:18 pm: |
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Well Suzi my friend, I think it suggests they didn't know who she was  |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 577
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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So here's a conspiracy theory for you! Kate found out who Jack was. She was set to expose him. Jack was upper class and powerful and manipulated the authorities to arrest her and release her from a specified police station at a specified time. When she got out he was waiting. |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 37
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
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Think it might have been a little difficult to identify her whatever her status due to the facial
hack job.
Stan |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2361
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 7:15 pm: |
|
I dont know though......... there's more than the odd cover up job gos on to this day!
Also the face job wasn't enough to prevent recognition I think
unlike some......................
Suzi |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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I didn't present this theory when I wrote a magazine article about this case. I only mentioned that she was the one victim who wasn't previously a known prostitute. She was probably only less overt about it or did it infrequently.
Stan |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 353
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 1:27 am: |
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Natalie, when you write:
No Phil,I dont accept that...women activists such as Annie Bessant,Eleanor Marx ,the Bryant and May women strikers of 1888 all busy helping create the first Labour Party.
Those men you talk about probably didnt like to see women taking charge of things but it didnt stop those women doing so.
You miss my point.
As you say, the women you mention SEIZED opportunities for themselves. They are the exception that prove my point. By and large in 1888, men would not have welcomed the participation of women in public affairs.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 7:29 am: |
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Hey Phil,
When was it ever any different?
Suzi,
Yuo hit the nail on the head there-odd cover up jobs seem to be happening here there and everywhere today so why not then?
I dont for a minute think Kate was some kind of under-cover policewoman ...it being besides the point to say they didnt have women in the police force then----for a long time men had to be six foot tall so lots of men were discriminated against because of their height alone---such sizism seems to have been challenged now as I have seen police men and women of various sises
about.
Returning to Kate.She seems to have been intent on getting this reward and may have known the identity of Jack.Her partner John has surprisingly little to say on this which probably means he knew more but was fearful of the consequences of letting on.But the Lodging house superintendant had hear her say it and remembered it well enough to be sworn on it.
When she was again desperately hard up that day
she might have been foolish to go looking to tell her suspicions to someone-hoping for at least a backhander-so lets say she was willing to "inform"
if anybody would listen!
The question then is did she go to find a copper
she knew to tell-someone she could be pretty sure would be around a certain pub at a certain time
say Saturday lunch hour.How would a person such as Kate who had probably had a few run ins with the beat duty police for drunken behaviour before
My guess is that she got herself fired up with alcohol with the remainder of the money from
John"s pawned shoes and flew off to try and claim her reward
The questions are
Who would she have decided to go to tell and who would Kate have trusted?
--- a local police officer
----a plain clothes officer
----someone at the desk in Leman Street police Station ?
Noone came forward from the police to say she had
told them anything-maybe they had forgotten and were up to their ears with people claiming to know his identity
or maybe not
Kate"s movements that day have never been discovered.
Someone ,somewhere must have caught a glimpse
of her before she was arrested,carted off between two policemen,released five hours later,and murdered less than an hour after being released. |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 9:25 am: |
|
Hi Natalie.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this story about Eddowes and rewards at all. As Philip Sugden says, it's just another piece of unsupported heresay. He also points out that this "supposed" statement by the mile-end casual ward superintendent, is so like the parting exchange between Eddowes and John Kelly, as to smell of plain dishonest reporting, and press sensationalism by the "Observer".
If Eddowes had any inkling of the killer's identity, and was after the reward, she had plenty of daylight hours in which to contact any number of policemen. Why didn't she say anything while in Bishopsgate St. police station?? And if she "had" done, then following her murder, the police would surely have said so.
The other idea, about her trying to blackmail the killer, doesn't ring true either. She would have had to be totally devoid of brain-cells, to go alone to a quiet & dark spot, to meet with what she knew to be a maniac killer. For every one of these killings, it seems like people are trying to make up non-existent little mysteries to spice up the case.
The simple uncomplicated likelihood is, that stony-broke after leaving the police station, she got the chance of some quick money with what probably looked like a respectable man, and fell in with the worst possible client.
Best wishes Natalie.
DAVID C. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
|
BRILLIANT Nats!
Just the way I was thinking!Hmmmmmmmm I reckon that she was a snout for someone whether in the police force or not....maybe a journalist! Oh God have to cook now will get back later
Bestest! (sorry Lyn!)
Suzi x
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1793
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
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Hi David,
Thanks for the post.
I understand your reservations.
However there are odd sequences of events with regards to Kate during the last 12 hours of her life.
First there is John Kelly "s statement that Kate told him she was off to try to get some money from her daughter in Bermondsey.If Kate did tell him this that in itself needs probing because her daughter had long left Bermondsey and had deliberately kept her address from her mother
so she wouldnt come around to cadge money.It sounds much more likely that Kate was wanting to be free of John for a few hours and cooked up the
Bermondsey story as an excuse and maybe to avoid further questions and concerns about her safety from John.
This was at 2 oclock and both She and John were totally broke.
Next there is a gap of six and a half hours during which noone sees anything of Kate whatsoever, or so we are told.But lo and behold she turns up by 8.30 dead drunk outside 29 Aldgate High Street.
So my question is where did Kate get this money
to fuel her habit and send her roaring drunk?
Another question: What was she doing addressing Hutt as her old c*ck?Sounds a bit as though she had managed to get on familiar terms with him pretty quick!
Finally she is let out of clink at 1 0"clock and arrives at a lonely square at about 1.25 from what we are told.
This lonely square was covered throughout the hour by the beats of two policemen with another policemen living in it [presumably asleep]
and an ex-policeman working as a night watchman
for K&T with his door ajar throughout the hour
during which time he was clearing up/brushing the floor etc.Seems to be top heavy with police this place....and yet..in less than 15 minutes Kate is butchered without any of them hearing or seeing anything at all.
What a farce ..if it werent so sad!
Natalie
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2367
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Nats
This is EXACTLY how I see it! What ever happnened to Kate during those hours will never probably be known for sure
...Thats the horror of this all
I fancy that there was an assignation with someone who was about to cough with the 'info'! or maybe someone who Kate had to pay up to..............doubt that though cos life was scary enough!
Cant get it out of my head that Kate was meeting SOMEONE tho!(hence the time checking)
Suzi
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
Hi all
WOW! When I started this thread, I didn't expect to get all these details. Then again, I follow thousands of cases not just this one. I've wondered about Eddowes possible connection to the police for about twenty years and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before; at least that's what it looks like from the reaction I got here.
Goodies,
Stan |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2368
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
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Thats a point!!!!!!!!!!
Dear Kate kept asking the time and was let out at 1.00 am with the 'Too late for you to get any drink' line then comes the hiding line from Kate
HmmmmmmmmmmmmmmGood night old C*** is probably the loveliest line in history ,but then our Kate toddles off in the other direction! to be observed by Lawende etc Dom't know why but it seems like a meeting to me!
At the end of the day.... the contents of Kates.....Black Straw Bonnet,read on.... breaks your heart!..........seems to prove that she was quite up together despite her afternoon!
I love the press report of a pair of spectacles(who can do without em!), One (!) mitten and the printed card for one Frank Carter,305 Bethnal Green Road!!!
The other sister Lizzie Fisher!!!!!!!!! of course belongs on another thread!!
Cheers!
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2370
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Time for bed here have lost the power of type! catch ya later!
BEST!
Suzi x |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1794
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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Hi Suzi and Stanley,
The case of Kate sometimes makes me think JtR was some kind of magician with extraordinary powers of persuasion!I have genuinely wondered if he was able to get the women to do exactly wht he wanted even down to Kate being prepared to enter the square and allow him to persuade her to prepare herself for her own murder-not that she realised it ofcourse.But heck-
less than 15 minutes and surrounded by the footsteps of police...
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1795
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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Thoroughly enjoyed your above post Suzi!---2368 WOW!
Sleep well!
Nats
xxx |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
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Dear Party
It is well known that Abberline had connections with the Pinkerton Detective Agency, in fact, he went to work for them in the 1890s. Pinkerton's had employed women detectives since 1856 and had what Allen Pinkerton called his "Women's Detective Bureau". So again, I don't see an aversion to using women when special circumstances arose. The Monarch was a woman after all.
Goodies,
Stan |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 336
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
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Dear Stan The Thread Man...
Wasn't Pinkerton's an American based firm?
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 42
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
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Hi Howard
Yes but they had operations in countries overseas as well.
Stan |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2371
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 11:25 am: |
|
Well have found this. try www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters2/pinkerton and see what happens! failing that and you all know me and technology type in Pinkertons Detective Agency on Google! May be quicker!!! Some good stuff there tho
Cheers
Suzi x
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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Just tried that and surprisingly it seems to work!!!!!!!! Some good info here on Pinkerton ...runs to some pages hope this helps
Suzi
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
|
Thanks Suzie
Will check that out when time permits. It would be interesting to go through Pinkerton's global files for 1888 if any are extant. I know they were eventually involved in the Ripper case but I'm not sure when they were first concerned.
Regards,
Stan |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1796
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
Stanley,
I doubt it was in any way official if it happened at all.
But Kate may have known or have become "familiar" with certain cops through various of her forays! |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
|
Hi,
Eddowes was in no way a police informer or 'Cop' however i suspect that when she left the station that morning she was infact followed not by design but by a observing police officer mayby plain clothes who I suspect was the man that approached the night watchman in Orange square asking'Have you seen a man and woman pass this way'.
The very fact that reporters to this murder were given a wide berth suggests to me that the man who approached Bleinkensop[ night watchman]could infact have been the man following Eddowes and possible killer en route to the murder vacinity , the very fact that Eddowes turn left outside the police station could have been she was attracted to a mans attentíon.
As the couple were seen at the entrance to church passage by Lawende and associates the couple could infact be standing at at a blind spot to a possible follower, thus the said person approaching the nightwatchman for a possible sighting.
The person responsible for mislaying the couple , which resulted in a ghastly murder could have prayed on the possible police officers mind, which resulted in a breakdown, which commenced to the identification at the seaside home some time later.
All speculation , but a educated thought..
Regards Richard.
/
/
|
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 338
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 4:58 pm: |
|
Stan..
The reason I mentioned the origin of the Pinkertons',which I knew...was to state that since it was an American-based organization,they may have had a different perspective as to having female operatives,compared to English or Continental Europeans.
How |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie
Unofficial is probably the most likely. The fact that she was planning to give up the killer for a reward shows that, if she wasn't already an informant, she was intent on becoming one.
Goodies,
Stan |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:14 pm: |
|
Hi All!
I think(for what it's worth) that Kate
a)Certainly wasn't a policewoman!
b)Wasn't an 'informant'
c) Could have been some sort of occaional snout i.e. a bit of 'knowledge' in exchange for a couple of bob
d)Just a rather lovely girl who we all take too who had been off 'opping and feeling a tad poor and weary went through that awful business of pawning John's boots etc and all the rest of that terribly sad story
Suzi
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1798
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
|
I was thinking along similar lines last night Richard.I reread a passage about the night watchman reporting a well dressed man inquiring about whether he had seen a man and a woman entering St James Passage at about 1.30 and wondered if it was someone following them who had briefly lost sight of them.It makes sense to think this could have been someone on the look out for the ripper or who had been tipped off to follow a chap suspected of being the ripper and that such a person was a plain clothes policeman.
A good point Howard ! |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2375
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:35 pm: |
|
Whatever we're after here.. I can't come to terms with Kate as a prostitute ..OK maybe the odd 'trick' may have made up the money but I cannot see Kate as a shall we say ' a regular'.
Our cheerful singing girl was talking amicably to a man at 1.35 (seen by Lawende and co) to someone to whom she felt 'comfortable' with so the pressure to 'Get Home' must have passed off!
When P.C. Harvey came down the same passage 5 mins later he saw no one... 5 minutes! well if we take their time keeping to be accurate! is a short time!(The time keeping in this whole case of course is a problem.......we only have times we are given!)
Now reading back P.C. Watkins came into the Square (by his own estimation!)at 1.45,then there was all that business with summoning the watchman from K and T ........I just can't get it out of my head that as a copper and an ex copper they were having a cup of tea and a chat or whatever a
and didn't see(!) a thing!Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2376
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
|
Whatever we're after her I can't come to terms with Kate as a prostitute ..OK maybe the odd 'trick' may have made up the money but I cannot see Kate as a shall we say ' a regular'.
Our cheerful singing girl was talking amicably to a man at 1.35 (seen by Lawende and co) to someone who she felt 'comfortable' with so the pressure to 'Get Home' must have passed off!
When P.C. Harvey came down the same passage 5 mins later he saw no one... 5 minutes! well if we take their time keeping to be accurate! is a short time!(The time keeping in this whole case of course is a problem.......we only have times we are given!)
Now reading back P.C. Watkins came into the Squareby his own estimation) at 1.45,then there was all that business with summoning the watchman from K and T ........I just can't get it out of my head that as a copper and an ex copper they were having a cup of tea and a chat or whatever a
and didn't see(!) a thing!Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
OOOps TWICE!! sorry!
Just been thinking though about Kate leaving Bishopsgate Police Station at 1.00 am when all those great lines were spoken and then.......................there's 35 mins approx till the Lawende!
Bishopsgate Police Station isn't more than 10 mins from Mitre Sq no matter how tired you are!
Hmmmmmmm
Back to times again!
Suzi |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Howard
I understood; I live about 100 miles from Pinkerton's HQ. Regarding the Continent, I saw somewhere that the French had women working in police capacities even in the early 1800s. I believe with Vidocq.
Stan |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1800
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
|
Totally with you on this one Suzi....... they didnt hear a thing?
------sounds a bit like the three wise monkeys--
see no evil,hear no evil,speak no evil! |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Stan
As to that I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me!.. Will have to look into that!..
But we all know that delightful thing about some of the City and Met police dressing as women to 'apprehend' chummy..... a delightful if somewhat distressing idea!
 
Suzi x |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2380
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 6:20 pm: |
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As to womwen in Pinkertons.. have just found this hope this works too!
www.sameshield.com/womensecurity/history.html-5k
Will see if it works!
Suzi
|
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
|
Hmmmmm doesnt seem to!! Hey ho back to work!
Suzi |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
|
Suzi
The Texarkana Police and maybe even the Texas Rangers used policemen dressed as women to try to corral their Phantom Killer in 1946; unsuccessfully as well. Now that's really scary!
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
|
I see that the first female Pinkerton Detective was Kate Warne who began her service in 1856.
Goodies |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2382
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 6:25 am: |
|
Stan
That's a great... if somewhat disturbing image there!..Must look into Kate Warne she sounds worth a read!
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1801
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 9:13 am: |
|
Did Kate Warne make her mark?Are there any records
about her work as a female detective do you know Stan? |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2383
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
|
Nats
Am going to do some 'research ' later..... we'll see eh ...off to Google I think!
Suzi |
Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
|
Hello Suzi and Natalie
Regarding Kate Warne (sometimes spelled Warn); the site I saw only mentioned that she served until about 1868 and was involved in the protection of President Lincoln during the Civil War. This, in a fashion, made her also the first female U.S. Secret Service agent since that organization was a direct off-shoot of Pinkerton's as was the FBI. If you wish, I'm sure if you Googled her name much more could be learned. Pinkerton's had other female dectecties in that era as well.
Stan
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1802
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 9:44 am: |
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Great Suzi.
Look forward to anything you can dig up!
Nats |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 9:48 am: |
|
You deserve a medal Stan for digging up this!
Its brilliant!
Nats |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2384
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:08 am: |
|
Right Nats
Type in Kate Warne First woman detective with Pinkertons and you'll get it...tantalisingly short but loads of links
Suzi x |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 11:07 am: |
|
Hi Natalie.
Yes, you've got some good points there. Maybe I've been too quick in dismissing a couple of mysteries that "DO" need an answer. Just where "DID" she get the money to get falling-down drunk, after being penniless a few hours earlier?? As you point out, it was definitely not from relatives, and if she knew she wouldn't be seeing her daughter, then it "DOES" sound as though she was trying to ditch Kelly for some reason.
Then there is the mystery as to why, after saying to PC Hutt, "I'll get a damn fine hiding when I get home", (and at 1 o'clock in the morning), she apparently walked off in the opposite direction to home.
I think the reason I've always doubted the "meeting for blackmail" idea, is because I couldn't believe that such a tiny waif as Kate would be insane enough to meet JtR, a man she stood no chance with, in such unfavourable conditions.
The timing of the police patrols through Mitre Square, which you pointed out, is I believe very significant. There were I think fourteen minutes between PC Watkins first patrol through to Mitre St., and his return visit. That the killer could meet Kate, inveigle her into the Square, kill her, severely mutilate her,and make his escape, all in that fourteen minutes, seems to me just too convenient & coincidental to be mere chance or good luck.
It's tempting to say, that maybe he'd done some reconnaissance work on the Square for a pre-planned murder. But what goes against "THAT" is, if such was the case, and the same man also killed Stride, it's hardly likely that he'd be hunting in Berner St., so close to the time of a pre-arranged meeting elsewhere.
On a lighter note, the "old c--k" (pardon me), was probably just a bit of local slang. In such a community, I think it's likely that the ladies of the street and the local Bobbies were very familiar with each other, and probably exchanged plenty of light-hearted banter. When I was a boy, our local Bobby was so familiar with all the villagers, that on cold nights on the beat, he'd knock on any door and enquire if a hot cup of tea was available. He was addressed by a few "unofficial" names too.
It's great to be talking with you again Natalie.
All the best.
DAVID C.
|
