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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1730
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 3:01 pm: | 
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I sometimes think that we might not really understand just how difficult life was for an ‘unfortunate’ out on the streets of Whitechapel in the LVP, so I thought this sad little case a useful insight into attitudes of social responsibility in those hard times.
Elizabeth had the blanket pinned around her because she was cold.
For that she got seven years transportation, and like many she probably didn’t survive the voyage.
Enjoy:
‘1886. ELIZABETH BROADWAY was indicted for stealing, on the 15th of September, 1 blanket, value 4s., the goods of the Overseers for the time being, of the parish of St. Mary, Islington.
THOMAS WESTON. I am master of Islington work-house. The prisoner was a pauper there - I missed a blanket off her bed last Saturday.
MARY HATTON. I was at Islington work-house last Saturday, and saw the prisoner with this blanket pinned round her.
THOMAS COPE. Hatton gave me information - I took the blanket from the prisoner.
JOSEPH BIRCH. I saw the blanket found on her.
GUILTY. Aged 38.
Transported for Seven Years.’
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4080
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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AP, I once saw workhouse inmates given hard labour for destroying their own clothes (they ripped up the clothes they were wearing).
Robert |
Adam Went
Inspector
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:11 am: |
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AP, trust me, that is minor compared to some of the things that I have read.
In Tasmania, Australia, there is Port Arthur, and that is where, for a long time, convicts sent from England, etc were taken to. I have been to Port Arthur and seen the old buildings, etc - it is really an eerie place, but very interesting at the same time. They do night tours there, and it is reputed to be haunted.
But anyway, not so long ago a "Convict walk" was built along the pavement of a town called Campbell Town, pretty much in the middle of Tasmania. Descendants of convicts sent here could purchase a brick, which would go on the convict walk and would carry their names, the ship they were sent on, how long their sentence was, and what they were sentenced for.
Anyway, we went to the opening of it, because we have a convict ancestor.
He was sent here from England for 7 years for Stealing a desk/table. But that's not the worst of it!
While we were walking along the street, reading some of these bricks, one caught my attention. A woman (I forget her name now, but I knew it at the time) was sent down here...She was sentenced to LIFE for stealing 2 SHAWLS. That's right. Life down here for stealing 2 shawls. That was just shocking, I couldn't believe it.
So that might give you some more idea of what the system was like back then. It was indeed a hard time.
Regards,
Adam.
"Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once."
- Kirsten Cooke,"Allo' Allo'"
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 129
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:07 am: |
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Just a word about judging the past by today's standards or aspirations.
As a historian, I would argue strongly that we will never understand the past while judging it, or without seeking to appreciate WHY they did what they did.
Life was cruel in past - even for the innocent let alone the guilty. As one historian has put it, the "tortures" of the middle ages and later - burnings, the rack, hanging, drawing and quartering, possibly transportation - had a reason. Life was painful for many people before modern drugs and the only way the just could feel "superior" to the criminal, was if the latter suffered cruelly.
It was also an age when much depended on the possession of property, so theft was something more worrying today. Look at the way the Wild West regarded cattle rustling.
As I understand it, the Victorians did not want a "dependent" population - or people living in workhouses as an alternative to independence. So they made life in workhouses as unpleasant and harsh as possible to ensure that only the absolutely needy resorted to them. Hence their severity with theft from workhouses.
Similar debates continue today, as with US and European attitudes and approaches to welfare. Say the word socialist in the USA and see how much support it gains you from Republican or Democrat alike.
Phil |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1743
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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Phil
you are of course right, but some of us old drama queens like to squeak about such things.
After spending months looking through the Old Bailey transcripts I am presuaded that there was a massive divide between how gentry and street 'scum' were treated by the legal mechanism of the LVP. Gentleman often raped very young children and got away with it by proving that they were gentlemen, by the simple process of trooping several lords, retired officers, a few 'sirs' and a number of 'ladies' though the witness box as character props.
It worked.
I can post a couple of gross examples of this if you wish.
On the other hand we have cases where a young boy of twelve has picked up a hanky in the street - dropped by a gentlemen - and as a consequnce of has been transported for life to the colonies.
The real bummer in that case was that the hanky was used.
So yes, you are right, very right, but it would also be wrong to ignore the very real issue of the massive social divide in the LVP and how social standing dictated punishment.
I never did hear of a 'gentleman' being transported.
Adam, I really enjoyed your personal account of your experiences.
Going tell us what your convict ancestor did?
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Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 130
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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I did not say one should say that the past wasn't appalling, but future generations may think some of the things we do today equally damning.
Money still talks, even if class does not nowadays. Justice can still be strange.
But when history is understood from its own perspective, there are sometimes reasons for these things - social cohesion, leadership, the economics of utilising land, can all mean that in times past, crimes against land, property or the person, were perceived as being of more importance than social crimes.
ironically, the common man in the not too distant past, would probably have been horrified at the thought of revolution and a change to the social order, because certainty and security would be lost and those things were important to him.
When Tsarism was swept away, was Stalinism an improvement, for all its supposed communism and equality?
Slavery lasted longer in the "free" USA than in so-called "liberal" England - even though the former had sought independence from British tyranny!! In fact American colonials were more conservative than their former rulers in many ways.
I simply urge that we allow the past to be the past and not engage in rather meaningless comparisons.
Good post AP.
Phil |
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:26 am: |
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My last post wasn't that clear so here's another; these punishments result from the defendants having appeared and been warned umpteen times, or suspected of association to larger matters.
The punishments described above were not handed out (as described above) just for the one offence.
If you looked at the Whitechapel victims' criminal records you would get a better picture.
Read your Dickens! |
Joan Taylor
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:20 am: |
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These punishments result from a long line line of convictions for this and that. If you look sensibly at the abundant material you can see such punishments are not the norm atall for petty offenders, but it does indeed show what rich magistrates were quite prepared to do. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1745
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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Thanks Phil
your point concerning social pressure dictating punishment is the crutch piece of the debate.
Hence 'transportation' as the vogue in the LVP, it did alleviate the enormous social pressure that the lower classes represented to the upper classes, and at the same time served the crucial ambitions of the British Empire to colonise at any price.
We must remember that those punished thus went on to form some of the greatest nations in our present age.
It is I suppose the paradox of Empire.
Joan
please rest assured that when I look at criminal cases from the LVP I do take into account previous criminal convictions in the individual concerned and would certainly mention them, if they existed. |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 131
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:55 am: |
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AP - surely we STILL have the debate, in the Uk at least. Over whether penalties fit crimes; over the death penalty; over what punishment, especially prison is FOR (ie intended to do). Are we into retribution or rehabilitation? Opinions can differ strongly.
In say Britain in the C18th, there was great fear of the "mob" especially in the larger cities - Gordon Riots etc, and much law was intended to keep the mob in its place.
I see no value in bringing questions of upper and lower classes into the argument, except in recognising them as a social element. That was the way society was structured then, and by and large it worked.
One day modern equality might be looked on askance _ I don't know. I do know we have no right to even suggest that we are in some way morally superior to our forebears, or that somehow all paths have led to modern perfection.
Phil |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1749
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
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Again I can't argue with your valid point, Phil, you are most certainly right, but as I said before some of us old drama queens like to crow now and then.
My personal view is that the social divides of the LVP were a lot better than the blurred blending of the modern age, but I'm a person obsessed with a biological view of society rather than a social one, so don't be too critical about that viewpoint of mine.
The social structure of the LVP certainly worked a lot better than our own, but I still feel it is an important distinction - in that particular period of time - when looking at crimes to take into account the social background of the individual concerned and then apply that to the punishment handed out.
It sort of makes sense then.
Without that criteria I do find myself somewhat at a loss when looking at criminal cases during the LVP.
Modern perfection only exists in a termite colony. |
Phil Hill
Detective Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:21 pm: |
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I think you and I might share a common world-view AP, and hold a lot of similar views.
Phil |
Adam Went
Inspector
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 171
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 5:01 am: |
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Hi AP,
You wrote:
"Adam, I really enjoyed your personal account of your experiences.
Going tell us what your convict ancestor did?"
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not sure what you mean by the question?
Are you asking what he was sent over here as a convict for?
If so, he was sent over here for 7 years for stealing a table/desk. He was my G-G-G Grandfather, and I believe he was sent over here in the 1850's. His name was Charles Plumley, though unfortunately there was a mistake on the brick we had laid for him on the convict walk I spoke about, and it said Charles Plunley. But, no biggey.
A lot of people have convict ancestors, and the streets on the day of the opening of the walk were pretty well packed. They even sold t-shirts for the event, and there was an old 1880's merry-go-round there, still in it's oldish-looking condition.
Anyone who cares to go to the town and walk along the pavement can do so, and take a glimpse at what sort of life it was for many people back in the 1800's. It only took a stolen hankerchief or a loaf of bread to feed their family, and they would be sent over here. It was indeed a 'hard time'.
Regards,
Adam.
"Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once."
- Kirsten Cooke,"Allo' Allo'"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1755
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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Thanks Adam
it is always refreshing to hear personal accounts of the convicts.
Although it must have been really hard for the original convicts they certainly left behind a comfortable and enviable lifestyle for their great great great grandchildren, and for me it would be a source of pride to have an original convict as a GGG grandfather.
Thanks for that. |
Adam Went
Inspector
Username: Adamw
Post Number: 173
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 3:49 am: |
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Hi AP,
No problems. Glad you enjoyed it.
It certainly is a subject of fascination these days, and as I mentioned before, there are many people around with convict ancestors. It's great that the original buildings at Port Arthur have been preserved as best as possible, and they are a large tourist attraction.
And yes, you're right, it was a horrible lifestyle for the people of the time, but atleast it's thanks to them that their descendants have a pretty good lifestyle.
And thankfully times have changed since then!!
Regards,
Adam.
"Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once."
- Kirsten Cooke,"Allo' Allo'"
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1940
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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This one is a classic.
Four men attempt to rape a woman - who is drunk and of 'unfortunate' habits - but she fights back so well that the men eventually throw her into a mine-shaft and kill her.
They get 18 months each, for murder.
The Times, Jan 2nd 1844. |
Nicole Gaylard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
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I stumbled upon this website/ thread while doing some family history on the net. I know this is a very old thread but I thought this may be of interest to someone. In the original post by AP WOLF, he quotes the following Old Bailey case: 1827. ELIZABETH BROADWAY was indicted for stealing, on the 15th of September, 1 blanket, value 4s., the goods of the Overseers for the time being, of the parish of St. Mary, Islington.
THOMAS WESTON. I am master of Islington work-house. The prisoner was a pauper there - I missed a blanket off her bed last Saturday.
MARY HATTON. I was at Islington work-house last Saturday, and saw the prisoner with this blanket pinned round her.
THOMAS COPE. Hatton gave me information - I took the blanket from the prisoner.
JOSEPH BIRCH. I saw the blanket found on her.
GUILTY. Aged 38.
Transported for Seven Years.’
For that she got seven years transportation, and like many she probably didn’t survive the voyage.
Elizabeth was my great x4 grandmother. She did survive the voyage and lived well into her 70's. I'm sure she was eventually thankful that she was transported! |
Nicholas Smith
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diddles
Post Number: 76
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 4:49 am: |
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Interesting stuff.
Tasmania is littered with remnants of old convict buildings, bridges and things. Whe I was living there back in '64-'68 we visited Port Arthur and knocked off a convict brick whick had a thumbprint in the corner. Evidently the convicts did this to every 100th brick they made so they could keep track of how many they made.
Anyway, this brick made it's way back to our place in Glenorchy and we brought it with us To Melbourne when we moved to Australia. I used to keep it in my top cupboard until one day it fell out and hit my mother on the head giving her a case of concussion.
Many other stories abound about people who have taken things from sites like these none the least Australia's Ularu 0 Ayres Rock, a sacred Aboriginal site. Over the years people who have taken rocks from this place have run into varying forms of misfortune and as a result have sent the rocks back, one of which weighed about 10kg.
Australia was just one of many places convicts were sent to, America being another transportation country. Does antone from over there have stories like these?
Jules |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2718
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 4:27 am: |
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Thought I would share some more hard times with you.
This is probably the most appalling thing I ever read in my life.
In March 1888, Teresa Smith, 24 of Whitechapel punished her five year old boy for committing a ‘fault’.
She cut his head open with a quart pot, threw him to the ground where she forced him to eat his own ‘filth’, heated up a poker on a fire until was red hot then held it to the child’s lower back for three long minutes, knocked him down again, jumped on him with ‘all her force’, picked him up and smashed his head against the door with such violence that the neighbours were awoken and then bit a chunk of flesh out of the boy’s arm.
Whitechapel was a grim old place. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5176
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 7:19 am: |
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Hi AP
The amazing thing is that this seems to have prompted no "moral debate," no mass outrage, no inquiry into the kind of people and the kind of conditions existing in that area.
It took the murder of several prostitutes, left with their private parts showing (horror!), to set the cat amongst the pigeons.
Remember the big "debate" we were all supposed to have about the Bulger atrocity? Lasted five minutes.
There are three ways of getting to sleep :
1. Take a sleeping pill.
2. Take two bottles of Scotch.
3. Take out British nationality.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2720
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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Quite right, Robert.
You forgot the easiest way to fall asleep though: listen to a Ripposaur at conference.
What disturbed me most about the above incident was that for the entire duration of the torture of the poor child there were other adult witnesses in the same room.
And they did nothing.
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 841
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
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As awful as it was, lets not tar the whole British nation with it. Remember that Whitechapel was not the nicest part of GB. Every country has places that harbor the less civilized.
It wasn't too much later that Charles Dickens, an Englishman created Tiny Tim of a Christmas Carol, and Pip of "Please sir can I have more?" fame.
It was an English Victorian lady who wrote "Black Beauty" advocating kindness to animals.
There were voices crying in the wilderness.
I don't believe Whitechapel was the norm.
BTW I am American. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5180
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
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Diana, I thought it was Oliver who wanted more?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2727
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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No Robert, that was Radka.
This is another belter.
In October 1885 an 18 year old Austrian girl working as a servant in a Church Lane, Whitechapel eating-house is savagely beaten and sexually assaulted - she may well have been raped - by 28 men whilst the landlord and landlady of the establishment cheer them on.
Reason?
She had told the landlady that the eating-house was a bit rough for her nature and she was leaving their employment. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 842
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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It was Oliver, sorry. I hope, AP, that somebody was punished? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2768
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Diana
the mother Teresa Smith, who treated her own child in the manner described got 18 months.
I'll check the punishment details for the other case. |
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