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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2315
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:16 am: | 
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Hi Jenni,
Caz, come on now - lets not use that certain word.
Which word?
Love,
Caz
X |
Ian Findlay
Police Constable
Username: Ifindlay
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:17 pm: |
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Dear all,
Melissa is more or less right. Hair follicles are much better than just the cut hair.
However DNA, not just mito, can be obtained from hair - bits from dandruff etc.
Whilst DNA (both nuclear and mito) does degrade with time, there are a number of examples where old samples have given DNA fingerprint. However large samples are need or mito is used. We are all aware of the very significant limitations of mito.
Yes, the apron would be good to test if someone has it.
Ian |
Ian Findlay
Sergeant
Username: Ifindlay
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:20 pm: |
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ELIZABETH STRIDE - VICTIM
Does anyone have any samples/hair etc from Elizabeth Stride?
I have contact with a known close relative of Strides who would be pleased to provide samples for comparison purposes.
Ian |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 867
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:28 am: |
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By all means, Ian, collect as many familial samples as you can, even if there is no case evidence to go with them. We don't know when case evidence may turn up in the future, and these people may not always be here, or may not always be willing. |
Spiro
Sergeant
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 23
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 9:59 am: |
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Good point Diana on building a DNA database for the benefit of future generations. I think Stephen also mentioned the long-term value of Ian's work on maintaining a record of samples and results.
Ian,
I wonder what you would make of the samples recently mentioned by author Tony Williams in his book "Uncle Jack". From what I understand, microscope slides and a bloodied knife or scalpel were promoted in the media as samples to test for DNA in the hunt for their Ripper suspect and relative, Dr John Williams. Not sure of all the details as I haven't read his book. |
Ian Findlay
Sergeant
Username: Ifindlay
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
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Spiro,
As mentioned, if we can build some sort of database now , who knows what samples may come to light now or in the future.
The samples you mention such as slides and knives would be ideal - if they exist. Its possibly to isolate cells even from mixed or contaminated samples. In fact I was isolating sperm cells from mixed slides (from a murder rape case) just yesterday!
I don't know anything re Dr John Willams. Is he a viable suspect and do such samples exist?
Ian |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3194
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
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Spiro
that is an intersting point. Lol.
Don't lets get me started on that one though, there arent enough hours in the day!!
Jenni
ps no he is definately not a viable suspect, he is indeed the opposite to that
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my mamma taught me better than that."
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 999
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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Hi Ian,
I'm afraid the problem here is that samples are going to be extremely difficult if not possible to come by. They just didn't preserve physical evidence in the case this long.
For example, the hair alleged to be from Catherine Eddowes was part of a collection of other items, some of which were obviously fake (modern reprints of old newspapers). There's nothing to link the hair to Eddowes at all, other than the word of a source that is obviously unreliable.
As we've discussed with the Cornwell book with hee alleged mitochondrial DNA similarities, the letters have been handled by all sorts of people, and even if you could find DNA on a stamp it wouldn't have necessarily been that of the person who wrote the letter, who wouldn't likely have anything to do with the murders at all.
Sir John Williams is not considered to be a viable suspect. He was promoted as the Ripper in a book that cited sources that were altered and/or untraceable. Slides of tissue samples and a surgical knife of his exist, but there's no reason to think they had anything to do with the Ripper killings. He was an eminent doctor, the tissue samples could have been from any one of his patients. If you were interested in tracking down samples related to extremely unlikely Ripper suspects, I might suggest Lewis Carroll, Prince Eddy and other more famous people who might possibly have something still around. Not that it would accomplish much of anything.
I know the news media goes wild whenever it hears about DNA testing related to famous cases, but I really can't see any hope for any of it. There's unfortunately just nothing solidly linked to the victims or murders to do anything with. It's a shame that the Lusk letter and accompanying piece of kidney disappeared, because then at least you might be able to tell if the body part was really from Eddowes or not.
Of course, to get a little ghoulish, most of the canonical Ripper victim gravesites are known, approximately. I don't know if there'd be anything on the bodies to test, not that you're likely to get permission to do so, but that seems like the only guaranteed link one could make to the actual crimes. Of course then the question becomes what you'd test those samples against, but if your goal is to just hold onto the results until there is something that'd be ideal.
And if you want to do a complete investigation instead of just the most famous connections, remember that there are a number of other victims of murders in that time period that may or may not be by the same killer as the others. Any serious effort should consider the non-canonical victims as well... but, again, not much to go on there. One body (the woman in the Pinchin Street torso case) was actually preserved in spirits in a metal container. I'm not sure what that would do after this length of time, assuming it could be located and was intact (a determined searcher could possibly turn it up with a metal detector in the cemetery), but then her case is also one of the ones least commonly believed to be linked to the Ripper.
The Ripper case is certainly a huge mess for trying to get anywhere on physical evidence.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Melissa Turcios
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 2:13 am: |
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Ian, I didn't see that you'd already answered Bob Hinton's question. Sorry. ^_^;;. I know, I'm a spoilsport.
Oh, and I DO see the value of collecting the data and disproving the hoaxes. Closer and closer to that elusive truth... (OT: ...but seriously, does anyone have any ideas about the apron?)
- Melissa |
Ken Proctor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Gizmo
Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Hello Melissa, I have long been a proponent that the piece of Kates apron was used as a bandage by Jack for a serious or superficial cut sustained by him during his "dissection". I have several times in the past while field dressing an animal, cut my free hand that i use to feel my way around internally. This like Jack was done in conditions of low light and notwithstanding my familiarity with the anatomy of the subject. 
" Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. Don't put up with people who are reckless wih yours." Baz Luhrman
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Lindsey C Hollifield
Chief Inspector
Username: Lindsey
Post Number: 602
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
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Hi everyone,
I tried to post a link to this report from ICLanarkshire.co.ok, but it was way too big.. so I'm copy & pasting the most relevant parts of the text.
Lyn
--------------------------------------------------
Scientist’s quest to solve Ripper case
By Emily Henderson
A SCIENTIST from Blantyre is playing a key part in solving one of the world’s most famous mysteries ... the identity of serial killer Jack the Ripper.
Last week, Professor Ian Findlay (39), who grew up in Station Road, and now works in Australia, was in London to test traces of saliva on stamps attached to letters sent to police at the time they were trying to catch the notorious murderer.
Ian has developed DNA identification technology called Cell-Track ID at Brisbane forensic laboratory, Gribbles Molecular Science, which can extract and compile a DNA fingerprint from a single cell or strand of hair up to 160 years old. This could potentially help shed light on who was behind the gory deaths of five prostitutes in the Whitechapel area of London in 1888.
When the saliva samples are tested back in Australia, they will then be compared to DNA from the descendants of Ripper suspects.
“As a youngster growing up in Blantyre I always wanted to be a police scientist, and today I’m working on one of the world’s biggest murder mysteries,” he said.
“The Ripper case is huge, and one mention of it in Australia landed me on the front pages of some of the daily newspapers there!”
The former pupil of Blantyre High and graduate of Glasgow University is based at Griffith University in Queensland, and will also be testing a hair believed to have come from Catherine Eddowes, one of the Ripper’s victims, sent by a private collector to see if it is genuine.
“It will take until mid-January for the test results to come through and we hope members of the public who may have other items relating to Jack the Ripper, such as the famous letter thought to have contained a piece of kidney from one of the his victims, will come forward,“ continued Ian.
Much of Ian’s career has been spent studying genetic identification and analysis, and in 1994 he was the first scientist in the world to perform DNA fingerprinting on a single cell. This technique is currently being used for DNA fingerprinting single cells found at crime scenes, flakes of dandruff from ransom notes, and single sperm in rape cases.
Ian was also named Scientist of the Year by the European Society of Human Genetics in 1998 and has been published over 50 times in medical and scientific journals.
He added: “ The Ripper case is very famous and has always fascinated people, so it’s amazing to think we could really be changing history here.”
--------------------------------------------------
-- Thanks to Larry Barbee for sending the link to me.
My first reaction is, "OMG that's crazy". But then I'm thinking this just may be crazy enough to work.
copyright © Bradley McGinnis Sept. 2005
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 684
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 23, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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"they will then be compared to DNA from the descendants of Ripper suspects."
Besides the Maybrickians, who else is out there to be tested ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 3375
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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Royal people,
lol
Jenni
ps five words rule
"Yo, don't believe the hype"
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Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 2:17 pm: |
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Does anyone have any samples/hair etc from Elizabeth Stride?
I have contact with a known close relative of Strides who would be pleased to provide samples for comparison purposes.
I know this is a controversial subject but I believe that it is physically possible to exhume Stride's grave. Whether it is legally possible is another question but from brief glances at British Law on the subject I believe it might be.
Stride is buried at East London Cemetery. Her grave is marked not only by a headstone but it is also outlined in cement. The cement "frame" suggests a more or less exact burial site rather than an approximation. There is no other marked grave to the right of Stride's. In fact there is an unpaved access pathway to the right which would provide access for excavation equipment without disturbing other marked graves.
It is debatable whether any remains could be recovered but it is at least possible. Whether this would justify exhumation is a matter of question. Incidentally, I would not limit the value of exhumation to the acquisition of DNA.
Check this thread ../4921/7566.html"#DEDDCE"> |
Stanley D. Reid
Chief Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 720
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 4:46 pm: |
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Hi all,
Well, it's 2006. What was the solution? I guess I must have missed it.
Stan |
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