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M.Mc.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 6:33 pm: |       |
Perhaps because she was the most cut up victim of Jack the Ripper and killed in doors. But I would like to know why the other victims are not talked about as much as Mary Kelly is. There seems to be a whole lot of conspiracy about her roll as a JTR victim. Which I find it odd that I have only come across one about all these victims being part of a conspiracy. The Royal conspiracy of course. I would like all of you to give your two cents here if you don't mind? Because I find this to be the most interesting area of the case outside of who the killer might have been. I would like to know more on why people tend to think what they do about Mary Kelly's roll as a victim. Even if it's off the wall or silly. I've been thinking about this and felt it was time to ask this question.  |
Candy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 1:49 am: | |
Humble opinion ahead - I may be talking out my hat here.
Ms. Kelly is the ultimate tabula rasa - blank slate - on which everyone involved seems to have projected whatever they wished onto. We don't really know her hair color (descriptions range from blonde to fair to ginger to dark), her eye color (I don't think it was ever mentioned), her height (other than medium build), weight (see last) or anything about her.
She's a mystery.
And the extreme mutilations completely eradicated whatever was left of her identity - McCarthy was right when he compared her corpse to a butchered animal. You really have to look close to comprehend what you're looking at. And there's the trainwreck factor - the picture is so very unsettling, you feel you need to look away, yet you return to it.
She is more exposed in those pictures than she would be if she were naked.
I also think the randomness comes into play - we have the testimony of Geo. Hutchinson about what we think was the ripper - she walked past and he reached out to her. It's one of those if only moments - if only she'd told him to bugger off, if only Hutch had had some money, if only she'd walked down another street. Noone saw the other women picked up by (possibly) their killer. But she slips through our fingers, before our eyes.
And let's face it, youth and beauty sells papers. Ms. Kelly was at least 10 years younger and probably the fairest of them all. And the illustrators could go wild with their sketches because they had nothing to go on. The others were older, worn out and broken down. The papers make little mention of the fact that Ms. Chapman was good with a crochet hook or that Ms. Eddowes was a chipper and musical lady.
So I guess what I'm going on (and on and on and on...) about is the cult of personality. Ms. Kelly seems to be - a hundred years on - the kind of self-aggrandizing personality that's so popular today, witness the 'Marie Jeannette', the gay house, the trip to Paris. All these things were self reported. Newspapermen and police never found any independent confirmation of ONE SINGLE THING she said about her past.
She seems to have been inventing herself like Madonna or Beth Short.
Ok, I'm tired, I'm rambling, and I'm probably full of hoo-hah. Good question though. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the other responses to it.
~~Candy |
Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 224
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:49 pm: | |
I think Candy is on the right track.
We seem drawn to Kelly, not despite the fact we know almost nothing about her, but because of that same fact. We don't even know if Mary Kelly is actually her name.
And there is the mutilations. I still remember the first time I saw the photo of Mary. I was fourteen years old, and looking at a book of old mysteries, and there was a section on the ripper. The book only had a photo of one victim, any guesses who?
I was shocked, disgusted, and yet (as Candy stated) strangely attracted to it. Not because I liked what I saw, but because I had never seen anything like it. We don't see photos of dead bodies very often (at least I don't) and if and when you do, they certainly don't look like Mary.
I was reminded of Faust, which I had read just before. At the end Faust is found literally all around the room, and the same seemed to have happened to Mary. Maybe her encounter wasn't with the devil, but then again, maybe it was. |
Paul Jackson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 8:45 pm: | |
Hey Everybody,
I think that MJK is talked about the most because of all the people that think her boyfriend Barnett was Jack the Ripper.(NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT). If you look at all the MJK threads, its mostly the same people arguing about the details.
Ok...Im ducking now...haha
Paul |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1521
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:06 pm: | |
OK, Paul.
Duck!
All the best 
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 287
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 2:03 pm: | |
I believe that she is the most talked about for a variety of reasons, not the least being that we know very little about her. She is also younger that the rest of the victims and she was the most mutilated.
Mikey |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1545
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 4:26 pm: | |
Hi all,
I think Mary Jane Kelly belong to the more talked about Ripper victims, because she had "qualities" that have made it easy to romanticise her.
I think it comes down to the following:
1) She was young and considered attractive
2) She was murdered indoors, which separates her from the others
3) The extensive mutilations, far worse than any of the others
4) Her face was hacked to pieces, and we have no existing photo of her, a fact that helps to mystify her
5) Her personal history is a mystery in itself, and all we know comes from a source named Joseph Barnett -- if that applies to the truth about her (or if she fed him lies) we will never know. This also helps to mystify her.
Simply put: the less information you have (or the information available is unverified) and with no portrait existing of the person, the ground for romanticism and mystification is set. Her being a young woman, supposed to be good looking (which we can't verify or value ourselves) also helps.
I like Candy's reference to the expression tabula rasa -- I think that applies very well on Kelly indeed.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on April 16, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 802
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 4:42 pm: | |
Hi,
Mary kellys murder fascinates me , because she sums up the whole of the 'Autumn of Terror'
She appears to have been the last victim, therefore all sort of theorys derive from that.
We also have lots of witnesses, which we can discuss, accept , or dismiss. and of course that disgusting picture of her, in her sordid room, which is the ultimate in terror.
Everyone likes a mystery, we are hooked on this one, and believe me my friends, this is a intricate one to solve.
Regards Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1291
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 5:40 pm: | |
G'day,
I think the question: Why is Mary the most talked about JTR victim?', can be answered with the words: BECAUSE OF THAT PHOTO! All of the other victims were photographed at the mortuary and not as they were found, at the actual crime scene.
People look at that photo and think: 'Did he stand in that very spot?', 'Did he actually touch that thing?', 'What was going through his mind?' People start looking for clues.
LEANNE |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 673
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 12:33 pm: | |
Leanne-
I agree...its THE PHOTO that does it!! also there seems to have been a certain 'charm' about the others,as Candy said.. Annie's crochet and Kate's little 'sparra' bit.....I've always felt that MJK was actually at the end of the day a rather nasty piece of work!.......
Cheers
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 673
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
Why Suzi? I am interested because from what Joe actually said in court the impression given is that she was kind to other women in the same boat as herself.
My own impression of Mary is that early on she found an escape in alcohol and her addiction came before everyone and everything.She chose to go on the streets because of it it has always seemed to me and she allowed it to dominate her life.
But I think she was suffering a level of distress about it that was quite significant judging from remarks attributed to her in the press and by friends.I think I am cautious of judgement in this respect.
Best Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 3:42 pm: | |
I don't agree with Suzi and Leanne here on this matter. I think it's mainly the fact that we know very little about her and especially the fact that we don't know what she looked like, that makes her interesting.
That always triggers the imagination and creates an interest. I have my own personal experiences on exactly the same thing with a couple of other murder victims that I've studied, and it's the anonymity that makes them mysterious. And the fact that's its a young woman who is supposed to be pretty makes it even more intriguing, if you don't know what she looked like. Could be that it's a male thing, but anyway...
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 336
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 7:39 pm: | |
I'm going to suggest two other points regarding MJK that might be mulled over.
1) Her mutilations were the worst of the series (that we know of - what if there were other killings by the murderer(s) that were somehow passed off as ghastly accidents or hidden successfully - odd as it might sound). It was impossible to imagine anyone capping off Miller's Court with something else, short of repeating it in an entire bordello of MJK clones, or taking the murders into the West End and beginning to slaughter "loose" living "society" types - say a member or two of The Marleborough House Set. So Mary Kelly wins a trophy by becoming the most grotesque looking victim of the 19th Century.
2) The fact she is young, possibly pretty, possibly living in fear, and treated far worse by the creep because he is indoors, working in the wee small hours of the morning - makes her more than Nicholls, Chapman, Eddowes, and Stride (and Tabram, Smith, Coles and the others) a figure to pity for having been robbed of her life. The photos just shows how thoroughly she was robbed of it. So we feel more angry at the creep, and more inclined at thinking of avenging Mary Kelly.
A final thought has crossed my mind in typing up this comment. I have referred to her several times as MJK. Is one of the reasons that we have
unconciously adopted MacNaughten's last suspect as a leading one because his name's initials are MJD. If Monty Druitt were the killer known as Jack the Ripper, how appropriate that within one month of destroying MJK he destroyed MJD (if he did indeed kill himself).
Jeff |
Andrew Gable
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 10:18 pm: | |
I can't speak for others, but speaking for myself, Kelly is the most interesting of the victims from the standpoint that she was very likely integral to the case. Looking at the photo, it's evident that every ounce of his rage was spent on her, and certain things about her circumstances, along with the mysterious quality of her own life, imply to me that she was the linchpin and possible provider of the motive for the whole case. Thus, she's a focus of mine (but I still try to get around looking at the photo if at all possible, Eddowes too).
The Jack character in the graphic novel of From Hell had a good point in one of his quotes in his lengthy soliloquy over Kelly's body. I can't recall it exactly, but he was saying about how in the future, no one will remember him, while people will make Kelly famous - the polar opposite of what she was in life. She's almost an icon for the whole case, and it seems almost that some people forget the reality of who she was.
I've heard that the photo of Kelly was the first photo taken in connection with a murder investigation at the scene. Certainly it was the first JTR victim, but I always got the impression that it was the first of any murder anywhere. Just on that basis it's noteworthy. |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 676
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 4:25 pm: | |
Hi all
Sorry if that sounded a bit harsh there about Mary,
Nats-Ok I'm sure she was kind to the other poor souls in the same boat....I really am, but does that make her any better or worse than the rest of them?I think Mary,in common with most of the other poor souls took solace in alchohol to make her wretched life a little easier,but cant help but think that Mary was a manipulative girl who was maybe up for every and any chance to get out of her predicament and 'better herself' ,hence the trips to France etc.
Glenn-Hi again....Yes I see what you mean by the mysterious 'pretty' woman thing ,and do agree its probably a male thing...but putting that aside..Mary's 'demise' is so horrendous, so unusual and unique even to this day ,that the girl who looked 'as if she could fell a carthorse' has taken on a rather fragile,precious air ,which probably ,in my rather cynical opinion wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in Dorset St!Just a thught.....also Joe was it seemed rather worried about her especially when she had a 'chum' with her Lizzie ,Julia,et.al.He didnt stay long ,did he, on the last evening ,even though'the female whose name he did not know' (Lizzie,Maria or Julia or ??? ) had left soon after his arrival
Cheers Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 678
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 5:56 pm: | |
Hi Suzi,thanks for the reply.
Well I suppose I feel bound to say why shoudn"t she try to better herself? Should she have been content with her lot and if so wwhat had she to look forward to?
Mary was young and according to at least one police officer "pretty".So the question I ask is what had brought her so low? I do not wish to glamourise her in any way.However she did not "survive" the East end and hadnt been doing so for some time since Joe and she had been evicted from their previous place and Mary had left several other houses including the West end one under a cloud.Her life in short consisted of getting by on through moonlighting and at the very end of risking her life to try to pay rent that she had got 4 months behind with.And this at 2.30 in the morning on a cold rainy November night.Mary was no survivor.
But people appear to have liked her despite her brawling and her debts.
Its Mary"s very vulnerability and youth that strikes a chord.Her very inability to cope with the adverse and unsympathetic forces surrounding her that touches our sympathy and compassion.
Just like Marilyn.
Natalie |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 320
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:41 pm: | |
Gang,
I have to agree - the level of mutilations, the fact that she was young and attractive - all of those things make her the most compelling of the victims for most people.
Personally, I view all of them as equally unfortunate, but MJK's gets the most attention.
B |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 679
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:36 am: | |
Hi all,
Yes ok points taken.
For sheer pathos though,all the attendant horrors and mysteries around Mary aside,it's still Kate that touches the heart strings for me,for what its worth.
As it appears to be Monday,will have to leave any more constructive comments for later,and get to work..life's priorities can be very unkind at times!
Cheers
Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 679
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:39 am: | |
Brian,Actually for me Catharine Eddowes is more
interesting.I love that resilience she seems to have had,her sense of humour in the middle of all her troubles[as with her jailor exchange just before being released for D&D.Another picture of her I have is of she and John Kelly off hop-picking in Kent and coming back broke but not defeated because of a poor hop-picking season.
She seems to have had "joie de vivre",a light hearted acceptance of her misfortunes or something similar.Once again I think the bottle did for her---was quite literally her "ruin".
Natalie |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Hi Suzi and Natalie,
I agree this time.
I personally is very intrigued by Eddowes. I find her very likable and sympathetic and she was apparently something of a character. Natalie is right about her humour ("What is your name?" --"Nothing" ). And although she like all the others is a tragic figure, I admire her for it and find her fascinating. And the fire engine incident is a classic, even although it was a result of alcohol).
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on April 19, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 681
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:08 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
..Nats and everybody!
Ok There is something about Kate and Kelly(!) coming back after the 'opping and their rather sad day,parting at night and nmeeting up for breakfast that does have an endearing charm,no boots etc etc....still cant quite work out how Kate went out 'penniless' and ended up with the famous fire engine thing!!!....bless her!!! the 'Good night old C**K' thing still has a lovely ring about it.....dont you think!.At the end of the day all Kates 'belongings' have a pathos' that is to die for!.Also love the idea of Kelly and Kate being (Quote A-Z) "An appealingly loyal and supportive couple, wonderful lines there...
Cheers Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Chief Inspector
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 682
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:11 pm: | |
Hey Nats
What do you think??? Have never managed to do a satisfactory Kate painting....A great girl tho.....hows you??
xx Suzi |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 683
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:56 pm: | |
Hi Suzi,yes I agree with you on all this above.That moment,when she wanted to get out and off and she turned to him and said "goodnight old
c**k" is just priceless.I was also very taken with the idea of Kate "singing softly to herself".
But you are right -its when they announce her to have been "impersonating a fire engine" that really takes the biscuit!
And John Kelly when he sees the mess "his poor Kate was in"---and how he was in a state about it.
Yes she seems to have been quite a character and also quite beautiful though a bit ravaged by life.
And yes maybe we could both start a painting of her for a change.
Nats xxx |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 277
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 7:29 pm: | |
Hi, everyone
Mary Kelly may be the most talked about, but I think Eddowes has to be the most likeable. My favorite part is after being particularly condescending to her, Hutt asks her pull the door shut on her way out. She doesn't quite manage it, does she?
Dave |
Jim Garrison
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:25 pm: | |
I agree with a lot of the points already mentioned, but for me the reasons Mary has become the victim most worthy of attention are these:
1. That photograph - as others have mentioned, that photo, once seen is never forgotten - even in today's society do we rarely see something so 'in your face' shocking. It's the act of someone who represents 'pure evil', and is the culmination of the killer's reign.
2. Mary's youth - being young she had the most to lose and yet she suffered the worst fate (at least in terms of post mortem mutilation).
3. Mary was the last in the series (we assume) and therefore appears in some way to be the ultimate goal of the perpetrator.
Jim |
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