Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
About the Casebook

 Search:
 

Join the Chat Room!

Men Dressed as Women Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Message Boards » General Discussion » Men Dressed as Women « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1921
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 1:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have always regarded theories which have Jack dressed as a woman to carry out his crimes as pure fantasy, however I have chanced upon a couple of cases which do seem to indicate that girly dressing was not that uncommon during the LVP. I honestly don't think that Jack ran around in petticoats, but when there is evidence that he may have done so it should be honestly examined and explored.
For villians dressing as women please see:
The Times June 4th & August 19th 1879.
(search term: police)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer

Post Number: 565
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 2:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AP--Do you recall the newspaper item I posted stating that Donald Swanson himself believed the Ripper dressed in drag? Certainly an item best swept under the rug, no? That most convenient of all postions---"unreliable newspaper reports"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1923
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, RJ, that one slipped my blasted memory I'm afraid.
I think we all grow up a bit as we are given more and more access to information from the period we are discussing, and in doing so must really dig ouselves out of all these derelict trenches we have dug for ourselves.
It's the respectable and polite thing to do.
The farcical idea of Jack in drag must be reconsidered, as we now know such things happened, perhaps we always knew?
I would love to see Thomas in a skirt waving his toy dagger around!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 4332
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting suggestion, AP, but can we really view all those skirts and petticoats as fence-vaulting gear?

When I try to imagine it, I see Les Dawson.

Robert

(Message edited by Robert on March 31, 2005)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1925
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 3:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert
whatever are you thinking of?
Of course Thomas would have changed his skirts for his trousers before he vaulted the fence, otherwise he may have snagged his knife on a fence post and cut his own throat.
Seriously though, Robert, I don't see Jack in a skirt, but as I did find a few others so inclined I thought it only fair to lift their petticoats and let some air flow over the situation.
Anything has got to be better than imagining or seeing Les Dawson!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr

Post Number: 366
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 6:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A.P., Robert, and Les Dawson,
Other than the confusion of women being used as detectives in Whitechapel,( 1890 New york press)
there was an incident reported in the MANCHESTER WEEKLY TIMES (no doubt copied from London dailies)of 13 October 1888,reporting the Southwark trial of a journalist acting as an amateur detective dressed in women's clothing.
If they could all get into drag, there was nothing to stop JTR. And how reassuringly jolly he would have been to his unsuspecting victims.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert

Post Number: 4336
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 7:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John, I know Monty felt he was going to be like mother, but surely not to the extent of wearing her petticoats?

Robert
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil

Post Number: 299
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 9:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think we need to be careful here.

"Drag" existed in London in the 1880s and at high levels of society - for instance the Hundred Guineas Club. Lads not much different to those involved in the Cleveland St affair seem to have been employed dressed up as women, for the benefit of rich (older) men.

"Sins of the Cities of the Plain" said to be based on fact and sometimes said to have been penned by Wilde (I think not) expands on this.

I have always taken the references to coppers and others dressing up in women's clothes to help try to catch the Ripper, as indicating that they were NOT very convincing.

"Jill" the Ripper is not a theory I have ever warmed to though.

Phil
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kelly Robinson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kelly

Post Number: 143
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recall reading that Jesse James and his gang dressed as women once to infiltrate a bordello and attack some officers that they knew to be there. I wonder how convincing they were?
-K
"The past isn't over. It isn't even past."
William Faulkner
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer

Post Number: 568
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AP--"When the police surgeon, Dr. Phillips, arrived the woman was found stiff in death, she having breathed her last while the search for the murderer was being made.
The police declare, of course, that none but "Jack the Ripper" was guilty, and that the arrival of the constable prevented the usual mutilation which he has hitherto indulged in.
The spot where the body was found is a favorite resort for women at night, two having been arrested there for loitering early Thursday evening.
Inspector Swanson says that any ruffian might have cut the unfortunate woman's throat in the way that this was done, but when a second soft felt hat rolled from under the victim's arm, in addition to the one she wore, he felt that this must have been done by the "Ripper." The theory has long been that he paraded in woman's attire, and Swanson thinks he dropped the hat while struggling with his victim. Commissioner Sir Edward Bradford professes to be confident that he will unearth the murderer of "Carroty Nell," and the public hopes he will.


The article was reprinted on Feb 14, 1891, evidently from a correspondent stationed in London.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 1928
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for posting that RJ.
Yes, I do think a more serious effort should be made in regard to this subject.
Lady Florence Dixie was attacked in 1883 by supposed Fenians dressed as women, causing much anguish to Her Majesty and that herbert, the Crown Prince... she was stabbed.
That was around March 20th 1883.
But even more interesting - and worthy of far more research - is the strange case of William Cave, poultry dealer, who was appehended by the police in Hammersmith in December 1888 after 'bothering' women on the street, he and his companion were both completely dressed as women, and his male companion had been made-up to resemble a women who had been murdered.
All a bit of fun they said at their trial
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2496
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 3:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

October 10th 1888. The Times.

For the doubters.
Alerted to the fact that the murder of a woman was planned for that night, DPS Robinson dressed as a woman stationed himself in Phoenix Street that night, and was set upon by a gang of Whitechapel roughs who mistook him for a...
woman.
When he attempted to explain that he was an undercover police officer they really laid into him then.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 939
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 5:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A.P.

In the April 2005 edition of main man Dan Norder's Ripper Notes, there is a good story written by Mr.Bernard Brown that discusses DC John Charles Robinson and his adventures [ got lumped up and stabbed near the eye one month before MJK's murder for dressing up a little too convincingly..].

Stabbed near the eye? Whew ! That must have been a drag...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf

Post Number: 2498
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks How,
My main problem is that I don't read anymore.
Well, not in this century anyway.
I read the LVP, and that is it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 943
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 6:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A.P.

You know that I know that you know that I know how to make a buck...so lets see here...hmm...

How about a collation of some of the materials you have shared here on the site recently ...send 'em to Dan....he prints 'em.....and then not only will he bend over backwards with a huge chunk o' change...but also send you a copy, gratis, of that April 2005 magazine ?

Its a win-win scenario....and everyone will remember it was my idea ! Is I smart or what?

Or I can just mail you a copy?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag

Post Number: 458
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pretty unusual for a man not to have a moustache or some sort of facial hair during that time.A quick look through the photo sections of a couple of books shows me only 2 men who didn't. One of them is the cleanshaven and rather "pretty" Walter Sickert.

Uh oh.
Mags
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder

Post Number: 889
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 11, 2005 - 9:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi AP,

Bernard Brown's description of the incident with PC Robinson does not have the men mistaking him for a woman but wondering what on earth a man was doing in women's clothes and following another woman, attacking after he announced that he was a police constable.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile    Email    Dissertations    Website

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Register now! Administration

Use of these message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use. The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping. The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements. You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.