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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 809
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 9:25 pm: | 
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It has been noticed that Jack seemed to do his killing at the extreme end of the month or the first 9 days of the following month.
Prostitutes cost money. Going to the local pub to pick them up costs money too. If Jack was not terribly well heeled he would have lived payday to payday. If he was paid at the end of the month then he would only have the cash he needed for a week or 10 days and then he would have to barely exist till the next payday.
Was it common to pay people monthly in Whitechapel in 1888? If not, we are at an advantage. What kind of jobs would be paid monthly?
I'm not being dogmatic about this but I think it is a possibility that deserves investigation. |
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 28
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
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Diana,
I appreciate that you are trying to find a pattern but Jack didn't have to go to a pub to pick up prostitutes. He could have picked them up on the street. Prostitutes, such as the victims, were cheap and besides Jack only needed money to secure the deal. Once he killed them, he could always take his money back.
c.d. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 810
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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Ok, no pub. But he still had to (temporarily) give them money. If they led him to a spot that wasn't safe he would lose it. As to their being cheap thats all relative to what your income is. |
c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
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Hi Diana,
If they led him to a place that wasn't safe...
That brings up a very interesting question. What would Jack have done in such a case? Once the murders started, I would expect any prostitute to be very suspicious of a suggestion to move to a different location. I would also expect that it would be quite unusual for a customer "to change his mind." That is a story that the women might share with each other along with a description of the reluctant customer. I suppose he could have just gone ahead and had sex with them so as not to arouse their suspcions. We do know that he was willing to take risks but we have to wonder if there was ever a time when his desire for self preservation was stronger than his desire to kill.
c.d. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 143
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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All,
Y'know...maybe Jack DID have to pick up prostitutes in a pub, or at least in the vicinity. Perhaps he knew that besotted whores would be easier to work with. His victims at least, appeared to be all drinkers. Would they not hang about the pubs hoping that their John would buy 'the lovely lady a drink'?
That brings up a pub question? Did they close at midnight, or thereabouts? I know in Ireland they never stay open past midnight, but in many towns, you can stay and drink as late as you want, and the gardai don't seem to mind. The pub is officially closed, meaning the outside lights are off and the doors are locked. New customers can't come in, and once a customer leaves he/she can't return. I wonder if Whitechapel was similar.
I will do some research
Cheers,
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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N, Beresford
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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Baron von,
I think there were no lisensing laws at the time and there were talks about bringing them in - fors and againsts etc..
Regards, N. |
2gg8hx
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 1:30 pm: |
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Mike,
It is certainly possible that Jack picked up prostitutes in a pub but I see no reason for him doing so. Prostitutes were readily available on the streets and I would think it would occur to him that if he did attempt to meet a woman in a pub that someone might remember him talking to the victim. I would expect that the police would have questioned the patrons of the pubs nearest the murder sites to see if anyone had noticed the victim drinking with a particular customer.
So, in short, although it is possible, since it wasn't necessary and could be dangerous for him, I have my doubts as to whether he found his victims in this manner.
c.d. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2174
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:42 am: |
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Hi Mike,
I imagine lock-ins would have taken place in Whitechapel pubs back then. But the landlord would probably only have entertained a limited number of regulars he thought he could trust after hours.
I'm not sure a small and intimate gathering of late drinkers would have been conducive to Jack's preliminaries however. He could hardly have risked being seen here grooming a woman who, if he had his wicked way, would be found murdered and mutilated a short time later.
Hi Diana,
That's an interesting question. If Jack had to travel to the area where his kind of victim could be found in abundance, he'd have travel costs to think about too. And he may have needed to replace blood-stained items of clothing.
I would imagine the working class all got paid daily or weekly, and that if anyone got paid monthly it would have been the middle classes. Hope someone else can put us straight.
It does seem possible that Jack didn't have the freedom to prowl the streets any night of the week, any day of the month. Perhaps we could try and pin down the most likely reasons why that would be.
I agree (with AP, I think) that not many people living and working there would have had a day off or a weekend break. But if Jack had to commute to where the 'work' was, anything goes.
Love,
Caz
X
PS Just seen the above two posts. I may be totally wrong about those lock-ins, if licensing hours came in later. Now I come to think of it, were drinking hours restricted at the time of World War I?
(Message edited by caz on October 13, 2005) |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1929
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 7:52 am: |
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Diana,
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 11:11 am:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris,
A valid point and one I agree on.
However, if he was unemployed then why attack only at weekends and bank holidays? Why not a Tuesday or Wednesday?
Maybe these are the only known attacks or maybe Jack has his own timetable.
Traditionally the weekend and bank holiday has been (and still is) a time for the working class to relax and drink, to enjoy themselves. Ease the stresses of the week. It may also be a time for part time prostitutes, girls who earn a meagre living to 'top up' their earnings at the weekends, yes Im thinking Eddowes here..but thats for another thread. What Im trying to say is that there would have been an increase in victim opportunity.
Just a few right or wrong ideas that Im playing about with.
Another question from Monty. Was there a set payday or did it vary from industy to industry, job to job? The reason I ask is that maybe our boy waited till pay day or there abouts before comitting a murder. The lure so to speak.
Is that a valid idea?
Cheers,
Monty
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Of course this land is dangerous!
All of the animals are capably murderous
You see....I post a question....nothing.
You post a question.....loads of replies.
Im off to sulk.
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 825
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:19 am: |
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In answer to the question above, no, there were no licensing laws in 1888. Most pubs would shut their doors sometime between midnight and one. They wouldn't stay open much later because they opened early, usually around five or five thirty on market days in order to cater to the market traffic. This was regular custom and so very important to them. Therefore I would imagine "lock-ins" were a rarity as the pub owners would be only too glad to get everyone out.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me" - Hunter S. Thompson (1939-2005)
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1930
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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Alan,
Firstly, were the hell have you been?
Secondly, get a bloody haircut and a shave you hippie.
Thirdly, what do you make of this....
......Daily News
United Kingdom
5 October 1888
STREET LIGHTING IN THE EAST END
“Resolved, that this Board regards with horror and alarm the several atrocious murders recently perpetrated within the district of Whitechapel and its vicinity, and calls upon Sir Charles Warren so to regulate and strengthen the police force in the neighbourhood as to guard against any repetition of such atrocities.”
“Go to,” adroitly replies Sir Charles Warren. “Look to your lamps. The purlieus about Whitechapel are very imperfectly lighted, and the darkness is an important assistant to crime.” There can be no doubt in the mind of anybody who knows the purlieus of Whitechapel that the Commissioner has fairly scored one against the Whitechapel District Board of Works. “You are decidedly of opinion, then,” was a question addressed to Chief Inspector West, “that if your division were generally better lighted it would tend materially to render many forms of crime more difficult and the capture of criminals more easy?” “Most certainly,” was the ready rejoinder. “Look even at this Commercial street. It has always appeared to me to be very insufficiently lighted - a broad and important thoroughfare like this. It is none too brilliant now. Lying just off it there are some of the lowest of lodging houses, and you can see how easy it must be for rough characters to snatch from the persons passing along and rush off into their dens in the darkness with very little chance of their being identified or followed. But wait until the few shops are closed, and the public house lights are put out, and see then how wretchedly the street is lighted, and what opportunities there are for all sorts of mischief to go on.”
Looking up this main thoroughfare it is impossible to deny that there is much force in what the officer says, and turning into the minor streets and lanes in the neighbourhood the opportunities afforded by the murky condition of the streets for the perpetration of crimes of violence are very apparent. Put out the public house lamps at twelve o’clock, and shut up one or two little shops, and you have - for instance, in Fleur de Lys street - a dismal little lane suggestive of almost anything bad. Obscure thoroughfares like Elder street, Quaker street, Blossom street are all of them open to the same criticism, and a very little exploration will convince anybody that that in most of them there are deeper depths of gloom, affording really startling facilities for vice and crime.
It seems you are corrrect.
Monty
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 826
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 2:25 pm: |
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Hi Monty
Firstly, were the hell have you been?
I'm always around... I comment then like Michelle of the Resistance I disappear like a phantoom into the night!
It seems you are corrrect.
Aren't I always?  Actually I looked into the whole pub opening hours thing some time ago when I was looking at the whole Schwartz second man thing to figure out if he could have been coming out of Nelson's Beer Shop or not.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me" - Hunter S. Thompson (1939-2005)
Visit my website - http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1931
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:40 am: |
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Hey Spurs Al,
You missed the secondly.
Paul Begg put me onto that news report when I was reseaching the lighting situation for my joint article with How (The Great Goulston Street Debate) in the Rip.
C,mon Leadley.
Monty
PS What the hell is a Phantoom?
Four candles.....you know, handles for forks ! - The Guv'nor
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LizzieLiz
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
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Thats' a lovely quote Monty. Nothing like the old works for taking us back. We need to rely on them absolutley. The public house as a gentle beacon of light for rowdy and vulnerable customers until the early hours. That corresponds with my memory too.
Might I ask which book/article. |
Dustin Gould
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:54 pm: |
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The main disadvantage, of Jack using pubs to pick up prostitutes, is that pubs, are a repository, for future, eyewitness accounts. Sure, they might be intoxicated eyewitnesses. But if enough of their accounts match credibly, then police might be apt to take them more seriously. The fact that many pubs have their own tight-knit community of patron regulars, only makes this possibility more plausible. |
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