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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » Victims » Mary Jane Kelly » "Oh Murder!!" » Archive through April 14, 2004 « Previous Next »

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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 792
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alex,

Thanks for clearing that up. I must have forgotton about the rest of her testimony.

I also think Prater's claims are dubious. I know that sometimes witnesses can remember things later on but to actually "rememember" there was only one shout instead of two or three is a bit strange.

Sarah
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Jeff Hamm
Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm

Post Number: 226
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,
Wouldn't the "I didn't hear it a 2nd time", mean "I didn't hear a 2nd set of screams"? Which would allow for the 1st round of screams to contain multiple shouts of murder (one "set" if you will), and there was no 2nd round of shouting.

Of course, this just keeps Prater's statements consistent with Prater's statements and doesn't resolve the difference between hearing one and hearing multiple utterances of the word murder.

It's always struck me as an odd thing to shout out when being attacked though. I would think Help! Then again, it has been testified that such shouts were common in the area so as odd as it may seem to me, apparently it was not odd for the time and location.

- Jeff
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Alex Chisholm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Alex

Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jeff

Without repeating the various statements, (Oh, no! I hear you cry) I think Prater’s testimony is quite unambiguous. As I see it, at the inquest she claims to have heard one cry only, which is inconsistent with her earlier claims.

I agree that calling out “Murder!” rather than “Help!” can seem a bit odd to us. Nevertheless, a variety of newspaper reports from 1888, often unrelated to JtR, seem to confirm that cries of “Murder!” were not at all uncommon.

Best wishes
alex

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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Mr Ryder but I
put this post in the wrong place could you show it here please.

Alex.
Where can the source for the 9th November police statement of Mrs Prater be found? i.e. the one where she said that she had heard two or three cries of murder.

I’ve had a look around, and can only find the inquest report, but cannot find the statement she gave to police on 9 November.

I'm also sure I’ve read somewhere that the method she used to determine the time of the cry, lay in the fact that the Lamp above the lodging house across the road from her, was extinguished.

Apparently they extinguished the lamp at a set time, 3:30 I believe (but don't quote me). And she set the time of the cry by this fact.
People who don't have timepieces tend to use this method of determining the time.

This has a ring of truth about it, and I would say that this statement tips the balance in favour of Mrs Prater.

Of course the above is just a memory with me, something I think I have read (these things happen all the time), so don't quote me.

Prater apparently lived above Kelly, and said that she could hear Kelly move around in her room below.
Isn't it possible that with her being closer to Kelly than Mr Lewis, she heard more than Mrs Lewis (that’s if she did hear three cries)?

One final fact comes to me regarding Mrs Prater. If it is true, that she did state that she determined the time of the cry by the extinguished lamp, then she could not, as has been stated, live in the room directly above Mary Kelly.

If Mrs Prater could see the lamp above the lodging house from her room window, then she must of occupied the front upper room that looked out onto Crossinghams lodging house across the street. Mary Kelly lived in the rear of the two rooms on the ground floor of the building.

The only other alternative is that the upper room in the building the one immediately above Kelly,( Mrs Praters) stretched from the front of the building, right to the rear of the building.

See map in, " Is this the last known photo of Millers Court", thread.
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Ronald James Russo Jr.
Police Constable
Username: Vladimir

Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could it be that Mrs. Lewis heard a loud Scream of "Oh, Murder" while Mary was first attacked (And Mrs. Prater was still asleep)? The Cat startled wakes Mrs. Prater, who then hears a softer "Oh, Murder" As Mary is being Strangled. This "oh, Murder" is not heard by Mrs. Lewis because it is so soft. This all happens within a few seconds, so the timing would be right.

Of course the shouts might not have been from Mary at all. I mean if she did scream "Oh, Murder" Loudly, do you think Jack would have stayed around? Or would he have assumed that no one would care?

Just some more late night ramblings.

Vlad
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek

Post Number: 437
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the reason a cry of "Murder!" instead of merely a scream sounds so strange to us is that we are forgetting that cry was not simply an expression of horror, it was a plea for help of a specific nature.

Picture it this way: if I were walking along the street and someone threatened me with a knife I would pick up my cell phone (that's "mobile phone" to you Brits ), call 911 (999) and say "Someone is threatening to murder me!" If I only had time to get out one word, that word would be "murder!" rather than "help!" because it conveys the nature of the help required. It would do far less good simply to scream into the phone something that did not convey the extent of the emergency. Yelling out "Murder!" was the 1888 equivalent of dialing up 911 (999).

Andy S.
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Sarah Long
Chief Inspector
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 807
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think Vlad has point there. If Mary did cry out "murder" then maybe his scenaro did happen. It would make sense that way.

However his second point is also a good one. If it was Mary crying out, how could Jack guarantee that no-one would come to her aid and manage to catch him or look through the window.

This is another reason why I don't believe Mary was the one who cried out.

Sarah
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Cludgy
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Frank.

If you remember we had a discusion as to where exactly Mrs Prater lived.

In a statement of hers, she stated that she lived above the shed.

This had me baffled, and I envisiged a shed(wooden structure) situated in the corner of the court to the left of Kelly's windows, as you look at them in one of the photographs of Kelly's room.

All became clear however when I viewed Mr Scott's plan of Millers Court in, General Discussions, "Maps showing movements" thread.

If you look at the plan you will see that the room adjacent to Kelly's the one that fronts on to Dorset street is known as the Shed.

Mrs Prater stated she lived in a room " above the Shed".

So it seems that she didn't live immediately above Kelly, but in the room that fronted on to Dorset street.

It might also explain why (presuming that it was Kelly's cry that night,) she only heard the cry faintly.

Does it also follow that the lodging house light that she referred to, was Crossinghams?
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 618
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Cludgy!
Have just posted on the mjks room after her murder thread on gen disc. take a look at it....it seems we have a problem as to the exact positioning of Mrs P (and Diddles!!!) This shed.... I reckon IMHO that it was at the front of McCarthys place onto Dorset Street,and that Marys 'place' was as we know down the alley....now if Mrs P's place was bigger than avreage it may have extended down over Mary's partitioned room so as to take up all of that floor,so if she was sleeping in the back half of the room, she may or may not have heard some 'murder' stuff.....just a thought.....but would seem to be a probability!....get back on the MJK's room after her murder thread on gen Disc eh!
Cheers
Suzi
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 630
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Cludgy...
wheres the rest of this argument gone then!!! suzi
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M.Mc.
Unregistered guest
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hate to put it this way but how many of you recall as children watching Bugs Bunny? Why do I bring this up? One of the things Bugs said in a sarcastic way was, "OH MURDER!" It's a rather old slang that has all but died now days.
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Avril Ford
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 3:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Prater said that she heard someone cry "oh, murder" in a faint voice, not a scream. If someone was coming at you with a knife wouldnt it make more sense to say murderer rather than oh murder? I believe that Mary Kelly returned home, found the mutilated body and said faintly, "oh murder". Then she went out and was sick on the pavement.
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Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi

Post Number: 652
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AVRIL!!!! MAKES SENSE TO ME!!! sorry about the caps but what Avril just posted seemed to make a lot of sense here... I know we've talked about this beforehand and will and will and will but...
......! but....???!! xx suzi
Mrs M would have remembered the day I think.....taking her plates back and the Lord Mayors Show et al!!!
A thought xx suzi
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brad kelley
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perhaps it wasn't "oh murder" at all, perhaps it was "Joe?" (as in is that you?) and then "MURDER".
Easy to mistake oh and Joe especially from another floor in the middle of the night. Case solved!
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Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't get how people more than a 100 years after the fact can say what word choice makes more sense in that situaton in 1888.

We know that "murder!" was used to try to summon help at the time, as earlier that autumn at least one woman who had felt threated by someone else with a knife had yelled out that word, and a police officer came to see what was the matter. So, obviously, it was something that people would say. Just because you wouldn't say it now doesn't mean they wouldn't say it then.

The faintness aspect could be explained any number of ways (and has already been so explained on these boards multiple times): MJK was waking up / faint / being suffocated and couldn't scream, or Prater was half asleep, or had a bad ear, or the noise came from elsewhere, or whatever.

The worst thing about the theories that said MJK was alive is that they are based upon witnesses claiming to have seen her that morning but doing things that she sure as heck wouldn't be doing if she had found someone dead and mutilated in her bed. The second worst thing is that if these stories had been true, they could have been confirmed with any number of other people in the area, especially at the pub, and they never were. So a couple of witnesses were wrong, happens all the time...
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Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've often wondered if people about to be murdered ever actually said "Oh, Murder!". Seems to me I've read in several books that some witnesses remarked that hearing someone call "murder!" was such a common occurance in that time and place that they didn't pay it any mind.

Did Victorian women really say that when they thought they were about to die? Wasn't it more likely used as an expression like an extreme "Oh, Brother!"? (See M.Mc.'s letter above). When you saw the knife, wouldn't you just yell or scream? Did people use to cry "Oh, Armed Robbery!"?

Here in the U.S., hipsters in the 1940s used to say "Murder!" like people now say "Cool!" (there was even a Big Band song titled "Murder! He Says" about a girl and her jive-talking boyfriend complimenting her on the way she kisses).

Steve
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Avril Ford
Unregistered guest
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's usually the case that when when someones theory or suspect doesn't collaborate with the times given in statements by witnesses, the witnesses are the ones (even though they were present at the time) that are wrong. As to the fact that it was common place for cries of murder being heard in the East End, i do not dispute this. However it was the people that discovered the bodies that generally cried murder not the people being murdered. Although languages have changed throughout the centuries peoples reactions to life and death situations haven't. Also Prater wasnt the only one to hear a cry of murder Sarah Lewis heard the same thing.
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Ronald James Russo Jr.
Sergeant
Username: Vladimir

Post Number: 39
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Avril,

Who are we to say that she did not say "Oh, Murder", whilst being attacked? I, for one, do not know the language used back in 1881. For you to say that peoples reactions to life and death situations have not changed, is wrong. Times change, here in the US, women are told to yell FIRE or HELP, not RAPE if they are sexually assaulted as they get more of a response. (It is horrible that they should have to do that)Would a person in 1950 have done that, I do not think so. Also are you saying that ALL of the witnesses for everything to do with JTR are correct? And was the Doctors testimony that she died in the Early morning (Was it 03:30?) wrong?
So who is right and who is worng? And how are we to know who is right and who is wrong?

Vlad

(Message edited by vladimir on April 13, 2004)
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling

Post Number: 335
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In one of the Sherlock Holmes stories (I think it is "The Adventure of the Copper Beeches" but I'm not sure)Holmes and Watson are in the country, and Holmes makes the observation that he'd prefer to be in danger in the worst part of London than in such lovely bucolic areas as where they are. When Watson asks why, Holmes explains that in even the worst areas, if you yell for help or in terror there is a good chance of somebody coming to your assistance. In the countryside - there is less opportunity when yelling in terror or for help of somebody coming to your aid, because of the relative isolation you find in the countryside.

Judging from what happened in 1888 in the East End, this view seems highly problematic. Also one recalls Kitty Genovese in my native Queens forty years ago. But usually cries for help can attract more attention in urban settings rather than the countryside. Small comfort for Mary Kelly about that.

Jeff
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Donald Souden
Inspector
Username: Supe

Post Number: 210
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeff,

It was, indeed, "The Adventure of the Copper Beeches" in which Holmes and Watson had their coloquoy about urban and rural life and Holmes opined that "the lowest and vilest alleys in London do not present a more dreadful record of sin than does the smiling and beautiful countryside."

However, rather than neighbors responding quickly to a cry for help, Holmes felt it was "[t]he pressure of public opinion [that] can do in the town what the law cannot accomplish." Well, angry letters to the Times didn't do much for Mary either.

Incidentally, Kitty Genovese was from my home town and I played baseball with one of her younger brothers. Unfortunately, public apathy remains the norm with such incidents.

Don.
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Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 5:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All

'shouting blue murder'

Meaning making a fuss over not very much - a common saying in my childhood in the fifties/sixties.

I understand this as meaning that the shout of murder had at some time previous to the popularity of that phrase been overused, i.e. people would shout 'murder' when actually not much was happening. It may have been already true by 1888 that shouting murder, although natural when actually fearing murder, was not going to attract much attention because people would shout 'murder' on much less cause. Shouting 'Jack the Ripper' would I am sure have got a much more spectacular response. But maybe it wasn't Jack...

Regards

Pete
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Steve Laughery
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two people in Miller's Court hear "Oh, murder!".

Do they -
a)throw open a door or window to hear or see better what is going on?
b)run to the police station to report a horrible crime, and possibly catch Jack the Ripper?
c) roll over and go back to sleep?

I honestly think the reason they chose "c" was because hearing such a thing meant nothing. They lived there; they knew. They had surely heard that said enough times to realize they probably weren't hearing the desperate last cry of a woman about to be murdered. They were probably hearing the annoying whine of the drunken neighbor who locked herself out of her apartment at 4:00 in the morning (again).

Just my opinion. I don't mean it as an attack on the viability of anyone's theory.

Steve
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Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz

Post Number: 985
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi All,

I always thought of MJK as being pretty street-wise. Yet people argue that, on being attacked in her own room at the height of the ripper scare, she could only manage to cry out a couple of words that her sisters - and she herself, had she heard them uttered by another - would simply ignore as far too commonplace to worry their sleepy heads about.

Something ain't hitting the right spot for me here.

Love,

Caz
X
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Sarah Long
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Sarah

Post Number: 1008
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,

I agree. If it was common for the cry of "Oh Murder" to actually mean that someone was being or about to be murdered then I think the two women would have reacted differently.

Sarah
Smile and the world .... will wonder what you've been up to.
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Avril Ford
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vlad
thats strange, it may just be me but i have never read a newspaper report about an attempted rape or murder where the victim shouted help or fire. Its probably just me, maybe i haven't been reading the correct newspapers. Oh wait its in the US well thats were i'm going wrong then. Times change, in America but here in England where the murders were commited there still pretty much the same. An example may be in order to demonstrate this point. In Shakespeares Macbeth, after Macbeth has murdered King Duncan the two men (could be either the grooms or Duncans sons Malcolm or Donaldbain) who have been drugged sleeply awake to see Macbeths bloodstained and Macbeth says "There's one did laugh in's sleep, and one cried, "Murder!". That was written in 1604-5 and wow times have REALLY changed since then. I never said that all the times given were correct, its very posible that they arent. However i do think that lots of people are guilty of the very same crimes as Patricia Cornwell. Chosing a favourite suspect and then working to fit the times around them, and if they dont fit then the witnesses are wrong.

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