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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Martha Tabram » Leary and Law « Previous Next »

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ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After looking over the happenings on the night of Tabram's murder it seems most likely that whoever killed her was a soldier.

And as we know PC Barnett saw a soldeir loitering around and when he was asked to ID him later on he picked out Private John Leary.

Of course the problem with this is that Leary has an alibi which is corrobrated by his friend Private Law.

But if we ignore their testimony for a moment and slip them into the equation with Martha Tabram and Pearly Poll as they went down George Yard and Angel Alley respectively, and if Barrett saw Leary afterwards loitering around waiting for a friend, then doesn't it make sense that the murderer is Private Law?

This could be the reason why he agreed with Leary's story which could have been a narrative of another time they'd gone out.

Of course the biggest problem with this theory is that Pearly Poll didn't pick out either of them.

I was wondering though, if any one had any more infomation on Law or Leary.
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ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 9:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fine, don't talk to me.
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ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello?

hello

Anyone out there?

out there

Echo

echo
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3346
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 11:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wintergreen,

I hear you! :-)
One unpleasant result of being an unregistred guest is that your posts arrives with some delay, and that they seldom are displayed as new posts. Therefore they are easily missed.
You've been extremely unlucky, though.

I have to agree with you in your thinking, and I believe as well there is a possibility that Tabram may have been killed by one or two soldiers. At 1:50 AM Tabram's body wasn't lying on the stairs and PC Barrett approached The loitering Grenadier at 2:00 AM.

Of course there is a possibility that the Grenadier's friend was on his way to pick up Tabram or another prostitute from somewhere, while he himself stood there waiting, and that they somewhere after 2:00 (after the Grenadier was questioned by Barrett on Wentworth Street) followed Tabram into the building. The first real sighting of Tabram on the stairs is not until 3:30.

As for Pearly Poll, her testimony have to be taken with caution; she could have been lying, and she could have been totally wrong about the time; apparently she was believed to withold information. So her last sighting of Tabram together with a soldier already at 11:45 shouldn't be given too much weight, since her credibility as a witness seems fragile, to say the least.

By the way; I love your cynical Diddles. :-)

All the best

(Message edited by Glenna on April 01, 2005)
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 484
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wintergreen,

I think Glenn quite well explained the large time gap between the PC's conversation with the Grenadier and the discovery of the body (with some evidence the body had not been there long). Moreover, it was a holiday weekend and everyone from publicans to prostitutes would be expecting a lot of business so there is a good possibility Tabram had found another client after the one known soldier.

As for your seeming to "cry in the wilderness," Glenn is right that being unregistered slows things up. Beyond that, there is more than a little "flocking behavior" on the boards. A particular victim or suspect will become the flavor of the month and draw all the attention. Right now interest in Tabram isn't high, but perhaps the exchanges today will draw some more posters.

Finally, I will admit to a personal prejudice in that, unless I have a lot of time, I skip by posters with made-up names. They tend to be one-off unregistered posters with but a single idea. You are clearly neither, having made interesting posts on a number of topics for some time now, so why not register?

Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Jane Coram
Inspector
Username: Jcoram

Post Number: 385
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Wintergreen,

I missed your post too and wouldn't have seen it now if Glenn hadn't noticed it......why not register and join our happy clan......(well like any family we do argue now and again!)

I actually was very torn about Martha for a long while, and leaned more towards the possibility that she might have been an earlier victim of JrR, but now have swung back in the other direction again and think that it was a soldier that killed, her, although one rather than two............

I kept thinking back to the bayonet practice that soldiers have indulged in since time immemorial and although it might be rather a flimsy reason to go in favour of a soldier, it did make me think that it seemed reasonable that a soldier was the murderer.........

That coupled with the fact that it seemed unlikely that JtR would have changed his modus operandi so radically, and the timing of the whole affair, I do now lean towards it being a straightforward murder by one of the soldiers she was with that night. ( Or another soldier that she picked up after, bearing in mind it was a Bank Holiday and there were lots of soldiers on leave)

As to Pearly Poll, well I think the fact that she disappeared and didn't want to give evidence and that she was a drunk as a skunk for most of the evening would make her testimony dubious to say the least.........

I did at first wonder why there was such a large time lapse between the time it would have taken her to service the soldier and the time she was actually murdered.

Poll said she left her client at 12.15am. What happened for the interim of 1 hour 45 minutes? Then, of course, Pearly Pollís time estimate of 12.15 could be wrong or confused, bearing in mind she was not the most reliable witness anyway.

I do think that her killer was someone other than JtR though, simply because of the difference of MO.......but I am sure that there are plenty that disagree!!!!!!!!!



And I love your artwork too, your Diddles is so wicked!

Jane

xxxxx
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 3347
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 2:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, Don,

The first known sighting of Tabram's body on the stairs was at 3:30, but it could have been there much earlier than that -- and subsequently all we know is that she was killed after 1:50, since it wasn't there at that time according to a witness.

She could very well have been killed some minutes after the PC:s conversation with the Grenadier, unless medical evidence prove otherwise, so I don't see the "time gap" argument as a valid proof of anything.

All the best
G. Andersson, author/crime historian
Sweden

The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, people have written back!

Thanks all, for clearing a few facts. The reason I bring this up is because there are so many coincidences, Barnett saw a soldier at the time of the murder very close to it, Pearly Poll says she and Tabram went off with sailors (even if she was high spirited unreliable drunkard) and that coupled with the possibility of one of the wounds being from a bayonet make it undeniably circumspect. (whatever that means)

Sure it doesn't prove anything, but I feel that it can't be ingored. So if that means Jack didn't kill Tabram or that Jack was a soldier, I mean we've got nothing else but circumstantial evidence.

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