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Stuart
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 9:11 pm: | 
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On the witness discriptions, one witness said something very odd to Stride. " you would say anything but your prayers". This is a very trivial, poignant, comment to say to someone - especially a prostitute.I would rate it as analogous to the famous grafitti " the juwes are the men who will be blamed for nothing".Not your standard grafitti message. This is why I think the person in question had something to do with Stide's murder.
Question? In 1888, was it regular, for sleezy clients, to politely comment in an educated manner " you would say anything but your prayes". I can only envisage some working class slob saying " how much and where, and which orifice can I work?", with as little fuss as possible.Given this, would you at least concede that the comment in question was an irregularity.Also, this irregularity just happen to be said moments before Stide's murder.Very suspicious I would think.
What could this mean? I can only see one context here, unlike the grafitti message. That is: The person was inferring that prostitutes do not say their prayers. Thus he insinuated that they were heathens,or wicked ,or ungodly to some degree. This ties in very well with a possible motive. That the murderer was punishing random whores for their heathen like behaviour, and making a stern example to the public by the series of killings and mutilations.
Having said that, he does not have to have been a clergyman, but anyone with extreme fundamental religious views.A definate extremist. Anyway, can anyone out there in ripper land see any other reason for the words?
Thanking you - Stuart
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Carolyn
Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 12:37 am: |
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Stuart,
It was William Marshal who overheard the remark said to Stride. He did not say it to Stride.
I do not think that the person that said this to Stride, could have been her killer. It seems to me that under the circumstances it was a private joke between them, or said in the context of; "You devil, you would say anything but your prayers". They were also observed kissing. I don't think a client would have been seen in public kissing a prostitute. It seems to me that they were probably on a date. They were seen together just as the meeting at the IWEC was letting out, approximately 11:45p.m. And I have doubts that her date was her killer. She may have met her date at the club. (not "picked up"), but had arranged a meeting there.
I do remember reading somewhere on the boards, that Jack might have met his victims during the day, given them gifts, and arranged to meet them later that same night. If that idea has any weight to it, maybe she did meet Jack at the club! It would sure change the whole scenario. Not sure if I subscribe to this idea, but is interesting none the less.
Just some random thoughts,
Carolyn |
Timsta
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
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Something I dug up last year:
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Stuart
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 2:41 am: |
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Thanks Carolyn,
I do think that if the killer said those words, he would certainly have said it in a lighthearted manner, as if he were joking. I would say if he were rude or stern with his words, Stride would have told him to get lost.Thus he may have actually meant what he was saying, but said it under the guise of a joke.
As I also stated, I dont think your typical working class 'Joe' would say this - certainly not in a gentlemanly manner.It is interesting you say that it was someone she felt comfortable with that she may have met earlier and wanted to kiss.I have read on many threads that the victims did feel comfortable with thier clients who murdered them.He did do some courting before hand, with gifts ect to make them feel at ease and drop thier gaurd just a little, enough to make his initial blade strike across the neck.
If this man was dating her and kissing her, I have one question. What happened to him after her death on Sep 30th. Was he questioned by the police, and did they have a sketch of his appearance. It seems strange, that given the wieght of the double event in the press, this man did not come forward to assist the police. Any normal man would have - what happened to him?
Thanks , Stuart |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
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Hi Stuart.
I had not noticed this new thread, so I sent you a message on the "Stride was not a Ripper victim" thread. I'll repeat here.
I'm afraid that "YOU WOULD SAY ANYTHING BUT YOUR PRAYERS" is an age-old everyday saying. It was used by my parents & grandparents, and by those of my friends. It was said to me many times when I was young, whenever I was trying to alibi my wrongdoings by making up stories. It was another way of saying, "You would say anything except the truth". I've also heard it said by adults to adults in the same context.
The people I refer to, were certainly not of a deeply religious leaning, and the sentence has no religious connections. It's just another old saying. I'm afraid that anyone trying to establish a sinister religious connection to the man who spoke these words in Berner St. that night, is going down the wrong path.
Best wishes Stuart.
DAVID C.
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Carolyn
Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:13 am: |
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Stuart,
I really don't know what happened to him.
It is interesting that the description that William Marshal gave of the man he had seen was similar in appearance to those seen by PC Smith and Israel Schwatz. All three witnesses could have seen the same man.
Also, Marshal was taken to the mortuary and identified the deceased as the woman he had seen.
There is a detail of this description under "Witnesses", here on the casebook. And you can read his testimony under the "Inquest of Liz Stride.
Hope this helps,
Carolyn |
Carolyn
Sergeant
Username: Carolyn
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
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Stuart,
Sorry, me again!
The man that all three of the men described never did come forward with any info, as far as I know. Maybe he just didn't want to get involved(sound familiar, to what happens today?) Or since he was the man they all saw, could he have been JTR? Then of course, he would have good reason not to have come forward!
It has been stated elsewhere on the boards, that if this man was JTR, he was acting out of character by his public display. JTR would not have allowed this attention.
Maybe JTR didn't kill Stride so it could explain his behavior...But that is for another thread.
Carolyn |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 576
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Hi Stuart (Hi Carolyn),
As is suggested in Philip Sugden's book "The Complete History of JtR" the time of the sighting (over 1 hour before Stride was found dead) may have been the main reason why the police doesn't seem to have tried to track down Marshall's man.
Swanson's report refers to her as a prostitute. Perhaps the police didn't believe she was still with the same man when she was seen by PC Smith or Schwartz and so they may have thought Marshall's man wasn't of great importance to the case.
I don't know if the Ripper's victims actually felt comfortable with him, I think it was rather a question of not feeling threatened by him. I doubt if the Ripper did some courting beforehand - he probably didn't need to anyway as the women just didn't really have a choice and would have gone with him as long as he didn't act too strangely and could show her some money. The idea about the gifts etc. isn't an established fact, it's merely speculation.
"You would say anything but your prayers" followed by Stride's laughter strengthens my belief that the man was someone Stride actually did feel comfortable with and that he was, at the very least, not some 'business as usual' punter - if that's what he was.
But, as always, these are just my thoughts.
All the best,
Frank
"Coincidence is logical"
Johan Cruijff
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