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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Catherine Eddowes » Could Eddowes have been police? » Archive through April 21, 2005 « Previous Next »

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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello all

Was Eddowes a police informant or even working undercover for the City of London Police? She'd reportedly told a friend that she was 'going to go out and catch the killer'.

Her "arrest" just before her murder always looked a little suspicious to me. Was it all a made up story to cover up a terrible miscalculation?

Regards,

Stan
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 820
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stanley (and welcome btw),

I would disagree because she'd been out of the city hopping for several weeks, which would make her out of touch with what had been happening in London. Doesn't make for a good informant, imo. There's confirmation that she had been doing outdoor work because she had a tan (and one of the papers remarked that John Kelly had a tan as well). And before she was ever identified, she was pegged as a Kent hop-picker because of her darkened skin.

As for her arrest for drunkeness being a cover story, she was seen being taken to Bishopsgate station by a couple of women who informed John Kelly of the fact.

I also think the police would have found unfortunates undependable. Just an opinion.

Cheers,
Dave
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David

Thanks. Yes, I knew she'd been hop picking and that would make it quite unlikely that she was a policewoman. That, however, doesen't rule her out as a sometime informant, paid or otherwise.

I'm not really trying to make a case that she was working for the police in some capacity, just presenting an interesting (at least to me) possibility. Since the City of London Files have been destroyed, there probably won't ever be any way to prove it one way or the other. I agree with you that it's not likely.

Best wishes,

Stan
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 821
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stan,

If only we could tag along and then intervene at that crucial moment, eh?

Cheers,
Dave
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 330
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dave and Stan:

It would have been a shame if she was an informant and didn't mention it to Hutt. She may have had an escort home instead of wandering to her death..




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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dave

Yes, indeed.

I also understand that, while all the other victims were proven prostitutes, Eddowes was only presumed to be one.

Regards,

Stan
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 822
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Howard,

Yeah buddy, it's bad Hutt didn't, but I'm guessing she wouldn't have wanted an escort anyway. Besides, at one in the morning, Hutt couldn't have known about Stride because that was about the same time Diemschutz rolled on into Berner street. Three weeks or so after Annie Chapman, nobody had any reason to expect the Ripper would be active that particular night. It's like the Python sketch: "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Hi Stan,

I agree the evidence that Eddowes was a prostitute is circumstantial. But why should she occupy the corner of Mitre Square with a man? If she was just passing through, as has been suggested, she should have passed through the square at around 1:10 (it's an 8 minute walk according to Hutt). But she doesn't turn up until after 1:30. Some icing is that she's also being extra careful to be very, very quiet as no one hears a sound--yet she's wearing big old man boots, on cobblestone. No one hears--she must have been taking pains.

I love talking Eddowes :-)

Cheers,
Dave

Somewhere on this site is a great picture showing just how close the prostitute's church, St. Botolph's, is to Mitre Square. I think it's one of Robert House's?

(Message edited by oberlin on April 20, 2005)

(Message edited by oberlin on April 20, 2005)
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 25
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Dave and Howard

Eddowes is my favorite victim and, from what I can tell, perhaps the most attractive.

Regards,

Stan
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 823
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stan,

Yes, she's mine too. The part with Hutt is what gets me; they almost come across like a couple of co-workers. I like after the little lecture he gives her, how he asks to shut the door and she obliges--almost.

Dave
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Dave

And she replies, "Good night old c''k", if I recall correctly. (The post wouldn't let me use the real word.) Sounds like there was some affection of some sort.

Stan
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 331
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gents...

Eddowes is likewise the victim I am the most curious about.
Dave...I know about the concept that she may not have been a full time prostitute. However,it is perhaps telling that after leaving Hutt at the station,she winds up ready to rock and roll with a guy in Mitre Square...
Not to be indelicate,but the way I see it is that its like saying you are "half-pregnant". You can't. I believe prostitution was her means to an end when all else was unavailable and unfortunately her main way to an end cost her her life.

Dave..I was hip to Hutt not knowing about Stride. What I should have mentioned was Eddowes stating it to Hutt. She may have been grass for the higher ups, like the dicks, not P.C.'s.. Sorry about that...

(Message edited by howard on April 20, 2005)
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Howard

Good point. If she's grass, it's likely very unofficial.

Stan
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Carolyn
Sergeant
Username: Carolyn

Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 3:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello,

As I have stated in another post re. the Goulston Street Writing, the "nothing" could have referred directly to Eddowes. She had given her name as "nothing" that night at the station.

Would that mean a police connection? That is IF the writing was written by JTR, which I realize not everyone agrees that it was written by Jack.

If she did have an idea who JTR was, how could she have taken up with him knowing who he was? Was she used as bait, and it went wrong?

Questions, always more questions!!!

Carolyn
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1782
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 3:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi David,Howard,Stanley,
Noticed this with interest.
It has long been the practice of News Agencies and National Newspapers ,covering major trouble spots making national and international news, to rely on local freelancers[usually ex reporters from a local rag]to provide them with any gossip or information resulting from their "eavesdropping" especially "eavesdropping" done in local pubs.
Sometimes these were just local folk,glad of a few extra quid,who the journalist had been pointed towards in the course of background investigations into the case.Such people would have had to frequent certain pubs where the known "troublemakers" hung out.
I think its possible that the police in the 1880"s/90"s Whitechapel might have had similar
"help" from local people-especially those who hung around in certain pubs-and after all there would have been few ordinary "respectable" women
who hung about in pubs with various men in Victorian England.
But Catherine Eddowes seems to have been known to police beforehand.True she had been
Hop picking,a good point picked out by David.
But maybe her "help" wasnt all that regular anyway.Such arrangements with journalists depended on the informant having something of positive interest to report.
You mention Hutt-he may have known nothing about such extra curricular activities!But someone else might have in the cop house that night!
Incidently I know it belongs on another thread but does anyone know if Mary Kelly
had an Irish accent?
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1783
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Carolyn,
just noticed your post.Funny I thought of that too ....its possible
Natalie
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2345
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all
Have just stumbled across this too and it has I admit set me thinking too.......The 'nothing' connection is tantalising,but all would seem a bit too neat I think(!)
Nats-As to accent ,I would imagine she would have had some sort of accent,a lilt maybe but can't think how we could possibly find out for sure

Suzi
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2134
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wasn't she from Wovlerhamptom? Wouldn't she had a brummie accent of sorts therefore?

My apologies if this is wrong!
"All you need is positivity"
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Jeff Leahy
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffl

Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pleased to join the Eddows fan club

For me she is the most interesting. Although Eddows had just returned from hop picking I've been lead to beleive crops were poor that year and they returned early to London with holes in shoes and little to show for it. (Wasnt hop picking there equivillant of a holiday?) i dont think it paid well anyway.

Kate had little money that day. She is supposed to have left to borrow more money from her daughter...but never turned up, so where did she get enough money to get rawingly drunk?

I dont think she was an informant however and perhaps not a professional prostitute, she just did what she had to do to survive. Perhaps she had done a few tricks that day. Perhaps the pawn shop.

But then again perhaps she had arranged to meet someone that night.

Where she'd been all day, now thats a mystery?

Jeff
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1603
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 7:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guys,

Someone mention Eddowes??

Depends what is meant by informant.

A Police plant? I doubt it hugely.

A part time snout? Possibly. It wouldnt surprise me if she did give out little snippets of informantion.

The dealings Ive had with some indicates this. 'Why you hassling me?, you should talk to such and such shes been doing this and that"

Eddowes doesnt fascinate me half as much as her murder does. The window of opportunity, the activity, the pursuit etc. Interesting.

Monty
:-)
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2142
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 9:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Eddowes last day is a puzzler really isn't it?

Jenni
"All you need is positivity"
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 9:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Natalie, Jeff et al.

Another question about Eddowes to those who don't believe that Kelly was a Ripper victim: That makes Eddowes the final slaying, so why did JTR stop killing after murdering her? Was she the ultimate target?

At any rate, she's immortal now and Jack is an unknown so in the long run she actually sort-of won out in the end.

Best regards,

Stan
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Kane Friday
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Stanley,

I think you scenario is most unlikely particularly if you consider incidents like Eddowes'impersonation of a fire engine!

Kane
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1786
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Its good to get some feedback here-and thanks Monty for clarifying that point.
I think you make an interesting point right at the start of this thread Stanley.To have managed to get herself so drunk on "nothing" is a complete mystery.To have then got herself arrested
and murdered within some 5 hours of giving the Fire engine performance in Aldgate High Street is also really strange.Also she was murdered within an hour of leaving the police station-even though she seems to have taken half an hour to get to Mitre Square when it should only have taken her a few minutes.Does anyone know if anyone else left the police station between 1am and 1.30am?
The money for her drinking is a mystery.I wonder whether she intended all along -like she said to the lodging house geezer- doing a bit of Ripperology rather than go flogging the dead horse of trying to cadge money off her girl?If so then she badly miscalculated.Maybe she grassed on JtR and someone passed her words?
Who I wonder gave her that money to get dead drunk?
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello Natalie and Kane

Thanks for the input.

I don't think the fire engine impression necessarily rules her out as an unofficial informant or even other possibilities.

By the way, I know that fire engines were horse drawn at that time so exactly what did a fire engine sound like in 1888?

Best wishes,

Stan
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David O'Flaherty
Chief Inspector
Username: Oberlin

Post Number: 824
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stan,

Somewhere I started a thread called "Steamers" and linked to a brief clip of a period steamer moving along with a clanging bell.

I used to think that the impersonation might tell us something about Kate's movements and thought I nearly had something worked out. Then I realized that it's probably some elaboration that never happened since the first time it's mentioned seems to have been the 1960s (unless someone's found a period reference for it). I hate that, because I love the story.

Cheers,
Dave

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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guys,

Also I think its important to point out that the police used male decoys and not female.

That speaks volumes for their mentality at the time.

Monty
:-)

PS Stanley......ding-a-ling-a-ling. Personally, of a Friday evening/Saturday morning I prefer nee-naw-nee-naw-nee-naw.
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2150
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hi,
quick question,
would that be because there weren't any female police officers at all? i am asking when women first were allowed to join the police,

Jenni

ps or maybe i have been studying too many feminist courses!
"All you need is positivity"
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fellows

I wonder if the male decoys might not have been convincing enough.

Thanks Dave; I wondered if the steam engine sounded much like a locomotive. I think the boiler was probably just venting when the vehicle thas in transit.

Interesting point on the origins of the story. I didn't know it was in doubt.

Regards,

Stan
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jenn,

During the 1st Great war.

Check this

http://www.met.police.uk/history/women_police.htm

Monty
;)
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jennifer

I haven't heard of any female police but I don't think they would be averse to bringing them in to act as special agents for a specific case.

Stan
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2151
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Monty,
thank you and thanks for the link

Jenni

ps not been studying too many feminst courses after all!
"All you need is positivity"
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1606
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Stan,

Considering women had no vote in 1888 and were considered (incorrectly Monty adds) inferior and weak I think using women was a big no no for the Police.

Monty
:-)

(Message edited by monty on April 21, 2005)
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg

Post Number: 2152
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stan, Monty,

I think we are pretty safe to assume the police would not be using women. maybe Catherine took it upon herself she knew who Jack was, that might be the case who knows. She was after all drunk, was she not?

Yes the Victorians attitude to women was slightly odd, wasn't it?

Jenni


"All you need is positivity"
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 1:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Party

Interesting to think they'd bring dogs in to work on the case but not women.

Best regards,

Stan
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1991
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 1:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is a great deal of information on the fire fighting vehicles of that period in The Times, and I'll see if I can't haul some of it out.
And just to point out that Catherine's daughter actually moved to avoid her mother and never passed on the new address.
There might also be something about female police informants and their use.
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana

Post Number: 575
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 1:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The gap in time between Kate's release and the finding of her body can be explained in terms of the goings on at St. Botolphs. St. B's was known as the prostitutes' church. Apparently it was common practice for the ladies to parade in a circle around the church continuously. Customers would choose one of them and they would go off together. St. Botolphs is very close to Mitre Square. So Kate gets out at about 1:00, heads for St. B's and starts circling with the others. After a few minutes Jack arrives from Berner St. and watches the parade for awhile before choosing Kate. The rest is history. I don't think they had a prearranged appointment. If Kate had truly known who Jack was, she would have to have been crazy or had a strong death wish to go with him.
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil

Post Number: 349
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 2:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just speculation - but hasn't it been suggested on here that Eddowes may have known that Cutbush or some other policemen might have been (or been involved with) "Jack"? That when arrested, this became known to those suspected - inside information - who knew when she would be released, trailed her and killed her.

I'm not sure its a theory i go along with, but I thought I would throw it into the discussion. others may know more or want to take this further.

Phil
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1992
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 2:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In 1880 the Metropolitan Brigade employed both manual and steam fire engines, but in that year 'Merryweathers' introduced a more compact steam fire engine with a 7" cylinder, 3 and a half inch pump and a 7" stroke which delivered 200 to 300 gallons of water per minute. The brigade in 1887 had increased the number of steam fire engines from four to 45 because of this splendid little machine, but they still employed 114 manual fire engines at that time.
Apparently a steam fire engine with a cylinder and stroke less than 7" was totally unacceptable, a sentiment I'm sure the unfortunates of the time shared.
I have been unable to find a decription of the noise associated with such machinery, but I guess it would have been loud.
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello

Thanks for the info AP. The only steam engine I've operated was a miniature tabletop model.

Regarding the reluctance of police to use women in the investigation, I can't imagine that they wouldn't have used everything at their disposal to solve this case.

Have a goodie,

Stan
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil

Post Number: 352
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can't imagine that they wouldn't have used everything at their disposal to solve this case.

But Stanley, they were MEN of their time, and at least the top brass of the met would have been literally horrified at the thought of employing women in any capacity. It was against the mores of the time.

We should be careful of assuming that society in 1888 was like society today. It was, in many ways, another planet. One needs to try to understand the thought patterns of the time, rather than of today.

Phil

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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1787
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It was in the 1880"s/90s WB Yeats Irelands great poet fell madly in love with Maud Gonne. This rich young woman was not exactly an "informer", but more a leading political activist for the Republican cause.There were numbers of such women engaged in clandestine activities as well as openly political activities.
True you can hardly compare Catherine who was living well below the poverty level with someone like her but at least when you read about what Maud Gonne got up to you can see the way women often did play a significant part in clandestine activities of many different kinds.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1788
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No Phil,I dont accept that.These were momentous days for everybody with or without the ripper.
Hanbury Street itself was a hotbed of radical socialism with its big meeting hall[still there]
its women activists such as Annie Bessant,Eleanor Marx ,the Bryant and May women strikers of 1888 all busy helping create the first Labour Party.
Those men you talk about probably didnt like to see women taking charge of things but it didnt stop those women doing so.
Natalie
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 4:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There must at least have been some women employed as matrons in women's prisons. No?
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2348
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gosh AP must start working on that impression!

In 1888 there were a deal of women who wanted- and did make themselves heard...aka Annie Besant during the Matchgirls Strike of that year.
As Nats says there were many women (including of course Maud Gonne) who werent backward in coming forward on matters political.

Of course there are always the Madame Blavatski's of the time but they of course of left their mark!
As to Kate being a serious informant,this seems a tad unlikely but as an occasional 'snout' is a strong possibility I reckon, especially after all those comments re knowing and getting the reward for the Ripper and you never know may explain that 'Fire Engine' unpleasantness (albeit just the reason WHY and HOW she got herself in such a state to feel that this was what she ought to be up to in Aldgate High St remains at the centre of the mystery of Kate!)

Diana- Can't imagine that Kate would have headed for St B's ,feeling grim and worried about her reception when she returned home..my view here is that when she left she was a) going home(!) in a rather confused way or b) making an asignation with someone as yet unknown...maybe Mr Hand On The Chest....

Best

Suzi
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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know she feared a "hiding" when she got home. Maybe she was drinking to enhance her courage for either purpose.

Stan
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 1790
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Suzi,a propos Madame Blavatsky-wasnt she up to her neck in all that Black magic stuff?D"Onston might even be in here somewhere after all-along with Yeats and co.Her salon was in Holland Park not far from Chiswick so maybe Druitt had been attending with his Hammersmith friends and had
been triggered into depressive illness with all
the bizarre readings.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2350
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Stan

No I dont see Kate doing that!...She was supposed to be back around 4.30 after her alleged 'visit' to her daughter and she was doing her impressions at 8.30 pm when City Police Constable Louis Robinson came across her at the height of her 'disturbance',at which point she lay down to sleep on the pavement .Presumably she was helped to Bishopsgate Police Station and left then to 'cool off' until the rather lovely image of singing softly to herself at 12.15.The conversation with Hutt is so touching and as people have said, smacks of a certain familiarity.

One point on this does interest me tho.... at this point she gives her name(Or it is written in the records as!!!!!!) Mary Ann Kelly of 6 Fashion Street NOW ......IF ....Kate (as Catharine Eddowes) was a known snout why did this name go into the 'records'? Either she was known to the police by that name and maybe the only reason they asked her was to 'test' her sobriety..OR..........

At 1.35 shes seen with Mr Hand on Chest by Lawende and Co.
At 1.40 P.C Harvey sees nothing..
At 1.45 PC Watkins' measured tread comes round the corner....
The rest as they say is history
A lot of mysteries here.....and then there's Mary but that's another story.....and thread!!!
Best
Suzi


At 1.45 enter with measured tread PC Watkins
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2351
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooooooooops Dont know why that bit went in at the bottom there but ...........
Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 2352
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nats
Madame B was the founder of The Theosophist Movement, closely allied of course to The Golden Dawn,Ros D'O, Crowley, Yeats etc.Have read quite a lot on Madame B and although there is a lot of stuff that bears a second look, there are some wonderful stories of something that could pass for that of a charlatan! (The disappearing teacups etc!!)

Quite a character though I feel like a lot of em at the time MacGregor Mathers,Bulwer Lytton et.al.

R D'O was of course living in Southsea(just down the road!) with Mabel Collins,the editor of 'Lucifer', the journal of the Theosophist Soc!
The net tightens here I think but maybe in the wrong direction!!

Suzi

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Stanley D. Reid
Sergeant
Username: Sreid

Post Number: 36
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Suzi

After I sent that, I thought, I don't believe she ever needed a reason to drink. HeeHee

Stan

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