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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2641
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 2:08 pm: | 
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I'm absolute rubbish at dates and figures - and this has probably been done many times before - but can anyone tell me the days of the week the accepted victims of the Whitechapel Murderer were done to death? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5134
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 2:30 pm: |
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AP, taking the early hours of a day to be on that day, we have
Tabram - Tuesday
Nichols - Friday
Chapman - Saturday
Stride and Eddowes - Sunday
Kelly - Friday
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2643
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
very helpful.
I was looking at market days in Whitechapel to see if the pattern fitted.
Many different markets.
Hay & Straw Market was Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, on the Whitechapel High Street.
What happens when you expand the victim count?
Just a little game to play with my brandy. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2644
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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The figures are quite staggering, and it is no wonder that the authorities attempted many times to have the Whitechapel Hay and Straw market moved or closed down.
In one 24 hour period during the LVP the following traffic was recorded on a Thursday Hay Market in Whitechapel:
'Commercial Road. 10,114 vehicle movements. 47,149 people on foot.
Whitechapel High Street. 15,196 vehicle movements. 31,129 people on foot.
Leman Street. 5,219 vehicle movements. 31,195 people on foot.'
This total disregarded people who arrived or left on trains, trams and omnibuses; and it was raining heavily on the day.
Now just try and find Jack amongst that lot.
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1490
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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A.P.
Thanks for those very interesting figures.
My favourite comment about days of the week is that - whereas modern "profilers" seem to deduce the Ripper was in regular employment because the murders took place "at weekends" - in fact Saturday (or at least part of it) would have been a working day for most in 1888.
I suspect the real contrast may be between 3.30-5.30 am on a working day (Nichols, Chapman) and 12.45-1.45 am on a Sunday (Stride, Eddowes), with Kelly fitting in goodness knows where (When was she killed? Was the day of the Lord Mayor's Show a working day?).
Of course, things would be different if the killer was Jewish, but perhaps this is another indication that he wasn't.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2645
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Thanks Chris
but caution is advised here, as a lot of the traffic was involved in the barely legal 'Jew's Markets' which had sprung up in the area.
Personally I don't think modern profilers have a clue, they honestly seem to think that people in Whitechapel in the LVP had a day off.
They didn't, it was a sweat shop.
24-7.
The early morning timings are of interest, but after spending the last year in the Whitechapel of the LVP, I don't believe these folk ever slept.
I mean what kind of woman drags herself out of bed at four or five in the morning for a pint of poison and then can vouch for the whereabouts of half of Whitechapel? |
john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 4:44 am: |
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A.P & Chris
The days the hay and straw market were on seems to tie in with the murders, but if that is the reason behind the days the killings took place it, it could mean that Jack did not live in Whitechapel but resided in the countryside. Coming to Whitechapel on a regular trip could give him the knowledge of the alleys and shortcuts. If, and I stress if, this is the case then identifying Jack is impossible.This ignores the point you already stated, The visitors to the market, Which makes the amount of suspects astronomical.
john
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Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 477
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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A dumb question--
did they actually sell hay and straw at the market? Why did so many people need hay and straw?
I am no historian,for sure, but I know that we (and modern profilers) have so little idea of the realities of life in that period.
Mags
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john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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maria,
the mode of transport was horses, the amount of horses in London must have been thousands, they all need feeding and bedding.
john |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 478
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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John,
DUH !!!!!
Thanks. I guess I should have thought that through a little before I used up precious bandwidth. Sorry, Spry.
Mags
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2646
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 1:45 pm: |
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Thanks folks for all your supportive comments. Here is more:
‘The best paid occupation appears to be prostitution, and it is a melancholy fact that a nest of bad houses in Angel Alley, supported chiefly by the farmers' men who bring the hay and straw to Whitechapel market twice a week, are the cleanest-looking dwellings in the district.’
This quote from ’Ragged London of 1861’ certainly seems to suggest that if we are looking for a killer of prostitutes then we should be looking at the men who most frequently used those prostitutes.
The ’Farmer’s men’.
Levi Richard Bartlett battered his wife to death with a hammer in Whitechapel in 1888 - a case I have featured a couple of times on other threads - but it is his occupation that should interest us.
From ’The Star’, 28th September 1888:
‘Levi Richard Bartlett has had a somewhat remarkable career. His parents were well-to-do people near Billericay in Essex, and he was placed in business by them as a carman. He also became well known as a hay and straw merchant on the Whitechapel market.’
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2647
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 3:35 pm: |
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A view of the Whitechapel Hay Market at:
http://www.bridgeman.co.uk/search/view_image.asp?button=add&image_id=16556 |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 780
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
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I posted one on this board only last week. It's in the Photos Of The East End thread or whatever it's called.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 10:37 pm: |
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AP,
Great stuff! the comment about prostitutes being the best paid is interesting. I'm sure our whores weren't in that category, but it makes me wonder what kind of schedule they kept, meaning were they out day and night taking on 5, 6, 7, or more customers a night, or could they make due with just a few each week because it paid their rent and anything else was gravy. I know that at least one of the victims had no doss money, but I wonder how regularly that happened.
Were our whores the norm, or were they the most desperate, and therefore more vulnerable than others? Out of 1200-1500 East end prostitutes, part-time and full, or whatever numerical statistic is in vogue, were there maybe 2-300 that were destitute not-long-for-this-world, drunken sot whores, and then different echelons of others?
Was MJK a cut above because she had a room, or was she lucky that her beau was giving her some money when he could and she was a part-timer?
Lots of questions. Who has the answers?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti č sempre incinta"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 811
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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someone on a farm would be used to slaughtering and butchering animals |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2650
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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And hiding them.
It was common practise in the LVP to hide anything and everything illegal under the hay in the thousands of hay carts that trundled around Whitechapel late at night.
I haven’t found a dead body yet, but here is a living one from the transcripts of the Old Bailey:
‘Prisoner. Q. Was I under the hay, or sitting on two trusses? A. You were under the hay: I could not see you till I pulled the hay off - I pulled my pistol out before he asked if I had one;’
And here is a sack of oats which could have easily been a torso:
‘JOSEPH GREENER . I am a watchman of Staines. On the 22d of January I returned home from my beat, and, in consequence of some suspicion, I changed my clothes, and went back to my beat, and saw the prisoner in a yard, with a sack on his shoulder; I asked what he had got - he said a sack of oats he had brought from Mr. Dexter's - I ran to see if any body was up at Dexter's, but they were all in bed; I returned and saw him putting the sack into a cart, and covering it with some hay - he then went away,’
It was actually stolen goods, but…
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Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 712
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 8:07 pm: |
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Hi,
However, there are no reports of carts of any sort in connection to the murders. It's possible, I suppose, that Jack leaves his cart somewhere, murders, mutilates, heads back over some unknown distance (but far enough that his cart is not later associated with the murder), and hides his trophies under the hay/straw.
But I can recall no report, even newspaper report, that indicates such a connection. The large number of carts and such should be considered though, but perhaps at the moment it should be considered as something to "look out for".
On the other hand, this might suggest some ideas in relation to the torso murders with respect to how those bodies were transported. Since those victims appeared to have been killed in a location other than where they were found, transport of some sort was probably required.
- Jeff |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 812
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
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I want to get clear how this worked. The farmers brought straw and hay which they had produced into town in bales on the back of horsedrawn carts. Then they went to this haymarket and sold it to the residents of London to feed their horses with? I am a nonagricultural person so I am a bit dim about this stuff. Or did the farmers who grew hay bring it into town to sell it to the farmers who didn't grow hay? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2652
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:18 am: |
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Yes, the idea that a hay cart could have been used in the Torso Murders is attractive, and realistic; but as already pointed out cannot be applied to the Whitechapel Murders as all the evidence appears to indicate that all the victims were killed where found.
However that brings us back to the case of Mary Jane Kelly, who I still believe fits in more smoothly with the Torso Murders; and it is perhaps in this one case alone where such a hay cart may have been intended for disposal… if we can see the crime as an interrupted one, which I know most can’t.
There were certainly carts in Dorset Street early that morning:
‘I was up again and down stairs in the court at 5.30am but saw no one except two or three carmen harnessing their horses in Dorset Street.’
(inquest testimony, Elizabeth Prater.)
Taking into account the enormous vehicle traffic I discovered from the Whitechapel Hay Market - over 15,000 vehicle movements in one Whitechapel street alone in a 24 hour period, I would say that much of this traffic had probably been recorded at night.
I shall attempt to find more reports on this traffic to see if I can’t dig out an hour by hour record for the day in question as the segments would allow us to say just how many carts might have been moving around Whitechapel at any given time of day.
The carters I will look at as well, but it should be remembered that much of the hay at market would have been harvested within London itself from the public and private parks, meadows and commons. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2653
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Just a few quotes concerning carts and wagons in connection with the Whitechapel & Torso Murders.
All from The Times:
September 11th 1888.
‘On Saturday morning, between half past four and six, several carts must have passed through Hanbury-street, and at five on the opening, Spitalfields Market was blocked with market vehicles.’
That statement does seem to indicate that vehicles would have been making their way to the market in the very early hours of the morning.
July 18th 1889.
‘The street (Castle Alley) is blocked up, both day and night with tradesmen’s carts and wagons.’
September 11th 1889.
‘Carts and barrows stand against the walls.’ (Pinchin-street).
February 16th 1891.
‘This archway (Swallow gardens) is much used by carts and horses.’
I think that sometimes many of us get stuck into the groove of imagining the streets of Whitechapel to have been deserted at the time of the murders. The impression I get already is that there would have been almost constant vehicle traffic - mostly in connection with the markets - but I have still yet to find some exact figures.
I will though. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 814
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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He must have found it quite a challenge to get them alone then.
You think most of the hay came from London itself? Then we probably aren't looking at a farmer after all? Who would have done this park and common harvesting? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2654
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
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A bit of both, Diana.
‘Whitechapel was bigger than the other two. Most of its hay came from Essex, Hertfordshire and the Isle of Sheppey, some by barge and some by rail, being trans-shipped to merchants’ waggons at Broad Street station. Merchants such as Gardner & Gardner went to the country to purchase hay, either direct from farmers or in country markets such as Chelmsford.’
‘Farming in Epping
Interview with Mr Norman Pegrum at Shaftesbury Farm, Lindsey Street February 1999
'My grandfather farmed here in 1880 by agreement with Mr Ernest Wythes of Bickley in Kent. James Wythes was his grandson. There was 101 acres and as this was about 4 or 5 years after the agricultural depression, he was the only one of a family of 6 sons to stay in farming. My grandparents themselves had nine children.
Arable farming had suffered due to foreign imports following the repeal of the Corn Laws. He was about 30 when he came to Epping. He had practised in the hay trade at the Haymarket in Whitechapel by London Hospital. Three mornings a week they sent the hay up on a horse and cart, and sold it on a commission basis. The hay was always delivered to the buyer on the same day. There was quite a considerable haycart traffic between Epping and London. On 'Upnights' they left for London at 2 a.m. 'Downnights' they returned with the empty carts.’
I have found farmers as far away as Liverpool sending hay carts to the Whitechapel market, equally so somewhere I did find the figures for local hay production in London and will post them when studied along with some traffic figures that I’ve hauled out of the haywain.
I liked the ’Upnights’ & ’Downnights’.
Perhaps Jack had them as well. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 815
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
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So he killed on upnights? or downnights? If downnights he wouldn't have had any hay left to hide anything in. And when did he have time to kill people when all the hay had to be delivered the same day it was bought?
he would have had to sell it, then kill somebody before he made the delivery so he would have the hay to hide things in, then deliver the hay (what did he do with his trophies then?) and then high tail it for home before they decided he was lollygagging. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2658
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 5:20 pm: |
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Diana
sorry but you groucho-marxed me there.
What I'm trying to say is that the person with the cart is not always the person who originated the hay.
Carts laden with hay were left all over Whitechapel late at night ready for the market next early morning.
I have yet to find a dead body in one, but here is a live one for you:
'In his book Night and Day, Thomas Barnardo described how he discovered about the problem of homeless children in London when he met Jim Jarvis.
One evening, the attendants at the Ragged School had met us usual, and at about half past nine o'clock were separating from their homes. A little lad, whom we had noticed listening very attentively during the evening, was amongst the last to leave, and his steps were slow and unwilling.
"Come, my lad, had you better get home? It's very late. Mother will be coming for you."
"Please sir, let me stop! Please let me stay. I won't do no harm."
"Your mother will wonder what kept you so late."
"I ain't got no mother."
"Haven't got a mother, boy? Where do you live?"
"Don't live nowhere."
"Well, but where did you sleep last night?"
"Down in Whitechapel, sir, along the Haymarket in one of them carts as is filled with hay; and I met a chap and he telled me to come here to school, as perhaps you'd let me lie near the fire all night."
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 5:34 pm: |
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Is it (or isn't it) interesting that carmen discovered the bodies of two of the Ripper's victims? Maybe they were just up early, but I wonder...
Chris Phillips
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 816
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Can we define carman precisely? this is fascinating. I want to stay aboard. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2659
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Personally I was fascinated to find clear evidence that the poorer folk of Whitechapel when unable to find a bed for the night would doss down under the hay of the many hay carts that were obviously left in the street for the night ready for the early morning Hay Market.
What strikes me then, is that when we are tracking the last movements and intended final destination of the victims - who clearly had no bed for the night - is that these women may well have been heading towards the streets where the hay carts were parked overnight, to see if they could bed down in the hay.
This could very well explain away the many mysteries associated with the last known movements of the victims.
And here I think in particular of Catherine Eddowes.
I'll check 'carmen' out for you, Diana. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5143
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 3:10 pm: |
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I thought this might be of use, from
http://www.victorianlondon.org/
CARMEN AND COAL-HEAVERS.
SWARTH, hard-handed Labour has more votaries in London than any other city in the whole wide- rounded compass of the world; great, grave, weighty men, with that old solid Saxon cast of countenance which gives such an earnest and serious appearance to all their actions, and who are no more capable of capering, shouting, and dancing round trees of Liberty, like our volatile neighbours, than elephants. Even drinking and smoking, with such men as these, is one of the sober businesses of life - rest after labour; and they look upon it to be as necessary as either eating or sleeping. A glance at their bulk, bone, and sinew, tells you that those limbs were "pastured in England." The loads some of these men carry would break an ordinary back - they might have served their apprenticeship with Atlas, and began business by first bearing heavy worlds upon their shoulders.
First amongst these stands the Carman - the Mercury of our merchants; he brings the "gifts the gods provide us" to our very doors. To his keeping ships consign their cargoes, at his bidding the heavy railway trucks are emptied, and he bears into our streets luxuries for which the ocean has been ploughed, treasures for which the mine has been searched through its deep darkness, and comforts for which hill and valley, with [-66-] all their waving corn, hanging fruit, and lowing flocks and herds, have been plundered. No marvel that with such a trust he walks erect, carries his whip somewhat jauntily, and looks with a proud eye at his horses - subjects who obey his very nod, and, unlike the human wicked world, never entertain a thought of dethroning him. Look at his boots - heavy although they are, they are neatly laced, and fit him like gloves; he prides himself on his r6unded and well-shaped leg; and there is a kind of natural dignity in his measured march, as he paces stride for stride beside his beautiful and high-fed horses. He seems to have been distinguished for his musical taste before the time of Shakspere, for the poet tells us that Shallow, when of Clement's Inn, sung such tunes as "the carmen whistled." In this he has not degenerated, and you may often catch a stray note while following him, though the tune, like his own pace, is solemn and slow. He is a good husband and an indulgent father, and when the weather is fine and his load light, and his journey extends to some distant suburb, you will often see his wife and children, who waited at some appointed place, accompanying him. Sometimes he lets his little son carry the long whip. and walk beside him for a short space, and his heart dilates as he pictures, in that chubby specimen of small humanity, a future Carman like himself. He seldom uses his whip, unless to crack it, for he has a brief, gruff, peculiar method of saying "Now, then," which never fails to quicken the pace of his horses when he sees them lagging. Even when his work is up-hill, and with a heavy load, he trusts more to a few encouraging words and friendly pats, at every necessary halt, than he does to the lash, for between him and his horses [-67-] there is somehow a silent understanding. If there is one thing more than another about which he makes a little extra display, it is his delivery-book, which fastens with a brass clasp, and is carried in a pocket, made purposely, within the left-hand side of his jacket. This book he is rather fond of pulling out, and apparently cogitating over its contents, although all the entries he has to look after are the signatures of the receivers. The marks and figures are strange puzzles to him at times, and convey no more notion of what he has delivered, than an hieroglyphic whose meaning is buried in the bye-gone nights of Egyptian darkness. He also takes great pride in furbishing the ornaments of his harness, and is as particular about not tarnishing the lustre of the respectable "House" to which he belongs, as the confidential clerk who presides over the office. He rarely calls his employers masters, but speaks of them as "Our Firm."
A thorough London Carman is very "knowing" in localities; and if a toll can be avoided, and he is not pressed for time, he is as sure to "do the pike" as a cabman who has bargained to carry his fare home and clear the gates. He is invariably attended by a dog, which might have been trained by Ducrow, for it is capable of riding upon anything, from a cask to the end of a sugar-cane, and all it seems to delight in is balancing itself on all kinds of imaginable things, and barking at every object that passes; for which purpose it is eternally running from one end of the vehicle to the other, like some poor fellow who is endeavouring to take up a dishonoured bill by getting his own acceptance discounted - with this difference, that the dog does all the barking and growling, while the other [-68-] finds it thrown in gratis. The Carman is fondly attached to his dog, and rarely takes a meal without allowing him to share in it. He is very kind to any poor brother of the whip whom he sees tugging up-hill in vain, with a weighty load and an ill-fed team; it needs but little persuasion to induce him to unyoke one or two of his own powerful horses and rush in to the rescue. We have seen many of these little kindnesses done in the hilly streets of the City; and we have drawn strange conclusions from them. In a few words, my rich and aristocratical masters! we have thought that if a few of you acted to your fellow-men as the Carmen do to one another in need, the foundations of Europe would not be jarring to the very centre, as they are now. Place a helping hand upon a willing heart, my friends, and the very beating of its gratitude will so stir your sluggish souls, that you will feel as if cutting your pen-feathers and getting ready-winged for immortality. We have seen a soul in the silent shaking of the hands between two Carmen, when one has rendered the other aid as we have described, which would have put to shame all the studied return of thanks ever showered forth after the "sacking" of England in Exeter Hall, to bring up unbelieving "black babbies" for gospel sucklings, and to pave the way to heaven with gold for the strong-haired "niggers." A poor old wayfarer has but to ask the Carman for a lift, and if he is one of those whose heart is in the right place, he will pull up by the roadside, and be thought none the worse of by his employers for his kindness. For passing to and fro, as he ever is doing, along the stirring streets, or in the dusty suburbs, he sees Splendour seated in her chariot and squalid Misery [-69-] crawling and bent with age and hunger upon the pavement; and although he says but little, he thinks the more, and thanks God that he is a Carman, and wishes that the poor people were as comfortable as his horses.
He is an unmerciful denouncer of idleness, and thinks that those who are able and will not work ought not to eat. His politics are taken from the Advertiser and Dispatch; and although he is an out-and-out liberal in his notions, yet he is sensible enough to know that it is all nonsense about all men being equal. "Because as how," he says, "I knows them what if they had a thousand to-morrow would never do a hand-stir until every farthing of it was spent." Then he has no end of apt and homely illustrations - how Bill this, and Jack that, and Jem the other, had all such chances as no man had before, and although the bread was, "as the saying is, put into their mouths, howsomdever they were too lazy to eat it." He is gallant enough to say that he should not like to see his young "missus" go out to work, "because as how she s been brought up a lady, and shows so much feeling for the horses." There are touches of delicacy about his character, such as "not" seeing the poor fellows who drag trucks about the streets lay hold of his cart or waggon, or it maybe slackening the pace of his horses when the men come panting up behind, attempting in vain to overtake him; nor would they ever succeed were it not for the word "gently" which only the horses hear, for he pretends not to notice the party thus assisted. We are drawing one of the most favourable of the class - one who seldom changes masters. There are others who delight in carrying off a wheel, if they can manage it [-70-] nicely; who rap out an oath loud enough to electrify a nervous, man, and lay their whips on everything that comes in their way. Such as these the poet Gay describes running into the "gilded chariots, and
Lashing on with spiteful rage
His ponderous spokes the painted wheels engage;
Crushed then is pride, down falls the shrieking beau,
The slabby pavement crystal fragments strew;
Black floods of mire the embroidered coat disgrace,
And mud enwraps the honours of his face."
Sketches Of London Life and Character, by Albert Smith et. al., [1849]
Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2662
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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Ah, Robert that was when men were men, but they soon became rogues...
And they hauled hay.
Here they are from 1888:
January 5th 1888.
James Marsden, 22, carman.
Indecently assaulting two little girls in Whitechapel in circumstances too 'shameful' to report.
January 11th 1888.
George Panton, carman for a hay and straw dealer in the Whitechapel Market. Cruelty to his employer's horses.
But this is the boy:
November 6th 1888.
John William Cooper, carman of Commercial Street, Spitalfields, stabbed his wife, Eliza, twice just below the heart and once in the back before she fled the house.
This only from a rushed search which I plan to do again when I have more time.
The point that Chris raised above is interesting as carman do appear often in the witness files of murder, but then again I suppose they would? |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1511
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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While we're on carmen, it's worth remembering another of Dan Farson's weird letters, purportedly from the son of the Ripper who had emigrated to Australia, which alleged that the killer's job was transporting manure to Covent Garden via Elephant and Castle (and that he hid from the police by burying himself in his load one day!).
Farson didn't give it any particular credence, though Colin Wilson thought it had a "ring of truth", and suggested it might be worth trying to follow the clues in the letter, which were certainly plentiful. (The civil registration records of Victoria are online if anyone wants to try, though I had a look some time ago, and couldn't find a match.)
I also thought it was interesting because Nichols was killed so close to a manure works.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2663
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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Chris, I’d forgotten all about that.
Meanwhile because I’ve been drinking, a quiz:
What was the most famous Whitechapel body that was hidden under hay in a hay cart?
A library copy of the Myth to the winner.
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 818
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
|
The only problem I have with them lying down in hay is that it tends to stick to you (unless British hay is different  ). We don't read anything about pieces of hay stuck in their clothes or hair. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2665
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
|
Good point, Diana.
Hay don't stick but straw does.
Hay is for feeding, straw for bedding.
Humans lay in 'clover'.
Horses lay in straw. |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1512
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
|
And manure definitely sticks. Quite a lot of Casebook posters operate on that principle!
Chris Phillips
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 820
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
|
I am not of the agrarian stripe so I really don't understand a lot of this.
My husband was raised on a farm and so I asked him about hay and straw. He explained the distinction to me, viz.: hay is made up of the dried clover plant and is for eating by animals. Straw is dried wheat stalks and is for animal bedding. However he seemed to think that their capacity to stick to clothes and hair would be about equal.
I'm still trying to revise my mental picture of Jack to include a pitchfork, straw hat and overalls. It's difficult. Farmer Jack? |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 151
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 1:23 pm: |
|
Diana,
The poorer quality hay is just green grass with a bit, if any clover in it, oh and some snakes, rats, voles, mice and frogs too (at least where I'm from). I used to bale hay every year because I was forced to, not because I was particulary agrarian.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti č sempre incinta"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2673
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
My resources tell me that hay will stick to a damp or moist body, but straw just sticks to everything. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 823
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
|
So if Jack drove a haywagon, according to all we hear about the idea of "transfer" then he should have had a few pieces stuck to him and a stalk or two should have shown up at least at one crime scene.
If the vics had contact with hay you would hope that at least one of them would have a wisp clinging to her.
Unless Jack was clever enough to pick it all up? |
john wright
Sergeant
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 6:10 am: |
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I found this photo on another site, it's whitechapel haymarket I thought it might be of interest.
john |
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