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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » Joseph Martin - The man who photographed Mary Kelly? « Previous Next »

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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris

Post Number: 1238
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 7:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An obituary published on 23 December 1933 tells of one Joseph Martin. The article says "It was his duty to photograph the bodies of unknown persons in the Metrpolitan Police area." The article specifically says "It fell to his lot to photograph the features of women killed by Jack the Ripper."
Maybe at last we have a name for the man who took the Kelly photographs and others. I will see from the details given in the article below if I can find out more about him.
Chris

josmartin
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 371
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 8:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wonder if his heirs got a collection of his photos - including any from the Whitechapel Murders or other cases. Of course, if he had any of the latter, he probably had them under illegal circumstances.

Jeff
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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3112
Registered: 10-1997
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 8:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Chris, Jeff -

The late Adrian Phypers was particularly interested in Joseph Martin and police photography in general - he submitted a few articles on Martin during his work on the Casebook Press Project. They can be found at:

http://www.casebook.org/about_the_casebook/cbindex.html?showindex=Joseph%20Martin

We don't have the Times article yet though - thanks yet again, Chris!

- Stephen
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Dan Norder
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 131
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Adrian's article "Who Was the Mortuary Photographer?" in the October 2002 issue of Ripper Notes cited that obituary and other documents in pointing to Joseph Martin as the photographer.

Robert McLaughlin has a book coming out that also covers the topic, and Adrian contributed his research toward it, from what I remember Robert saying.

Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Robert J. McLaughlin
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 3:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,

You are absolutely correct. My book is dedicated to the memory of Adrian Phypers, who always thought the photographs/photgrapher was under- explored area of Ripper research. He was generous to loan me his research material and to assist me when I found more lines of inquiry on the topic.

For those of you who have the book East End Then and Now by Winston G. Ramsey, Joseph Martin's obituary from the Daily Herald can be found on page 211.

Robert

p.s. If anyone is interested in my forthcoming book (only one-third of the 200 copy print run are left), you can place an advance order through the names below. The release is slated for late summer at a cost of about 18.

Robert J. McLaughlin: lacassagne@email.com
Loretta Lay Books: http://www.laybooks.com/index_tc.asp
Murder One Books: http://www.murderone.co.uk/
Judy Stock (for American customers): needler@ntelos.net

The First Jack the Ripper Victim Photographs
Robert J. McLaughlin
Zwerghaus Books
ISBN: 0-9733794-0-5
(Softcover)

Sorry for the plug, but I just wanted to make sure that those of you interested in the subject get a copy, because I can't guarantee availability after publication.
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Dan Norder
Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 162
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Who Was the Mortuary Photographer?" is now available online.

Thanks are due to Stephen for converting it into web format and hosting it as well as Christopher-Michael DiGrazia and Christopher T. George for the editorial duties on that issue.

Dan Norder, editor, Ripper Notes
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 2683
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 2:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Dan and Stephen

Thanks for reprinting that fascinating article.

Robert
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DJ
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 8:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would just like to add a little comment about the excellent article on the identity of the mortuary photographer by the late Adrian Phypers, but one thing puzzles me about this statement he made on searching the 1881 census;

>>>Using the 1881 census produced by the Church of Latter-Day Saints, it was possible to run a check against all residents named Gumprecht in the county of Middlesex (which encompassed East london). Rather surprisingly, this revealed nobody by the name Louis Gumprecht. Only a Hanover-born publican, George S Gumprecht of 182 St George Street, and his family were listed under that surname.<<

What is puzzling is that he failed to mention that this George S. Gumprecht was listed as licensed victualler and "photographer" and one of his sons was actually named Ludwig which "Louis" is a shortened form of.
I did a little check of the national archives index and found a George Ludvig Gumprecht was naturalized in 1880;
Gumprecht, George Ludwig, from Germany. Resident in London. Certificate A3248 issued 27 April 1880.
note the middle name Ludwig ( Louis)
There only appears to be one Gumprecht family in England in 1881, and one George Gumprecht, could these two George's be actually the same man and his middle name was Ludwig or Louis?
Also in 1895 a George Ludwig Gumprecht was named as licensee at The Kings Head Hotel in Loughton Essex, could this be why he no longer had a photography business in London at that time?
I know this doesn't prove who the mortuary photographer actually was but surely it is possible that George (Ludwig)} Gumprecht could have been the Louis gumprecht 'photographer' who's stamp appears on the back of a couple of mortuary photographs?
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Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj

Post Number: 169
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 8:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I posted the above post about George Ludwig Gumprecht under my username dj when I was first starting posting here, and just wanted to follow up on a couple of things.
I have just been reading Dan Norder's review in Ripper Notes of Robert McLaughlins new book 'The First Jack the Ripper Victims Photographs' and it says Robert does discuss the photographer Joseph Martin who may have been tutored by Gumprecht.
I am just wondering if Robert names the George Ludwig Gumprecht, landlord of The Jolly sailor and photographer in my above post as the earlier photographer Louis Gumprecht whose stamp appears on the back of some mortuary photographs?....anyone got the book yet? It's on my list to santa!
Debra
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard

Post Number: 1148
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 9:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Debra :

Yes,I have a copy of the book and indeed, G.L. Gumprecht was "Louis" Gumprecht. He dropped his first name and Anglicized his second name. Mr. McLaughlin cites,as reference, the marriage certificate of the man [ June 12th, 1865 ] made in Middlesex.

I hope Santa delivers it to you Deb !
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Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj

Post Number: 170
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cheers Howard!

Santa baby hope you are reading this...I've been an awful good girl
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Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 1007
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 1:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Debra,

Just because I don't like to accidentally take credit for other people's efforts, Wolf actually did that review. The credit listing for the front of that section is in order of how many total reviews were done and not necessarily the order as they were printed. The initials of the reviewer at the end are kind of subtle, though.

But, anyway, yeah, I'm still hoping to get a copy of the book myself. It looks like a must-have.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile    Email    Dissertations    Website
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 2612
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 4:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Debra,
I looked again at the reference to Gumprecht in Robert"s book,remembering that he covered this in his talk in Brighton.On page 56 he writes:Finding Gumprecht in the census" proved a problem.In the 1881 census a George S.Gumprecht was living at 182 and 183 Cannon Street Road.The middle initial proved a transcription error when the original page was consulted proving that there was not a second Grumpecht.By this time Louis had become a naturalised British subject, and his occupation was listed as a "Licenced Victualler Photographer".The address that the Gumprecht family were now living at was the Jolly Sailor public house.

McLaughlin, when he gave his talk suggested that his next move,one of necessity and which followed the unexpected death of his wife, was to the scenic woods of Epping Forest-better to improve sales of snaps of "Happy Family outings" etc and therefore better support his growing family.



Another point he raised was that though the Photograph of Frances Coles has his stamp on its back there is no way it could have been taken by him--- he wonders then if its possible that it was just an old stamp still being used to validate police photographs.......
and this lead McLaughlin to the discovery of the true photographer of the Whitechapel murders!
The book is superb Debra-something to look forward to!
Natalie
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Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj

Post Number: 172
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Natalie
I have dropped enough hints to santa...just hope he picks up on it!
Are we talking Gumprecht and Epping Forest?
Debra
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn

Post Number: 2613
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not really Debra----I dont want to spoil it for you as it is quite exciting how he tracked down the real photographer of Mary Kelly et al.
Natalie
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Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj

Post Number: 174
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok...I can wait...I can't really but I will try..
Thanks Natalie
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Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj

Post Number: 175
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BTW Dan, Wolf
sorry for the miscredit, those initials are really tiny !!!
Off topic I know, but great issue!

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