|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 603
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 5:00 pm: |       |
Yes Robert,OK I suppose I cant think of them without feeling sad about the lives they led in the end and the deaths they had to suffer.I suppose I feel some of this was their private affair,certain details.I cant ever read through that list of Catherine Eddowes belongings without a lump in my throat---that she had so little to her name.Actually I am a bit tired now so maybe I am a bit unreasonable. I"ll sleep on it and if I change my mind I"ll let you know.Natalie |
Eduardo Zinna
Sergeant
Username: Eduardo
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 7:06 pm: | |
Dear all,
May I ask you all kindly to read Daniel Olsson's article in Ripperologist 52 before going much further into this subject? Daniel has shown great tact and sensitivity in his handling of Elisabet Stride's early life. If anything, the image we can derive from Daniel's piece cannot but make her a more rounded human being, someone we cannot dismiss as just someone who happened to cross the path of a ruthless killer. In my view, the more we know about Elisabeth and her fellow victims - as well as about all the unfortunate women who may not have shared her tragic end but did share her short, unhappy life - the closer we come to appreciating in its right dimension the loss that even one of their drab lives represented. Remember John Donne and the things he had to say about islands and bells? It may be a cliche by now, but no one has ever said it better.
Best,
Eduardo |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1432
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 9:24 pm: | |
Eduardo, I absolutely agree with you. That is just my point. I have indulged in the same kind of studies myself, and I know that they are crucial in order to get behind the cliches of people involved in a murder case one way or the other.
I have no doubts whatsoever that Daniel Olsson has done a great job and that he's been sensitive in his handling of Elisabeth Stride. I can very much relate to that kind of research and I can't wait to read it, as soon as I see a possibility.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on April 02, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 9:38 pm: | |
Natalie,
Don't try to turn this into a feminist issue.
The Ripper victims' gender has nothing to do with it whatsoever. I don't look at things from a gender perspective; if the victims were male I would hold exactly the same views anyway -- it wouldn't make any difference. I think that kind of research is important regardless if it concerns criminals, victims, police officials, witness and people in the periphery etc. -- the gender is completely irrelevant.
So, if the victims were male, you wouldn't have the same objections...?
The real lives about the people involved (turning them into flesh and blood instead of just anonymous characters in paper articles or police reports) is -- together with the historical and social context -- the most important reason why I think the Jack the Ripper case is intriguing -- to solve the case is secondary.
I really don't see your reasoning here.
Personally, I would recommend you to read the article before you jump to conclusions, as Eduardo suggests.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1435
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 10:13 pm: | |
I have often wondered about the status of the archives in the Göteborg area and its geographical surroundings (since that is the part of Sweden we're dealing with here, regarding Stride); in Sweden this kind of documentation (especially the police and prostitute files) differ quite much from region to region and I have yet not been able to study those from that particular local area. If Daniel has managed to get a great deal of information out of it, I believe he indeed has done a great job. It can be tricky.
Aaah, I really must read that article.
Too bad Stride wasn't Danish; the Danish police files are incredibly well kept and organized, even better than the Swedish ones.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 604
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 3:14 am: | |
Glenn,You really do need a bit of education in gender issues.
Over here there was an absolutely huge to do over the handling of the other ripper[Yorkshire].
It certainly has many ,many gender matters attached to it as well as those to do with the oppressive and repressive nature of Victorian Society and its monumental inequalities.If you don"t understand that then I can"t help.
If you are interested I am more than happy with Eduardo"s comments above and trust the article deals with the subject with sensitivity and understanding.
Best Wishes Natalie. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1438
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 6:41 am: | |
Natalie,
"Glenn,You really do need a bit of education in gender issues."
No thank you. I'll pass.
Gender issues are totally uninteresting to me. I believe in objective research (without consider certain kinds of interests), and I still don't see what that had to do with the article in the first place.
"If you are interested I am more than happy with Eduardo"s comments above and trust the article deals with the subject with sensitivity and understanding."
Good. Because I think his answer was an extremely good one.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, April 02, 2004 - 6:10 pm: | |
"But it’s still more b.s. to refer to Plato or Socrates and pretend that we understand who the sophists were or what they believed. Their works are not extant."
>>Plato makes fully adequate descriptions of them in 'Gorgias,' 'Symposium,' etc. So does Aristotle in his 'Sophistical Refutations.'
"Man is the measure of all things. Of things that are, that they are. Of things that are not, that they are not." Seems pretty clear on the main points to me. Get it straight from the 'Dialogues.'
Most of the people posting here have no idea, I think, what sophistry is, and what an extreme sort of guy you are for advocating it, Mr. Palmer. It is essentially anti-civilzation, anti-truth, anti-science, anti-everything.
Bullwinkle} |
R.J. Palmer
Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 3:21 pm: | |
"Plato makes fully adequate descriptions of them in 'Gorgias'
What incredible rot you sometimes write, my dear Radka! Thus, you prove my point. This is well worth looking into further, for it shows how eager you are to pass counterfeit bills. Clearly I do not advocate Sophistry---in fact, it would be impossible for me to do so, because, as I observed above, what Protagoras really meant is not known to us.. . Why is this?? Let me suggest the answer: because his works were censured by the very blokes you hold up to admiration and the platonists pitched his books into the fire.
The following bit of history was written by Clarence Forbes in an essay for the American Philological Society.
“The treatise of Protagoras began with the famous sentence: "Concerning the gods I am not able to know either that they do exist or that they do not exist." We should call this agnosticism, not atheism, but the Athenians were indignant, and one Pythodorus accused Protagoras... He was condemned to exile, and all copies of his book were collected by a public crier and burned in the agora. Such action in the days when a book circulated in only a very limited number of copies was thoroughly effective, and the treatise of Protagoras is still lost....”
Ahem. Mark that closely---for one of the earliest advocates of censorship was, of course, Plato himself.
I suppose it probably passed unnoticed recently when Mr. Radka opined to A.P. Wolf, that “Poetry, I think, is quite dangerous.” One should realize that this odd and extreme notion is not original to our resident philosopher; it is the brainchild of Plato. The thought comes directly from Plato’s Republic, wherein the philosopher Czar advocates that the poets and others of their ilk be exiled from the State.. (It may, in fact, have been a bit of wry self-satire by Plato, but Mr. Radka evidently takes it literally.) At any rate, to state that Plato gives an ‘adequate description” of Protagoras hides a multitude of sins.
The history of Protagoras --whoever he was--is a familiar one to history. He was exiled. He was slandered. His books were burnt. And, finally, to the victors went the spoils; “his” views were given an ‘adequate description” by his critics. Maybe, but most likely maybe not. It’s a bit like saying that James VI’s write-up of Brittish folkbeliefs in the Demonology are, afterall, extant, and we ought not worry too much that the practitioners and their beliefs were pitched onto the pyre. No doubt the argument would be that James gave us an “adequate description” of what they believed.
I, of course, do not advocate anti-anything. Mr. Radka is doing the number on me, just as Plato most likely did the number on Protagoras. Personally, I would be wary of this sort of--cough, cough--sophistry. RP
P.S. You write: “plausible explanation.” Plausible? After all the thunder and lightening ? |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 3:27 pm: | |
Ahmmm... Mr. Palmer and Mr. Bullwinkle.
Excuse me for barging in and acting police here, but what on Earth has this got to do with Daniel Olsson's article about Stride in the Ripperologist?
Maybe another thread would be more appropriate?
Just checking...
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 998
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
Well, the thread is the universe, is it not?
‘Everything connected to the thread of the universe through sound and vibration’ (Guatama… a long time ago).
I sense Natalie’s viewpoint rather than see it, and I can agree with her. The Yorkshire Ripper case was hijacked by the high moral ground the investigating male police officers occupied at the time; the victims were only whores, female, and in their eyes very much disposable waste. Only when a young ‘acceptable’ girl was murdered and hacked about did they get serious about the crimes. This is strongly reflected in the investigation into the crimes of Jack the Ripper. Prejudice against females who sold their bodies was rife, regardless of the fact that they did so for economical reason rather than the sordid desire that the investigating officers imagined.
Nobody got down and did it in the dirt of the Whitechapel gutters for fun, they did it for money because they were cold and starving.
The Metropolitan Police never quite understood that fact, for they too approached murder most foul with preconceived moralistic ambitions.
That is exactly why Jack got away with it, for he had no high moral ground but he fitted very neatly into the high moral ground of the investigating officers. He was a good old chap well known to all.
And anyway, Jack never killed Stride. She was too tall.
RJ is rocking here. Good man.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:03 pm: | |
Hi AP,
"Well, the thread is the universe, is it not?"
No. This is not a philosophical thread.
"Prejudice against females who sold their bodies was rife, regardless of the fact that they did so for economical reason rather than the sordid desire that the investigating officers imagined.
Nobody got down and did it in the dirt of the Whitechapel gutters for fun, they did it for money because they were cold and starving.
The Metropolitan Police never quite understood that fact, for they too approached murder most foul with preconceived moralistic ambitions."
And that is why it is so important to dig deep into their lives, in order to go behind those cliches that once were constructed in the past. It's rather elementary.
If we should follow Natalie's reasoning, they would continue to be cliches and "just" murder victims, we would not get any closer to their true history, but rather the opposite. It is thanks to people like Neal Shelden and others, this picture has changed for the better.
To do objective studies of their lives and about who they really were is actually to work against the old cliches and the prejudices, not the other way around.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 999
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Hey Glenn
I wasn't arguing the logic here, I just thought it would be nice to give Natalie some room to breath, as I do understand her emotional tack in this regard.
More facts the better is my motto.
But Glenn, you must always take good and kind regard of a girl's emotions and feelings.
It sort of makes the world spin around.
All the best to you too. |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:37 pm: | |
Hey AP,
I thought so, but I myself didn't understand the emotional tack. And I still don't get the point of it -- guess I never will.
"But Glenn, you must always take good and kind regard of a girl's emotions and feelings."
Well, I treat everybody the same way, man or woman. To me everybody is equal, but that gender things always makes me fly off the handle.
It doesen't matter, since I already have been accused of being a MCP anyway.
You never told me what kind of brandy you use. It's Spanish, isn't it? I'm curious. And don't hang up on me this time! 
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:48 pm: | |
Glenn
It is Safeways Spanish Brandy and if you trawl back through the site you will see that I left a full explanation for you on another thread.
I do not think you suffer from being a MCP at all. You have good and fair emotions. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2290
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
Glenn, AP's hymn of praise to SSB is on a pub thread, together with a helpful note from me regarding teabags.
Robert |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 266
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
Hey, everybody
I guess there's more than one way to save a life. One is to physically save it, which we can't do. The other is to learn about a life that would otherwise be lost. I view it as undoing some of the Ripper's work.
I can appreciate Natalie's regard for privacy, and this post isn't directed at her. I'm just thinking aloud: if you're going to look into a life, I say go in as far as you can get. Take it all, warts and everything--otherwise there's no point. Compassion is a valuable tool for a writer; I'm not sure that tact is. Dehumanization of the victims is a disservice to their memories; so are rose-colored glasses (which I don't think anybody here is doing).
I've read Daniel Olssen's article, and I believe he presents an objective yet compassionate view of Stride. Of course, he writes about Stride the prostitute with a venereal disease (that is the documentation, how can the topic be avoided?). But he also gives us the Stride who as a young girl, excelled at her religious studies, which is a contrast with what I've read of her previously, that in the 1860s she didn't know much religion.
It goes without saying that resorting to prostitution must have presented a terrible conflict for her (and the others), but Stride's religious background must have made it that much more difficult. If in the 1860s she had forgotten much of what she knew, she seems to have reached out to the church again once she was in England.
But if the seedier side of Stride's life offends, people might be interested in knowing that for a period of time, and with some help, she managed to escape that lifestyle and be struck from the register of prostitutes. According to Olssen, it was a difficult thing to accomplish.
I also found it interesting that in modern Sweden, johns and not prostitutes are prosecuted--the idea being that it's the prostitutes who are the victims. I like that law.
And when I read again of Stride's lost baby, I couldn't help but wonder if that was the genesis for her Princess Alice story.
Anyway, if you want to know someone, you take the good and the bad. And you don't judge. If that makes me a chauvanist or an MCP (I don't know what that is, and don't want to know), I guess I am.
I think Daniel has written a good piece here.
Enjoying R.J. and David's philosophical debate, although most of it is over my head.
Dave
PS
Eduardo, your tea and scandal article has hit the spot.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Hey David,
Now I really want to read that article, thanks to your very enlightening review.
"if you're going to look into a life, I say go in as far as you can get. Take it all, warts and everything--otherwise there's no point. Compassion is a valuable tool for a writer; I'm not sure that tact is. Dehumanization of the victims is a disservice to their memories; so are rose-colored glasses"
Extremely well put, David. Hats off.
Regarding that modern law you refer to, where only the the customers are prosecuted, I am afraid it's a complete disaster. It was a lame attempt by the politicians to scare off the customers and by such get rid of the street prostitution. The latest evaluations show a complete failure; although there was a clear decrease in street walking activities during the first years, the law only managed to make the situation even worse and more dangerous for the prostitutes, since they now have been forced to take home their clients or move their services to the Internet, all away from public view and therefore also now are leading an even more risky existence than they did before.
Prior to this stupid law, they were regularly under supervision of the vice squad and the social workers, now they are totally handed over to all kinds of psycho-customers that requires their services, and are totally defenseless against them.
So the result is, the prostitution activity hasn't been minimized, it has just moved elsewhere and made the situation for the women even worse than before. In fact, now they have been victimized to an even further extent than used to be the case.
And to make matters worse, from a legal point of view it is a law that is incredibly hard to follow up in practice; the police -- who already suffers from cut-downs and low budget -- now has to keep a look-out for potential customers, and if they find an incriminating situation, they have to prove that it's a sex deal going on and not just an ordinary meeting or rendez-vous, to speak frankly; they have to catch the guy with his trousers down and then prove that the woman was offered money for the service. Can anybody guess the result?
Furthermore, to be crass, a commercial sex deal is very much a business transaction between two parties, and therefore, if anybody should be prosecuted, both should, not just one of them.
So I am afraid that law is a blow in the dark and an experiment that should have stayed on paper; the initial intention to put an end to prostitution this way was a naive one. The prostitutes themselves -- who knows their own working conditions better than anyone -- strongly protested against it -- of course, no one listened to them. This law has been ridiculed all over most parts of Europe, and I can understand why.
Now, after this sociological lecture, I am really looking forward to read Daniel's article (and the other ones as well). I have ordered the issue in question.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on April 03, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 5:46 pm: | |
Thank you, AP and Robert.
AP, sorry. I never saw or found your answer but I´ll try to look it up. Finally!
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 267
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 6:40 pm: | |
Hi, Glenn
Thanks for the kind word, and for the opposite side of Sweden's prostitution law. No easy answers, are there?
Cheers,
Dave |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 7:34 pm: | |
Hi David,
No sweat. Your posts are always an enjoyable and very interesting read, and I always find it extremely easy to respect your views.
No, there are no easy answers, I'm afraid. Prostitution belongs to the oldest occupations in history, and it's mechanisms and driving forces are unfortunately rather complex.
Now I've go to find AP:s post about his beloved brandy. Cork it up!
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1453
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 7:57 pm: | |
AP and Robert,
I found the thread! Thanks; I've left an answer.
Now, sorry for being off topic here. Back to prostitution, Stride, Sweden and the Ripperologist.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on April 03, 2004)
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Natalie Severn
Chief Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 608
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 7:02 am: | |
Hi Folks and thanks for those who tried to understand what I was getting at esp. AP and David.
However its a real bummer of a subject this and there are no easy answers as David points out.
Personally I have a very deep abhorrence of anybody woman or man "having to sell their bodies".But I have no objection if thats what they WANT to do.So there is a difficulty for me in whose side I am on in what periodically in the wider world becomes a very heated debate.[Andrea Dworkin believing that prostitution and pornography to be inherently oppressive-part of the culture of subordination which objectified and degraded women.Others such as the US Prostitutes collective and Cindy Patton of the
Lesbian publication "Bad Attitude" argued [like AP did so kindly for me above]"to give women space totalk about their sexuality and develop a language,not to impose one".
I guess I really agree with the latter-though as I said I get up tight at the idea that people are driven to sell their bodies or parts of their bodies because of poverty.
Certainly I stand by the view put forward by the
Women"s Movement that History is all too often "his" story rather than "Hers" and therefore Glenn when we talk about Historical accuracy and "objectivity" for example we need to be careful to note who is the scribe.And take account of it in our discussions about the past.
However ,thankfully we have Chris Scott and his quest for the facts as recorded on census information which is as accurate a record as we"ll get[and others who have contributed to these records ofcourse].
I will leave it there I think-it IS a contentious subject with no easy answers and I don"t really want to fall out with Glenn or any one else over it.
Best Wishes Natalie.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 7:59 am: | |
Don't worry, Natalie.
As you know I agree with many of your posts in general. It is just that during my university years, the gender perspective was thrown in my face too often, and distorted the information in a way that I couldn't accept. As I believe we are all equal, I think it's equally wrong to consider a sole female perspective as opposed to a strict male one.
You are absolutely right, that history has always been male in its approach, which I think is a real shame. but I think that has changed dramatically during the last ten years -- thanks to, that's right, research. Today I feel the approach is more objective and women more taken into account, while they were totally disregarded earlier.
Women in history is -- to my own great joy -- very much more acknowledged these days and recognized. Actually some of my favourite painters through art history happens to be female and their lives and work wasn't subjected to serious studies until the 1980s, but now they thanks to these new developments have gained the reputation they deserve, even if it unfortunately is in retrospect.
Therefore I think it is incredibly important to dig into all the aspects and the detailed personalia, the positive as well as the uncomfortable ones -- one of the reasons why women have been so badly portrayed in the past, is because we have lacked the efforts of people like Neal Shelden or Daniel Olsson. That kind of research is of vast importance in order to get behind the facade of the questionable and poorly done historical research done in the past -- what lies behind there may not always be pretty, but it will help us to understand the women and their social context better. If we refuse to tell their story in full, then we victimize and minimize them instead of trying to acknowledge them.
All the best
Glenn Gustaf Lauritz Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
B.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 7:07 pm: | |
The reason why JtR murdered prostitutes was because they were available. The murder series has nothing to do with a dislike of protitution on his part.
B.
|
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
