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Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 502
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 12:15 pm: |       |
Hi everyone,
We have never discussed , why the ripper killed at certain times, and why those times.
Nicols killed approx 330am
Chapman approx 530 am.
Stride approx 1am
Eddowes approx 145am
Kelly. 245am-930am.?
And including Tabram 2am-3am.
The first point to notice is that Stride, was by far the earliest, which could imply that she may not have been a victim of Jack.
Tabram ,and Eddowes are of a similar time, if we take nearer to 2am as likely, she was not there at 1.50am.[ that is Tabram]
Kelly , and Nichols are similar in time, if we take that kelly was murdered around 3am.
The odd one out is surely Chapman at 53Oam.
I was of the opinion, that non market pubs closed at 1am, and I would have thought the vast amount of prostitution, occured leading up to closing time , or shortly after, and most ladies of the night would have finished business for the night, by 2am.
The killer could have moved on Tabram, after she finished business , with another client near 2am,
It is also possible that he could have moved on Stride at 1am, just before the pubs emptied. also was on the lookout for another victim at 115am -130am, when he encountered Eddowes.
But I feel what was he doing out patroling the district at 315am , when he proberly spotted Nichols, also 23Oam when he encountered Kelly, and even more strange at 515am when he encountered Chapman, for as I said earlier, I Would have thought most prostitutes would have called it a night by 2am, surely he could have had his choice of possible victims any night between 1am -2am.
So what was he doing patroling Brady street, at 315am , was he on his way home when he spotted nichols?
what was he doing in Commercial street at 230am[ if Hutchinsons guy was her killer?]
And most strange of all . What was he doing out and about in Hanbury street at 5am .
It appears to me that the killer, had his own private accomodation,and he was free to leave and return unnoticed.
I feel that Chapman was a specific target, there is some evidence that this may be the case.
If I Remember a letter , claiming to be from the killer, stated' I found the woman that I was after , that is chapman'.
To sum up I feel that Tabram, Stride, and eddowes, may have been random killings, but Nichols, Chapman , and kelly specific targets.
Richard.
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Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 209
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 12:26 pm: | |
Nichols and Chapman had been turned away from doss houses because the people there wanted their money up front. Kelly's rent money was due the next day. Could he have been thinking that the hours after 2AM would be when he would encounter the most desperate? |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 504
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 12:38 pm: | |
Hi Diana.
I accept that Nichols, chapman, and kelly, were desperate, but I still maintain that he could have found suitable victims any night between 1230am -130am, so why walk the streets throughout the night?.
Richard. |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 210
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 12:46 pm: | |
Maybe this tells us something about him. Maybe he was dirty, unkempt and dangerous looking, and he had to wait until only the most desperate were left to go with him. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 505
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 1:39 pm: | |
Hi Diana,
I know I should not think this way, because of Leanne, and myself forthcoming book, but already a good point has been raised on this thread, Dirty , unkempt, and dangerous looking, would that not apply to a character such as Kosminski?.
Richard. |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Whatho all,
I think the timings are quite simple. Jack did his "work" when it was dark and quiet. He would hardly try to kill someone in Mitre Square on a Tuesday afternoon.
Cheers, Mark |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 211
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 3:49 pm: | |
1 AM would be just as dark as two. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 644
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
You are all running with the premise that Jack would have been some unkempt creature, operating from some lonely little bed-sit, where nobody noticed his comings and goings, but if you care to pop over to the poetry thread I am building a scenario - not quite plausible yet I admit because of the humour required, but what happens when you strip away the humour? - where Jack could have been perfectly operating as a normal well kept individual within a fairly normal household but still going out on the streets at unsocial hours to catch his rabbits.
Snares are to be avoided.
|
Erin Sigler
Inspector
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 179
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 5:27 pm: | |
Excellent point, Diana, I hadn't considered that as a possibility. Although it may seem otherwise, I think that this view of Jack and A.P.'s can be reconciled. Perhaps at night the thin facade of semi-respectable sanity Jack was able to maintain (at least for a time) during the day simply collapsed under its own weight, and eventually consumed him altogether. Some people are for years (even decades) able to maintain a "mask of sanity" until the effort required to do so simply overwhelms them. |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1025
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 3:32 am: | |
G'day,
The Ripper would have increased his chances of being caught-in-the-act if he had have stuck to a specific time slot.
Elizabeth Stride's murder stands out to me as being early, but why must we jump to the wild conclusion that there were two evil minds in the same neighbourhood at that same time? Why not just consider that the circumstances were different? You're into odds Richard! What are the chances of her being killed by another lunatic?
I believe it was the Ripper who killed her, but he wasn't out trolling at the time. The nearby club was still in full-swing...or sing! He wasn't armed with his usual knife at that stage, so he was forced to either use her knife or the first knife he found.
DIANA: I don't believe he was dirty, unkempt and dangerous looking. Everybody was on the lookout for and suspected anyone that looked odd. I believe he had to look like someone they could trust with their lives.
LEANNE |
Frank van Oploo
Detective Sergeant
Username: Franko
Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 10:55 am: | |
Hi Leanne,
On a minor note perhaps, but as far as I know, from the crime scene and the wound itself it could not be determined what knife was used, so it isn't clear if the Ripper - if it was him - used his usual one or not.
Frank |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 517
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 3:37 pm: | |
Hi Frank, Leanne, et al.:
I think it probable that in the Stride killing the weapon used was the same or a similar knife that the killer used to cut the throats of the other canonical victims. It's just that with Stride he was not able to perform the abdominal mutilations he did on the other victims that would have shown that in making such cuts he was using a long knife. So the statement that the knife used in the Stride case was "different" is somewhat misleading--the majority of the cuts (i.e., abdominal in the case of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly) weren't the same as in the Stride murder.
By the way, in terms of pub closing times, the late A. M. Phypers (Viper) in his dissertation on "The House Where Jack Swilled? An Investigation Of Pubs, Beer & The Ripper" states in regard to the Crown public house, 74 Mile End Road, where in 1888 the licensee was Joseph Aarons, Treasurer of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee:
"From the 11th September [1888] the Committee met nightly at an upstairs room in the pub with a view to discussing developments about the case, collecting new information from the public and after the pub closed at 12:30, operating street patrols[my emphasis]."
My point is that both Jack and the Vigilance Committee members likely knew that any time after 12:30 a.m., when the pubs closed, was a likely "murdering time."
All the best
Chris |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 5:00 am: | |
G'day Chris,
Do you think that the knife found on the bottom step of 'Mr. Christmas' Laundry' 24 hours after Stride's murder, was the one that killed her? If so, why did he throw it away? (Maybe this deserves it's own message board?)
The 'Crown' public house probably closed it's doors at 12:30, because its owner was the Treasurer of the Committee. It's interesting that the 11th of September was the date they began collecting information from the public.
Remember 'The Queen's head' public house was still open at 2:00a.m., when george Hutchinson was waiting for Mary Kelly in November. It was also rumoured that Annie Chapman had been drinking at the 'Ten Bells', near Spitalfields Market, at 5:00a.m. on the morning of her murder.
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 524
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 7:08 am: | |
Hi Leanne:
Yes, as you say, the closing times and hours of operation of the pubs varied. As Richard indicated in opening this thread, market pubs appear to have had different hours to other pubs not in market areas. Therefore, as you note, the 'Ten Bells', near Spitalfields Market, was open at 5:00 a.m. on the morning of the Chapman murder, so that Annie was able to drink there on the morning she was murdered.
In regard to the long knife found on the laundry steps, yes, possibly this was connected to the murders, although the doctors who examined Stride, Blackwell and Phillips, didn't think it was the right type of knife. It was a slicing knife used in a joiner's shop and not the sharp pointed weapon they felt had been used by the killer (Wilson and Odell, Jack the Ripper: Summing Up and Verdict, p. 38).
The knife on the laundry steps was found about 12:30 a.m. on Monday morning, a full 24 hours after Stride's murder. The laundry was at 252 Whitechapel Road, on the south side of the street, near Great Garden Street, and the knife was found by Joseph Coram, a coconut warehouse employee, who was walking west from Brady Street toward Aldgate. He gave the knife to P.C. Joseph Drage, 282H.
The location where the knife was found is around a quarter mile directly north of Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street, and a half mile east of Mitre Square. Thus it was conceivably on the route of the murderer from the Stride killing to the location of the Eddowes murder. The fact that a bloody handkerchief was found wrapped round the blade of the knife and the knife itself was "smothered in [dried] blood" is suspicious, but the testimony of the medical experts appears to rule it out, and its discovery on a busy thoroughfare a day later seems highly suspicious. It surely would have been noticed earlier if it had been there, and in fact P.C. Drage said he had passed the spot "a quarter of an hour earlier" and had not noticed it there. (See Evans and Skinner, The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion, pp. 156-157).
The finding of the knife appears either to be a queer coincidence or possibly a hoax. If we think Jack might have been a trickster, he could have placed it there, but doing so would have put him at further risk, and for what purpose? He had made a much more emphatic statement with the two murders a day earlier.
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on December 31, 2003) |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1028
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 7:43 am: | |
G'day Chris,
P.C. Drage testified at Elizabeth Stride's inquest after Thomas Coram, and he told of an insident in which a horse fell down opposite the place where the knife was found. He assisted in getting the horse up and said that: 'during that time a person might have laid the knife down on the step.' Doesn't that 'sound' strange to you? how often do horses fall down? Maybe someone caused the horse to fall in order to draw attention away from Mr. Christmas' doorstep?
Why Mr. Christmas? Was he Jewish? Or anyone who worked there? Was it found in a heavily Jewish populated area?
LEANNE |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 215
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 8:39 am: | |
Does anyone else see the parallel between the bloody apron of Goulston Street found sometime later than someone would expect it to be found and the bloody knife on the laundry steps found 24 hours after the killing? Have we found another piece of signature? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1712
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 9:29 am: | |
Leanne, I meant to mention this when you were asking questions about Buller's and about lodging-house arrangements. The PC said that about an hour before, the landlady let out a woman. I don't know whether this can tell us anything about lodging-house arrangements.
PS I dare say cunning old Joe dazzled the horse with a laser!
Robert |
Donald Souden
Detective Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 92
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 1:27 pm: | |
Leanne,
From what I've gleaned from books and oral histories, a horse falling in the street was not at all uncommon. Many of them were over-worked and under-nourished and the result would be a fall (collapse might be a better description). And, just as with a broken-down car today in an urban center, a horse in the road would tie up traffic badly and everyone would try to get the poor beast back on his feet as quickly as possible.
It would also seem to have provided a bit of cheap entertainment, which may be why such reminiscences occur so frequently in oral histories.
As for the suggestion of P.C. Drage, it sounds rather like a "cover my butt" statement. You know, he wanted it understood he was careful to note everything on his beat and didn't miss the knife earlier so he threw out the idea it had happened while he was busy with the fallen horse.
As with so much of the JtR material -- maybe.
Don. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1715
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
There's a fallen horse incident in "Crime and Punishment" that I can't bear to read.
I don't think you can make anything of the horse, Leanne.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1031
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 3:56 pm: | |
G'day Robert,
OK, let's turn a blind eye to the fallen horse incident! Like the incident that came out of Stride's inquest about Kidney having suspicions about the killer! Let's put it all down to coincidence! What's all this got to do with Buller's???
The woman that the landlady let out must have dropped that blood-stained knife, or it fell out of clothes she left at the laundry!
DIANA: Yes I see the parallel!
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 6:06 pm: | |
Hi, Leanne and Diana et al.:
As noted by Robert and Donald, in those days of horsedrawn transportation, a fallen horse would not have been unusual. As Donald said, a horse down would be a traffic hazard and would have to be cleared.
Incidentally, as I mentioned in an article in Ripperologist, the furrier Martin Kosminski, a possible relative of Aaron Kosminski, invented a contraption to help fallen horses out of their traces. He demonstrated his contraption to Baroness Angela Burdett-Coutts and the Archbishop of Canterbury. The occasion is recorded in the Jewish Chronicle of 18 October 1878: "Mr. Martin Kosminski has invented an apparatus for releasing a horse after it has fallen, or liberating it from a vehicle if it should take fright. By request, Mr. Kosminski exhibited his invention last week to Baroness Burdett-Coutts and the Archbishop of Canterbury, both of whom approved, and expressed their thanks to the inventor."
I don't see any particular significance in the downed horse incident except that it gave P.C. Drage an opportunity to prove he was in the area and to proffer a possible scenario for when the knife might have been left on the step, bolstering his claim that he had not seen the knife there previously.
Yes this might have been something left by the killer, similar to the apron and graffito (if he wrote the latter). But note that there was no written message this time, and as I said before why would he do it? To heighten the tension in the area? No need for that, however, when he had successfully frightened the bejesus out of London 24 hours earlier with two murders; fears in the neighborhood could not higher. The hand of a prankster seems more likely.
Best regards
Chris George |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 6:19 pm: | |
G'day,
OK, forget the deliberate action of causing the horse to fall! But could someone who wanted to disgard that knife somewhere, anywhere, have blessed such an incident happening at that time?
There were no written messages, but if the knife thrower had have stopped to write a message, he would have definately been caught! Anyway, it isn't a proven fact that the Ripper wrote the Goulston Street grafitti!
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 526
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 7:22 pm: | |
Knife thrower, Leanne?  |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 1:14 am: | |
G'day Chris,
You ask 'Why would he do it? to heighten the tension in the area?'. Then we must ask ourselves: 'Why would he bother to write the grafitti?' He had to leave the apron and the useless knife & handkerchief somewhere, if he didn't want his people to find it in his home.
It was left or fell on the steps of a laundry. Is there any significance in that? Could he have been trying to wash his own clothes?
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 531
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Did the killer write the graffito, though?
Why would a knife that was not the murder weapon be bloody?
Leaving aside the possibility that the graffito was written by the murderer, isn't it more likely that a prankster was at work in leaving the bloody knife on the laundry steps at 252 Whitechapel Road, just like the probable many people who wrote prank letters (sorry Ms. Cornwell!) and who claimed to be the killer?
All my best
Chris  |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 4:04 pm: | |
G'day Chris,
If finding a bloodstained knife in the street was so normal, why was Coram invited to appear at Stride's inquest? I think it was more common to find graffiti in the area, yet look how many people believe that Jack bothered to write that!
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 4:10 pm: | |
G'day,
Was the actual knife bloodstained, or the handkercheif that was wrapped around it? How does a metal blade get stained? If it was Stride's knife, it just had to be on her person to get bloodstains on it, and the Ripper could have picked it up when he fled.
LEANNE |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 534
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 11:24 am: | |
Hi Leanne:
The testimony from P.C. Drage states that the the knife itself was "smothered in [dried] blood" as well as the handkerchief being soaked in blood. No doubt Coram was called to testify about the knife because it was a suspicious circumstance, but surely whether the handkerchief and knife were left there by the killer or a prankster remains an open question.
Nobody is saying that the finding of bloody knives in Whitechapel was exactly commonplace. It seems that the sending of hoax letters was fairly common, though, so why not the dropping of a bloody knife by a troublemaker out to cause a stir? 
Of course, we may never know who left the bloody knife on the laundry steps. I just think that the circumstances in which the knife was found, 24 hours after Stride's murders, the type of knife it was, etc., are all against it having been left by the killer. Also it could easily have been animal blood not human blood.
All the best
Chris
|
Liz Green
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 11:07 am: | |
Hello to everyone
I am fairly new to the message board although I have been reading up on 'Jack' for several years, the knowledge of people here is just astounding and I have been very wary of posting anything, but I just wanted to comment on some of the points brought up in this thread.
I was born and bred in yorkshire and as a young girl lived in fear of Jack's namesake 'The Yorkshire Ripper' who murdred in my own hometown.
To my mind the Yorkshire ripper's crimes were very similar to Jack's.
Peter Sutcliffe was eventually charged with the yorkshire ripper murders, but I came across a website recently which made my blood run cold and I think if any JTR researchers haven't seen it yet it would be quite interesting, it explores the possibility in great depth that there were two yorkshire rippers operating in the same area at the same time, and that ones crimes were attributed to the other even though they did not correctly fit the M.O., It certainly made me also think if the Whitechapel murders as a whole ( Tabram, castle Alley murder etc.) were commited by two people, one set of murders by JTR, the others all by another hand which were previously thought to be domestic or 'one off' murders.
There are also personality profiles for the two different killers,neither of them were lonely, dirty unkempt creatures, both had friends, family, workmates and one even had a wife, they both appeared to have a fairly normal existance.
here is the address; www.theyorkshireripper.co.uk, if that doesn't work try it without 'the' in the address.
Hope someone gets my point!
Liz |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
Hi all; Perhaps Jack just had a bad effect on horses, such as in Dutfield's yard. A horse could easily slip on the wet cobblestones and have a hard time getting up with all the harnesses etc.
However, of more interest to me is that the knife was wrapped in a hanky twisted around with some string wrapped around it. This would help give some grip to the knife when it became wet with blood. The piece of apron found was the corner with the string attached, which could have been used for the same purpose. The coroners noted that the knife had once been very sharp, but had been dulled by rubbing against a stone (or perhaps the pavement). These days with fingerprinting, you would use the same method to prevent prints getting on the knife handle.
Some autopsy knives are actually blunt on the end but very very sharp nonetheless.
Was this another way that Jack was taunting the police by leaving the knife in plain view with people about?
Darn it Robert Charles, I will now have to dig out my copy of Crime and Punishment to look that up!
Happy New Year everyone.
Joan
|
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 5:18 pm: | |
G'day Joan,
Fingerprinting wasn't even thought of in 1888. I'd say the handkercheif was wrapped around the knife as it once belonged to someone who keep it concealed for protection purposes, in their dress or somewhere. The string was tied to handle, not the blade, so the blade could be exposed on demand and used to threaten an attacker. Prostitutes were arming themselves with knives at that time, you know!
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 5:46 pm: | |
Hi Joan
I think it's in Part One Chapter Five.
Robert |
RipperHistorian
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 3:46 am: | |
I would say that the reason for the differences in timing is simple. JTR had to stalk his victims and he only struck at a time when it was perfectly convenient for him to do his thing and get away unseen.
Some nights this might have taken quite a bit of stalking, with several "almost victims" and interruptions from other "johns" and some nights he found a convenient victim right away (ie Eddows and Stride).
It was all a matter of hunting. Just like hunting a deer, it would be nice to always get one in the first five minutes, but that never happens.
Think of how many women were probably "almost" victims of JTR but were rescued because somebody else happened to walk down the street when JTR was approaching.
Tim |
Neal Shelden
Inspector
Username: Neal
Post Number: 153
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
Martin Kosminski.
A book called "The Jewish Victorian, Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871-1880, by Doreen Berger" includes the piece about Martin Kosminski's invention. As posted above by Chris on the 31st Dec 2003.
Also, in the book is the following piece:
Sarah Kosminski death 24.3.1878 at 5 Spital Street, Mile End New Town (beloved mother of Martin Kosminski) aged 73.
Neal
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