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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » Mary Kelly Different from the rest « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 25, 2004CB50 6-25-04  3:18 pm
Archive through July 03, 2004Busy Beaver50 7-03-04  6:05 am
Archive through July 28, 2004Litz50 7-28-04  2:14 am
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1907
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 7:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Scott,

The Stone Tape Theory means that a spirit is connected to a certain place rather than to persons. The idea is, that an event with strong emotional content -- say, a battle or a murder -- is being "recorded" by the materia in the environment and then is "replayed" century after century like a on a film screen or a video.

This theory -- which is quite popular today in certain circles -- has its origin in attempts to explain sightings of soldiers on what once was a battle field, for example. For the most part it refers to ghosts that appear on the same spot over and over again and does the same thing on every occasion, with no apparent attempt to seek personal contact.

However, this theory doesne't fit all sightings, and it fails to explain other encounters, where ghosts appear on places they have no connection to and where their attention is directed towards yourself and tries to communicate with you (like a dead friend or relative etc.).

Personally, I think the Stone Tape theory could explain some sightings on former battle fields and murder sites and so on, but apart from that I think it's a wacko theory, that doesen't hold water on other occasions.
And I certainly don't think it applies to MJK and Mrs Maxwell, where there were a direct communication.

All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty

Post Number: 1283
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guys,

There seems to be at lot of residual on this thread....

...yes, thanks Sam,

Sam says that something awful happened here.......

....its, whats that Sam...a little louder please...

...thank you Sam, thank you, Sam says that this Stone tape theory, well its just a bag o $hite ......

Sorry Guys, me and Sam just dont buy it.

Monty who often orbs....but mainly on a Saturday night !
:-)


No, you cant have one extra on the leg side...but you can have five !
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1910
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Monty,

Why do you orb... and when?
Give my regards to Sam :-)

All the best

Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1911
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Monty,

"There seems to be at lot of residual on this thread..."

Yes of course. Honestly, how on Earth can any of us -- 115 years after the actual event have taken place -- really establish whether or not Mrs Maxwell saw Mary Kelly, or if she was mistaken?

All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

H I C H A P S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right.a) Glenn thanks for doing my Stone Tape explanantion for me!!!! couldnt have done it better old chap....and some of us (!) may remember an excellent BBC thing during the 1970's called the 'The Stone Tapes' starring somewhere in it I believe ...Michael Bryant

b)
Residuals eh! Hmmm That Sam guy has a lot to answer for!!

And Furthermore!!!!...c)
I Genuinely believe Mrs Maxwell saw Mary and recognised her that morning....Ooooh God here we go again!.Mary, I feel, didn't have the anonyimity ,that a lot of the others... Jack possibly included ..had the luxury of.. i.e. She was noticable when she was sashshaying(serious spelling horror here I'm sure!) up and around Dorset St!She would have been noticed....even by Mrs M and doubtless George (!) as someone who 'stood out' from the run of the Mill (ers Ct!)
Cheers
Suzi
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Scott Suttar
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scotty

Post Number: 147
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All.

Glenn, thanks for that explanation, I thought it was something like that but wanted to be sure.

Monty, wipe that orb off before you use it you never know where it's been.

Suzi, what are you saying with regards to Mary then? Are you saying it was not her who was murdered or are you saying she was killed after 9am?
Scotty.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 4:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Scott-

The Mary -was it her? monster stirs again!..Who knows..just have this nagging unease with this..most of what passes for the 'sensible' part of my mind tells me that of course it was Mary and that Dr Bond was right and thatshe met her end during the night etc etc ...but...the testimony of the Mrs Maxwells of this world niggle away..
Cheers
Suzi
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pf arm
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As far as i was aware stone taping, strictly, usually refers to an alledged ability on the minerals etc. in building material to under 'certain' atmosheric condition act as recorders. The sound is then played back when atmosperic conditions are suitable ie the right temperature.

Richard - if a ghost was solid and communicating how would you reconise it as a ghost? You could be seeing them everyday and be none the wiser.

To the question of the time of MK's death Prater IMO was doing a Packer when she claim to hear a cry (else surely she'd have mentioned it the next day to the man from the Star) though the whole senario of MK being alive well into the next morning doesn't make sense unless she was not a JtR victim.
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Scott Suttar
Inspector
Username: Scotty

Post Number: 152
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

Pf arm, I would rather believe inquest testimony than a newspaper report. I think we often lose sight of that when we are researching this case, mainly because contemporary press reports are a good source for information. In theory the inquest testimony is not vetted and therefore everything that a witness says is recorded. A newspaper report is vetted by at least a reporter and an editor. It is far more likely therefore, that a newspaper report omits some facts, rather than an inquest testimony adds some lies. This of course assumes that the witnesses are telling their recollections truthfully, but I see no basis for doubting Prater's inquest testimony. Let's also remember that another witness also heard a cry of murder between 3am and 4am.
Scotty.
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna

Post Number: 1917
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,

I agree with Scotty here, that we should be careful laying too much weight on the importance of papers like the Star in this context. The papers put in what they like in their article, and I agree with Scotty that it is the inquests that really counts as source references.

I think it is wrong to say that Prater "did a Packer" when she claimed she heard the cry of murder. After all, like Scotty says, this was corroborated by another witness as well.

I think we can establish that the cry of "Murder" actually did echo over Miller's Court that night/morning.
Then there is of course the delicate issue whether this cry really originated from Mary Kelly or not, but that's another story...

All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Greg Hutton
Sergeant
Username: Greg

Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 4:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the Dorset street numbering info is found at the link below:

Greg

http://casebook.org/dissertations/dst-viperdossier.html
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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne

Post Number: 1392
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 5:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

G'day Greg,

Thanks for pointing that out. When I get the time I will study it. Can somebody draw up a plan of Dorset Street like the plans shown here of Miller's Court, so we can understand Mrs Maxwell's statement?

LEANNE
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PF arm
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 8:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott/Glenn

I realise that newspapers dont report facts per se but this is because their main aim is to sell papers and if Mrs Prater claimed to the Star that she heard a cry of murder i think this would have been reported as it would have been a selling point for the paper. I can't think of an editorial reason for leaving the claim out, unless Prater did not make the claim.

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shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 5:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think it's a mistake to believe a witness mistake. Mary Kelly could not have been seen on the same morning of the horrific sight at number 13 when the police had the door battered in, the body was identified by Joe Barnett (you know... one time lover and prime suspect to her murder), the doctors report for timing of life expired could not be that wayyyyy..yyy out!. I think your'e looking at a statement were Mary Kelly was seen the previous morning on the 8th Nov, just one day out this witness. perhaps the confusion all started in the bottom of a glass of rum..he,he.
Regards Shelley
New Author
&
Criminology Student.
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all

Greg- The numbering as you say is correct! When Mrs M said she was out and about with the plates....who knows what she meant when she said (allegedly)I went over/across/up the road.......as we know these phrases can just be used for going out!...I feel sure that direction was far from her mind as you say she went OUT!at some point with the plates to return 'em and it stuck in her mind....as it would!

Leanne-
Will have a go at that using the maps of the day etc......would be good to do a 3D drawing of the court and get everything right cos theres still I feel a murkiness (is there such a word!) about exactly who was where and when etc etc

Shelley- There are many many theories and beliefs re the Mary being seen..on the morning following her 'death'.. and was it MJK on the bed etc....OK we'll never EVER know.. BUT, The testimony of Mrs Maxwell cannot ever be disregarded!There are way too many anomalies regarding 'witness statements' during the night before to not have an open mind here...

PFarm- NEVER believe anything you read in the papers....then as now!

Cheers
Suzi


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